# Israel invades Gaza Strip?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434 "2006-06-28T02:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/181 "2006-07-02T18:26:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s not an issue of collective responsibility. How not? This one plant provides power to most of the Gaza Strip, depriving the locals of water and electricity in the middle of summer in a very hot climate. The populace at large is being punished for the actions of a few. > [@](#): > > And your story doesn’t touch on the opening of the Karni passage and its use for humanitarian needs. I’ve searched the thread for ‘Karni’ and come up empty. Link, please? > [@](#): > > And the last time I checked, electrical stations that could be used by a military forces are legitimate targets of war. [HRW certainly seems to suggest that power stations can be legitmate targets of war in certain circumstances.](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/4.5.htm) Would disrupting C&C abilities and gaining an advantage in night fighting not be a valid military objective? To quote from your link: > [@](#): > > A dual-use object may be a legitimate military target because it makes an “effective contribution to military action” and its destruction offers “a definite military advantage.” **Yet the harm to the civilian population in its destruction may be disproportionate to the expected “concrete and direct military advantage,” rendering an attack impermissible.** To rescue **one** Israeli solder, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. If ‘disproportionate’ is to have any meaning at all, it’s got to kick in here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/182 "2006-07-02T18:38:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > To quote from your link: To rescue **one** Israeli solder . . . Whose captors almost certainly will kill him in retaliation now, the poor fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/183 "2006-07-02T18:41:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > To quote from your link: To rescue **one** Israeli solder, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. Let me rephrase that sentance: To stop constant and indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. To remove the incentive to attack and kidnapp more soldiers, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. To prevent the freeing of over 1,000 terrorists from Israeli jails, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. To diminish Hamas’s standing among the Palestinians, allowing such moderates as abu-Mazen to fill in the power vaccuum in the PA, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. To allow the Israeli public to feel secure enough to make more territorial concessions, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. I admit - it’s pretty harsh. But given what Israel’s trying to achieve her, not at all disproportionate. It was never about one soldier. As to your earlier comment about collective punishment going out with WW2, that is simply untrue. Like it or not, virtually every conflict since the second world war has included collective punishment. It has always been a basic componant of warfare, and as much as we like to think the world has changed in our lifetime… it really hasn’t. Besides, can you tell me of a counterguerilla campaign that has ever been won _without_ resorting to collective punishment? Ever? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/184 "2006-07-02T18:44:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Whose captors almost certainly will kill him in retaliation now, the poor fellow. Are you kidding? To them he’s the most valuable person in the world. Without him, they’ve got nothing, and all the indignities the Palestinians have gone through over the last week have been for nought. No, they’ll take REAL good care of him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/185 "2006-07-02T18:49:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Are you kidding? To them he’s the most valuable person in the world. Without him, they’ve got nothing, and all the indignities the Palestinians have gone through over the last week have been for nought. No, they’ll take REAL good care of him. Ya think? Has the Israeli government even offered to negotiate his release on terms? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/186 "2006-07-02T18:57:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Ya think? Has the Israeli government even offered to negotiate his release on terms? No, but unless the they manage to free him some other way - either by direct action or indirect pressure - eventually they’ll have to nrgotiate for him. We can’t leave a man behind. It’s our Achilles’ heel, and the Arabs know it. Remember, this is the Middle East. _Everything_ is a bargaining ploy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/187 "2006-07-02T19:12:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Let me rephrase that sentance: > > To stop constant and indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. (a) Israelis would never, of course, attack Palestinian civilians by rocket. (b) How many Israelis have been killed and wounded by these attacks? Must be thousands, right? > [@](#): > > To remove the incentive to attack and kidnapp more soldiers, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. (a) It’s not gonna work; it’ll only radicalize them further. It doesn’t take Psych 101 to understand this crap. (b) That, IMHO, translates to, “let’s punish them now for what they might do next.” > [@](#): > > To prevent the freeing of over 1,000 terrorists from Israeli jails, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. When did the Palestinians gain control of Israeli jails? > [@](#): > > To diminish Hamas’s standing among the Palestinians, allowing such moderates as abu-Mazen to fill in the power vaccuum in the PA, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. Yeah, that’ll work as well as when you guys were aiming rockets at Arafat a few years ago, in order to make room for moderates. And look, you got Hamas. Great move, huh? And for some reason, this time you expect a different outcome. > [@](#): > > To allow the Israeli public to feel secure enough to make more territorial concessions, **700,000** Gaza Strip residents are denied power and water in the heat of summer. That’ll work, too. Step 1: get our enemies even madder at us. Step 2: feel less secure because they’re more hostile. … (suddenly a miracle occurs) … Step N: Feel secure enough to make territorial concessions. > [@](#): > > I admit - it’s pretty harsh. But given what Israel’s trying to achieve her, not at all disproportionate. It was never about one soldier. I’ve got another good idea for you: in order to stop hornets from stinging you, give their nest a good whack or two. > [@](#): > > As to your earlier comment about collective punishment going out with WW2, that is simply untrue. Like it or not, virtually every conflict since the second world war has included collective punishment. It has always been a basic componant of warfare, and as much as we like to think the world has changed in our lifetime… it really hasn’t. That was World War **One** , just to clarify things. And it only hasn’t changed because you can’t win asymmetrical wars unless you’re willing to go even further than Western powers are willing to go, but the conventionally stronger power in any asymmetrical conflict will almost always get pissed enough to attack the general population when it cant get at the enemy combatants. > [@](#): > > Besides, can you tell me of a counterguerilla campaign that has ever been won _without_ resorting to collective punishment? Ever? How many counterguerilla campaigns have been won, ever? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/188 "2006-07-02T20:07:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Are you kidding? To them he’s the most valuable person in the world. Without him, they’ve got nothing, and all the indignities the Palestinians have gone through over the last week have been for nought. No, they’ll take REAL good care of him. Why then did they kill Eliahu Asheri ? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/189 "2006-07-02T21:56:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Let’s see … a slower progression would be step one, especially since various Arab politicos and elements within the PA were tryng hard to get those who abducted the soldier to return him. Massing troops, fine. Going in far enough to destroy any tunnels, for sure. Bombing identified training camps. Then wait a few more days. Impress the world with your restraint. Fair enough… I think we may disagree on this point. In my view, if a terrorist organization hits you, you hit back twice as hard as fast as you can. I can respect, though, that we have differing views on how to react to such attacks. > [@DSeid](#): > > Meanwhile this response has served the purposes of the Islamist extremists and made a negotiated solution with an independent and economically viable Palestine even farther out of reach than it already was. Well, a negotiated solution which Hamas is leading, yeah. But that’s been my feeling for some time now. > [@DSeid](#): > > It allows images of Palestinians who had nothing to do with the abduction, children, lining up for water and huddling in hiding, and walking among rubble, to be platered across the world media. Pr’aps I’m inured to the PR war being fought, but your gloss is certainly a valid interpretation that I didn’t really consider. I suppose I’m still focused on the message it sends to terrorists, and not the message it sends to the rest of the world. I’ll ponder a bit, as to be honest, I hadn’t even considered the PR ramifications as anything other than a passing concern. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > How not? Do you not agree that it’s a valid military target? Do the international laws which govern war not allow power plants to be attacked when they’re valid military targets? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’ve searched the thread for ‘Karni’ and come up empty. Link, please? My pleasure, it hasn’t been mentioned in the thread yet. [The Karni Crossing.](http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/LTIO-6R9NQ5?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=ACOS-635PFR) Also known as the Karni Gate. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > (a) Israelis would never, of course, attack Palestinian civilians by rocket. Cite? Or is this the normal conflation of attacking valid military targets who are hiding in civilian areas, and targeting civlians? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > (b) How many Israelis have been killed and wounded by these attacks? Must be thousands, right? So in order for it to be a cassus belli, there must be thousands of deaths? If Mexico started lobbing rockets at Texas, we couldn’t respond militarily until the death toll was up around… how many thousand? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > When did the Palestinians gain control of Israeli jails? Are you serious? Or are you just ignoring the fact that their demands included freeing prisoners wfrom Israeli jails? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’ve got another good idea for you: in order to stop hornets from stinging you, give their nest a good whack or two. Actually, in order to stop the hornets from stinging, you kill the hornets. Even in times of peace, there are terrorist attacks. Even in times of negotiation, there are terrorist attacks. No matter what Israel does, there are terrorist attacks. Pretending that it’s Israel’s fault doesn’t address the situation. Nor does ignoring the Palestinan terrorists’ complicity. The world has, to a degree, infantalized them. “Awwww, they murder women and children and target civilians, but it’s not their fault. You can’t blame them or hold them responsible for their actions.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/190 "2006-07-03T01:45:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Fair Do you not agree that it’s a valid military target? Do the international laws which govern war not allow power plants to be attacked when they’re valid military targets? I thought your cite already established that in this case it wasn’t. > [@](#): > > My pleasure, it hasn’t been mentioned in the thread yet. > [The Karni Crossing.](http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/LTIO-6R9NQ5?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=ACOS-635PFR) Also known as the Karni Gate. Thank you for the link. Still, trucking in water for 700,000 is a major logistical challenge, and just opening a gate and letting relief agencies through won’t make that happen by itself. > [@](#): > > Cite? Or is this the normal conflation of attacking valid military targets who are hiding in civilian areas, and targeting civlians? I’m sorry, but since ‘St. Pancake’, as the wingnuts called her, I’m completely unconvinced that the Israelis give a flip if they happen to take down a few civilians along the way. > [@](#): > > So in order for it to be a cassus belli, there must be thousands of deaths? If Mexico started lobbing rockets at Texas, we couldn’t respond militarily until the death toll was up around… how many thousand? I believe you misunderstand me. We could respond militarily immediately, even if there were no casualties, but a clear demonstration of intent of causing some. But there’d better be more than just a few deaths before we cut off the water to Mexico City. > [@](#): > > Are you serious? Or are you just ignoring the fact that their demands included freeing prisoners wfrom Israeli jails? That’s _their demands_. But that’s all. The fact remains that the Israelis _don’t have to do a thing_ to prevent a thousand terrorists from being freed from their jails. That may or may not be what they are _willing to do_ in order to save the captive soldier, if it should come to that. There’s a big difference between “we have to do X to keep them from doing Y” and “we have to do X because otherwise _we_ would do Y in order to keep them from doing Z.” In the latter case, we’re doing X to keep them from doing Z, regardless of the fact that we’d be willing to do Y instead of X to avoid Z if it came to that. > [@](#): > > Actually, in order to stop the hornets from stinging, you kill the hornets. Even in times of peace, there are terrorist attacks. Even in times of negotiation, there are terrorist attacks. No matter what Israel does, there are terrorist attacks. Pretending that it’s Israel’s fault doesn’t address the situation. Nor does ignoring the Palestinan terrorists’ complicity. Then you believe the appropriate Israeli response is to kill the 1.3 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip? Wow. Full circle time. > [@](#): > > The world has, to a degree, infantalized them. “Awwww, they murder women and children and target civilians, but it’s not their fault. You can’t blame them or hold them responsible for their actions.” Talk about your excluded middles. Is there no response between holding _nobody_ responsible for the attacks, and holding all 1.3 million Gaza Strip residents complicit? As a debating tactic, that’s infantile. But it’s barbaric to punish the many for the crimes of a few. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/191 "2006-07-03T02:09:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Actually, in order to stop the hornets from stinging, you kill the hornets. :dubious: In this case, that would require nothing short of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/192 "2006-07-03T03:22:00Z")
> [@Brain Glutton](#): > > In this case, that would require nothing short of genocide. Really? So you’re saying all the Palestinians are terrorists now? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I thought your cite already established that in this case it wasn’t. No… it specifically said that when there’s a valid military objective, then it’s not against the laws of war. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m sorry, but since ‘St. Pancake’, as the wingnuts called her, I’m completely unconvinced that the Israelis give a flip if they happen to take down a few civilians along the way. The western activist who the bulldozer driver couldn’t see? From the group that did all they could to frustrate Israeli efforts at self defense while doing nothing, at all, to halt Palestinian terorrism? Or were they sitting in Israeli pizza parlors and busses in order to stop bombing of those targets, too? You’ve also shifted the goalposts, quite a great distance. There is a difference between targeting civilians, as you tacitly suggested, and launching rockets at them… and hitting a valid target with civilians getting in the way. Your original suggestion was that Israel had launched rocket attacks against civilians. Do you have any proof for this, or just shifted goalposts? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I believe you misunderstand me. We could respond militarily immediately, even if there were no casualties, but a clear demonstration of intent of causing some. So… what? Do you think that the terrorists launching missiles weren’t intending to cause damage? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > But there’d better be more than just a few deaths before we cut off the water to Mexico City. If you invade, you knock out C&C and the power grid. It’s just solid tactics. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s _their demands_. But that’s all. And they can negotiate with terrorists and give into those demands, or take military action. Or, I suppose, they can wait for Hamas to act in good faith. Or, while we’re at it, for the various leaders’ statements in English to match up with their rhetoric in Arabic. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > There’s a big difference between “we have to do X to keep them from doing Y” and “we have to do X because otherwise _we_ would do Y in order to keep them from doing Z.” In the latter case, we’re doing X to keep them from doing Z, regardless of the fact that we’d be willing to do Y instead of X to avoid Z if it came to that. I’m sorry… can you rephrase this without the letters? Give me concrete terms so I can grok what you’re getting at. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Then you believe the appropriate Israeli response is to kill the 1.3 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip? Care to stop beating up on that man made of straw and focus on the actual argument? Or are you also going to suggest that all Palestinians are terrorists? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Wow. Full circle time. If that means “ignoring the fact that the word ‘terrorist’ was used four times to elaborate on the ‘hornet’ metaphor” then, erm, yes. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Talk about your excluded middles. Is there no response between holding _nobody_ responsible for the attacks, and holding all 1.3 million Gaza Strip residents complicit? Yet again, that’s just your rhetorical flourish. Power plants are a valid target of war if there is a military reason behind their destruction. Preparing for an invasion is a military reason. This isn’t mass punishment, it’s preperation for war. You’ve invented a false dichotomy and claim that I’m excluding the middle. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > As a debating tactic, that’s infantile. But it’s barbaric to punish the many for the crimes of a few. I could get into infantile debating tactics, but we’d probably stay away from that as this isn’t the Pit, yes? Would it be safe, then, to say that you view any war, ever, is a ‘punishment’ against the ‘many’ for the actions of a few? Or only certain wars? After all, any war fought against an army will be fought against only a small fraction of a population, but often results in massive devestation. Do you draw a distinction between attacking military targets, or targeting civilians? Do you admit that military targets, including power plants, are recognized by international laws of war, but targeting civilians is not? If we play fast and loose with the language, I’m sure, we can draw a moral equivelancy between a cop and a criminal due to the fact that they both carry guns and sometimes shoot people. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/193 "2006-07-03T15:05:17Z")
The problem the Israelis are facing is how to respond to a campaign of deliberately provocative terrorism. I am reasonably certain that Hamas is up to its old tricks for one reason and one reason only - to bring down on Palistinians harsh Israeli measures, thus boosting their own popularity. Hamas gives not a hoot for the misery thus engendered, so long as it maintains its hold on power. Now, Israel has two choices: to (in essence) suck it up, and simply accept sniping, kidnapping and murder as a sort of everyday hazard; or to react violently, with invasions, arrests, etc. The choice of tactic should be dictated by goals, both long term and short term. I think that there are in essence two long term choices: “engagement” and “the porcupine”. “Engagement” means engaging the Palistinians, attempting to make them partners for peace, negotiating a give-and-take, boosting a legitimate Palistinian national government, co-operating with that government to secure, if not love and flowers, at least some measure of peace and security. “The Porcupine” means taking unilateral measures - building a big wall, bristling with arms, lashing out when attacked, no negotiations - just a line in the sand. Those who favour “engagement” will naturally dislike the current Israeli actions. The difficulty they have, as I see it, is that the Palistinians, and the internatiuonal community as represented by the UN, do not appear to have the will or the intention to engage in engagement. It does take two to negotiate, the Israelis cannot do so on their own. Both the Palistinians and the UN as an institution are far more interested in scoring points off of Israel than nation-creating in Palistine. Israelis have, I think, mostly concluded that the Pocupine strategy is more likely to actually work. They don’t particularly care if this brings down international condemnation, because they have come to believe that the “international community” would condemn them in any case no matter what they do, and that “condemnation” is perfectly toothless anyway. They don’t care that this will empower Hamas, because they have become convinced that it will not really matter which Palistinian faction is in control - attacks will continue regardless. They will not engage in negotiations for hostages, because that will simply result in an industry of taking hostages. Now, this may make sense from the Israeli side - it will not secure peace, but it will probably make for greater security within Israel itself, as well as having the psycological satisfactions of self-defence. From the Palistinian side this is bad news of course, as increased Israeli security is bound to come at the price of increased Palistinian misery. The sensible course for those who actually care about Palistinian welfare, as opposed to trying to blacken Israel’s moral character for engaging in self-interested self-defence (which I think at this point a perfectly pointless undertaking), would be to try to get Palistinians to re-direct their energies into making “engagement” a more reasonable path for Israelis to pursue. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/194 "2006-07-03T15:44:39Z")
[Now](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/03/israel.soldier/index.html) the militants are at least obliquely threatening to kill their hostage: > [@](#): > > The militants’ statement, faxed to news agencies, said: “We are giving the Zionist enemy until tomorrow, July 4th, at 6 a.m. (11 p.m. EDT Monday). If they do not answer our humanitarian demands, the enemy will be responsible for all future consequences.” Israel is not only flatly rejecting any negotiation, but says it hold’s **Syria** responsible for Shalit’s safety! :eek: Really, I very much doubt Assad is in any position to protect Shalit. I just hope this doesn’t spark another Israeli-Syrian war. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/195 "2006-07-03T16:26:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Israel is not only flatly rejecting any negotiation, but says it hold’s **Syria** responsible for Shalit’s safety! :eek: > Really, I very much doubt Assad is in any position to protect Shalit. You keep making statements to this effect, complete with refrences to it being a ‘farce’ and various smilies… so I have to ask, are you aware of Syria’s relationship to Hamas? Your reactions continue to appear based on ignorance, and I can’t figure out why you’d be gainsaying something you don’t know about. Here, for instance, you’re saying that you doubt one of the major sponsors of Hamas and host to one of Hamas’ most violent factions wouldn’t have any leverage in the hostage situation… What, exactly, do you think Hamas’ relationship is with Syria? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/196 "2006-07-03T16:29:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Now](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/03/israel.soldier/index.html) the militants are at least obliquely threatening to kill their hostage: It’s actually a rather weak threat – they aren’t even _claiming_ they’ll execute him – and Israel is, so far, reacting accordingly: > [@](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060703/wl\_nm/mideast\_dc\_159](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060703/wl_nm/mideast_dc_159) > “The government of Israel will not yield to the extortion of the > Palestinian Authority and the Hamas government, which are led by murderous terrorist organizations,” Olmert’s office said in a statement. > > “We will not conduct any negotiations on a prisoner release,” it said. “The Palestinian Authority bears full responsibility for the well-being of Gilad Shalit and his return, safe and sound, to Israel.” Essentially, if they execute him, Hamas et. al have no bargaining chip, and they’ll have little (or at least less than usual…) World Public Opinion support when we go in to extract vengeance (and I’m not mincing words here, that will most definitely be on everybody’s minds if Shalit dies, humanitarianly defensible and politically tenable or not) > [@](#): > > Israel is not only flatly rejecting any negotiation, but says it hold’s **Syria** responsible for Shalit’s safety! :eek: This actually makes quite a bit of sense, and Syria is **still** harboring Haled Mashal, who is almost certainly the mastermind behind the kidnapping as well as the main figure stopping any meaningful negotiantions from taking place (from the Palestinian side) Hey, **he’s** enjoying Damascus, what does he care about a humanitarian crisis in Gaza? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060703/wl\_nm/mideast\_dc\_159](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060703/wl_nm/mideast_dc_159)(same link as above) > Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz said the group’s headquarters in Damascus, under exiled leader Khaled Meshaal, “is the main address that bears responsibility” for the soldier’s abduction. > [@](#): > > Really, I very much doubt Assad is in any position to protect Shalit. Stop harboring Mash’al, and I think there is far more chance of _releasing_ Shalit. I’m pretty sure Shalit will be quite well _protected_ regardless (see above) (at least I feverently hope so) > [@](#): > > I just hope this doesn’t spark another Israeli-Syrian war. So does Assad… Syria is in no position to defend itself in an all-out military conflict (which is why they have been fighting using Terrorism-by-proxy to begin with) – which means Syria may be in a position where pressure can be brought to bear on them to be a part of the solution this time, rather than part of the problem. Not sure their Iranian Overlords will let them, though… we’ll see. In any case, Israel doesn’t really want a full-scale war with Syria right now, either… we’re busy enough on the Palestinian front, and war always mean losing some of our guys, too, which kind of defeats the purpose of the excercise… But I honestly don’t know how things are going to turn out. Won’t be surprised if it all settles into a long-term low-level crisis, rather than being resolved rapidly and forcefullly. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/197 "2006-07-03T16:33:29Z")
Can anyone including Hamas tell Hamas what to do? Was the kidnapping planned by the Hamas leaders or Syria, or did a couple of guys get metaphorically liquored up and decide it would be cool to take on an Israel tank? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/198 "2006-07-03T16:41:16Z")
Er, make that ‘doubt they would’. Here are some cites on Syria’s involvement with Hamas. As I think they’ll show, holding Syria responsible for their actions is hardly part of a ‘farce’. But, then again, the person who said that also said that no matter what military provocation Syria engaged in via Hamas, Israel would still always be the aggressor for responding in self-defense. [One.](http://www.meib.org/articles/0210_s1.htm) [Two.](http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC07.php?CID=230) [Three.](http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/2005/11/opinion-in-syria-and-west.htm) [Four.](http://www.economist.com/World/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3252242) Etc… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/199 "2006-07-03T16:45:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You keep making statements to this effect, complete with refrences to it being a ‘farce’ and various smilies… so I have to ask, are you aware of Syria’s relationship to Hamas? Yes – to the mainstream Hamas faction that’s running the Palestinian government. But even **they** have no control over the actions of these militants. At least, I’ve seen no proof to the contrary in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/200 "2006-07-03T16:51:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes – to the mainstream Hamas faction that’s running the Palestinian government. No… it really would be helpful if you’d done the research before gainsaying things. As already posted upthread, Haled Mashal is hardly part of Hamas’ “political wing”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434.md?page=11)