# Israel invades Gaza Strip?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434 "2006-06-28T02:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/161 "2006-07-01T20:29:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Does that even make sense? Israel pulled out of Gaza in order to… invade it? I think the supposition is they had second thoughts afterwards. The Israelis never expected Hamas to win the Palestinian leadership. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Interesting, isn’t it, that we’ll see debatre on a UN resolution about that, but not a UN resolution condemning the terrorist actions of Hamas. What would be the point of that? It’s like your state legislature passing a resolution that “crime is bad.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/162 "2006-07-01T20:42:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think the supposition is they had second thoughts afterwards. The Israelis never expected Hamas to win the Palestinian leadership. That’s an oversimplification. It would probably be more accurate to say that after they returned the territory, and it was being used for terrorist attacks, then they began looking at how to stop the attacks. But yes, they probably drew up contingency plans once a terrorist group was elected to power. Still, I don’t think that the UN resolution is even approaching a basic level of intellectual honesty. They talk about Israel planning this as if there was no act of war commited against them first. To paraphrase: “Israel planned to fight terrorists if we were using state sponsored terrorism, again, as a means of political change. We began launching terrorist attacks, and those crafty Zionists wouldn’t let themselves be attacked. They must be condemned!” And are you certain this win was unexpected, at least by the political/military folks in the Isreali government? I mean… I knew that this would happen, surely with Mosad, they did too? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What would be the point of that? It’s like your state legislature passing a resolution that “crime is bad.” This attitude, actually, is a large part of the problem. Just like people saying “well, things need to change, so it must be the Israelis fault since it’s just wacky to ask the Palestinian terrorists to stop murdering women and children.” If Hamas won’t stop the attacks, there should be sanctions. I said much the same thing in the thread a while ago about Hamas’ election to power. Stopping terrorism should not only be a prerequisite for negotiation, but for international recognition. This double standard gets old really fast. It’s reasonble to expect that Israel be punished for acts of self defense, but not reasonble for sanctions to be invoked against a terrorist regime. It’s reasonable to expect that Israel continue to offer land for peace and other solid gestures of negotiation, but it’s not reasonable to expect that the Palestinians government stop sponsoring terrorists. Etc… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/163 "2006-07-01T21:36:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Stopping terrorism should not only be a prerequisite for negotiation, but for international recognition. Why? We in the U.S. have bad relations with Iran because, among other things, we accuse them of sponsoring terrorism – but no one has ever seriously suggested de-recognizing their government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/164 "2006-07-01T21:39:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Still, I don’t think that the UN resolution is even approaching a basic level of intellectual honesty. Save that judgment for when they actually **issue** a resolution. It’s only in the talking stage now, and under the circumstances you can’t seriously expect them to just ignore the Palestinians’ demand for one. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And are you certain this win was unexpected, at least by the political/military folks in the Isreali government? I mean… I knew that this would happen, surely with Mosad, they did too? The way all the media portrayed it, the results of the Palestinian election came as a total shock to the Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/165 "2006-07-01T21:40:03Z")
Well, to begin with, not all terrorist regimes are the same. They’re not fungible. Moreoever, in many cases it would be a very good idea to invoke sanctions. If one country launched a war of aggression against another, they’d run afoul of the Nurenberg Principles. If, however, they launch a war of aggression via terrorists they sponsor/train/equip, then they’re fine and dandy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/166 "2006-07-01T21:54:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This double standard gets old really fast. And why do you keep talking about a “double standard”? You cannot justly or reasonably apply the **same** standard to judge the actions of two parties whose relationship is as unequal as that of Israel and Palestine. The Israelis **have** their own country and are in no danger of losing it; the Palestinians are occupied by the Israelis. Israel has a real, stable government that, for the most part, can effectively control the actions even of its most hotheaded factions; Palestine . . . doesn’t, to put it mildly. Really, this is like demanding the same standard be applied to the government of Apartheid South Africa and the ANC. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/167 "2006-07-01T21:54:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Save that judgment for when they actually **issue** a resolution. Eh, judging from the UN’s track record, I don’t have high hopes. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s only in the talking stage now, and under the circumstances you can’t seriously expect them to just ignore the Palestinians’ demand for one. Yes, actually I can. I can expect that a terrorist regime which launches a war won’t, then, have the UN seriously debating how to punish their victims. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The way all the media portrayed it, the results of the Palestinian election came as a total shock to the Israelis. I’ll see if I can’t dig up some polls. It might be an accurate portrayal… but it just seems, well, off. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/168 "2006-07-01T21:58:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And why do you keep talking about a “double standard”? You cannot justly or reasonably apply the **same** standard to judge the actions of two parties whose relationship is as unequal as that of Israel and Palestine. That kind of thinking is why I talk about a double standard. Because there is one. The double standard I was refering to was that Israel will be condemned for defending itself, but Palestine will be given a pass for deliberately murdering women and children. No discussion over statehood justifies the deliberate murder of civilians. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Really, this is like demanding the same standard be applied to the government of Apartheid South Africa and the ANC. No. It’s like saying that aggression and terrorism are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/169 "2006-07-01T22:43:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The double standard I was refering to was that Israel will be condemned for defending itself, but Palestine will be given a pass for deliberately murdering women and children. But Israel is also murdering women and children, or almost certainly will have done before this is over. They accepted that when they moved across the border. When a recognized state’s army does that, it’s called “collateral damage.” When an undergound organization does it, it’s called “terrorism.” **There’s** a double standard for yo’ ass! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/170 "2006-07-01T22:49:49Z")
No, that’s more rhetorical obfuscation on your part. There is a difference between targeting civilians, and attacking military targets. There is also a difference between acting in defense, and acting out of aggression and a campaign of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/171 "2006-07-01T22:59:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **There’s** a double standard for yo’ ass! Horse puckey. Walking into a pizza shop and blowing yourself up is murdering children. Firing rockets at a kibutz is murdering children. Dropping a bomb on the guys shooting the rockets and killing children nearby is an accident. If the guys weren’t shooting the rockets, they wouldn’t be bombed. If the children didn’t live in Israel but in Warsaw, they wouldn’t have rockets shot at them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/172 "2006-07-02T00:57:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Horse puckey. > Walking into a pizza shop and blowing yourself up is murdering children. > Firing rockets at a kibutz is murdering children. > Dropping a bomb on the guys shooting the rockets and killing children nearby is an accident. > If the guys weren’t shooting the rockets, they wouldn’t be bombed. > If the children didn’t live in Israel but in Warsaw, they wouldn’t have rockets shot at them. Well, it’s all the same for the women and children, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/173 "2006-07-02T01:25:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it’s all the same for the women and children, isn’t it? I can’t decide to make a snide remark about surviving Warsaw or the Palestinian woman who dressed her baby in a suicide belt, so I’ll agree, yes, it is the same if you are murdered or killed as a bystander for those who die. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/174 "2006-07-02T04:15:52Z")
Was this a plan that was preplanned and just waiting to be triggered by the inevitable provocation or merely a response to a particular action? The arrests, at least, were allegedly in the works and not exclusively a quid pro quo. Destroying bridges and power plants, punishing the civilian population, eliminating any governing infrastructure even one as ineffectual as Hamas and Fatah, hardly seem like actions calibrated to pressure a specific terrorist subgroup and that alone. In this case the Palestinian ambassador seems on target: this action _was_ premeditated, aimed at sabotaging Palestinian unity and at destroying any chance Hamas had of forming a ruling coalition. It will accomplish that goal, and send the clear message to whatever hobbled governance is in place in the areas that Israel leaves behind that they better police their own. But is that really Israel’s best possible outcome? This response seems disproportionate and indiscriminate. I cannot believe that it is Israel’s best longterm interests, even as I understand its justifications. Israel is, if nothing else, squandering a point in time when world public opinion was behind her and fairly united in pressuring the Palestinian side to renounce violence and come to the table in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/175 "2006-07-02T10:22:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Was this a plan that was preplanned and just waiting to be triggered by the inevitable provocation or merely a response to a particular action? Why does it have to be either/or? They’re not mutually exclusive. > [@DSeid](#): > > The arrests, at least, were allegedly in the works and not exclusively a quid pro quo. Destroying bridges and power plants, punishing the civilian population, eliminating any governing infrastructure even one as ineffectual as Hamas and Fatah, What are they doing to punish civilians? Because destroying bridges served to stop movement of Shalit and his captors, and taking out the power station was a wise strategic move if you’re going to have to invade. Why don’t you think that attacking Hamas and their ability to commit organized terrorism could be directed at them? > [@DSeid](#): > > In this case the Palestinian ambassador seems on target: this action _was_ premeditated, aimed at sabotaging Palestinian unity and at destroying any chance Hamas had of forming a ruling coalition. Do you think this will do anything negative to Palestinian unity? How? Why isn’t it more likely to assume that there was a plan on some senior officer’s desk titled “What to do when Hamas shows their true colors”, or what have you? As Hamas has been orchestrating terrorism from Gaza, why doesn’t it make sense that there were plans in place to deal with it, and plans that were altered to deal with the kidnapping of Shalit? > [@DSeid](#): > > It will accomplish that goal, and send the clear message to whatever hobbled governance is in place in the areas that Israel leaves behind that they better police their own. Possibly not. Hamas was voted in with quite a bit of the populace behind them. I don’t see how making them martyrs for the cause will split the Palestinian people. It will, of course, send a signal that even terrorists who are part of the government aren’t off limits. > [@DSeid](#): > > This response seems disproportionate and indiscriminate. Why? The lack of bridges meant that Shalit couldn’t be easily moved unless his captors grew wings. The destruction of the power plant meant that troops with night vision would be at an advantage in urban combat, and that Hamas C&C network would be severely disrupted. Ditto for the capture of senior Hamas members in the government. > [@DSeid](#): > > Israel is, if nothing else, squandering a point in time when world public opinion was behind her and fairly united in pressuring the Palestinian side to renounce violence and come to the table in good faith. Eh… world opinion has been against the terrorist government of Hamas for quite some time now. Nothing’s really come of it, and I doubt that anything would have if Israel responded to an act of aggression by appearing impotent. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/176 "2006-07-02T12:10:30Z")
Oh c’mon. As [Ha’Aretz](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733036.html) put it > [@](#): > > Bombing bridges that can be circumvented both by car and on foot; seizing an airport that has been in ruins for years; destroying a power station, plunging large parts of the Gaza Strip into darkness; distributing flyers suggesting that people be concerned about their fate; a menacing flight over Bashar Assad’s palace; and arresting elected Hamas officials: The government wishes to convince us that all these actions are intended only to release the soldier Gilad Shalit. > > But the greater the government’s creativity in inventing tactics, the more it seems to reflect a loss of direction rather than an overall conception based on reason and common sense. On the face of it, Israel wishes to exert increasing pressure both on Hamas’ political leadership and on the Palestinian public, in order to induce it to pressure its leadership to release the soldier. At the same time, the government claims that Syria - or at least Khaled Meshal, who is living in Syria - holds the key. If so, what is the point of pressuring the local Palestinian leadership, which did not know of the planned attack and which, when it found out, demanded that the kidnappers take good care of their victim and return him? The goal of saving this one individual’s life would have been better served with more finely calibrated reactions more gradually ratchetted. > [@](#): > > Hamas was voted in with quite a bit of the populace behind them. I don’t see how making them martyrs for the cause will split the Palestinian people. It will, of course, send a signal that even terrorists who are part of the government aren’t off limits. Hamas was elected in, but had just caved on some, to them, highly significant points, because they knew that they would have lost a referendum on policy. People voted less for them than against Fatah corruption. But a semblance of unity government was about to form, and one moving towards the negotiation pathway. The elements of Hamas involved in government were clearly guilty of failing to prevent this offensive act, but there has been no evidence of their planning it. > [@](#): > > Eh… world opinion has been against the terrorist government of Hamas for quite some time now. Nothing’s really come of it, and I doubt that anything would have if Israel responded to an act of aggression by appearing impotent. There is space between “appearing impotent” and responding with, as Olmert put it, “extreme measures.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/177 "2006-07-02T12:51:15Z")
Pardon me if this has already been addressed, but [it seems that with the power out, Gaza’s got a bit of a water problem](http://counterpunch.org/tilley06302006.html): > [@](#): > > And yet, even all this misery is overshadowed by a grimmer fact: no water. Gaza’s public water supply is pumped by electricity. The taps, too, are dry. No sewage system. And again, word is that the electricity is out for at least six months. > > The Gaza aquifer is already contaminated with sea water and sewage, due to over-pumping (partly by those now-abandoned Israeli settlements) and the grossly inadequate sewage system. To be drinkable, well water is purified through machinery run by electricity. Otherwise, the brackish water must at least be boiled before it can be consumed, but this requires electricity or gas. And people will soon have neither. > > Drinking unpurified water means sickness, even cholera. If cholera breaks out, it will spread like wildfire in a population so densely packed and lacking fuel or water for sanitation. And the hospitals and clinics aren’t functioning, either, because there is no electricity. I thought the legitimacy of the notion of collective responsibility had died in WWI, when Germans would mow down increasing numbers of French and Belgian townspeople in retaliation for acts of sabotage. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/178 "2006-07-02T12:52:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > And my excellent joke will look like chopped liver? OK, fine, mine too. ☹ The mods seem content to preserve my dumbass status, so no danger! 😃 (END UNINTENDED HIJACK) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/179 "2006-07-02T13:08:40Z")
**DSeid** : bridges can be circumvented, but that takes time. If one is going to invade a region, it helps to have a landing zone. On another note, even if the Hamas politicos didn’t have a direct hand in planning the attacks, they aren’t at all as divorced from their military wing as they pretend. I see nothing wrong with holding them accountable. > [@DSeid](#): > > There is space between “appearing impotent” and responding with, as Olmert put it, “extreme measures.” What would you have advised, in specific? Also keeping in mind that while this was about Shalit, it was _also_ about Hamas. Hamas has been orchestrating a terrorist campaign in Gaza. Then they captured an Israeli soldier. Was Israel supposed to negotiate with terrorists, and give them the clear signal that any time they want something, all they have to do is start kidnapping folks? I’m not being flippant here, I’d honestly like to know what alternative plans there were that wouldn’t involve them caving in to terrorists or doing nothing. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I thought the legitimacy of the notion of collective responsibility had died in WWI, when Germans would mow down increasing numbers of French and Belgian townspeople in retaliation for acts of sabotage. It’s not an issue of collective responsibility. And your story doesn’t touch on the opening of the Karni passage and its use for humanitarian needs. And the last time I checked, electrical stations that could be used by a military forces are legitimate targets of war. [HRW certainly seems to suggest that power stations can be legitmate targets of war in certain circumstances.](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/4.5.htm) Would disrupting C&C abilities and gaining an advantage in night fighting not be a valid military objective? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434/180 "2006-07-02T15:48:22Z")
Let’s see … a slower progression would be step one, especially since various Arab politicos and elements within the PA were tryng hard to get those who abducted the soldier to return him. Massing troops, fine. Going in far enough to destroy any tunnels, for sure. Bombing identified training camps. Then wait a few more days. Impress the world with your restraint. Meanwhile this response has served the purposes of the Islamist extremists and made a negotiated solution with an independent and economically viable Palestine even farther out of reach than it already was. It serves the ends of those who desire nothing other than the eternal perpetuation of the conflict so that Israel can be used a scapegoat for all that is wrong in the Arab world, so that the Arabs have their Goldstein for the daily five minute hate. It allows images of Palestinians who had nothing to do with the abduction, children, lining up for water and huddling in hiding, and walking among rubble, to be platered across the world media. It may even have made it less likely that this particular man will be returned alive. From a selfish Zionist-sympatheitc perspective, from the POV of someone who believes that Israel’s best intersts are served by obtaining a fair enough negotiated solution, this was stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-invades-gaza-strip/362434.md?page=10)