# Israel/Iran - which is most likely to do something catastrophically stupid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059 "2011-11-06T15:24:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/21 "2011-11-06T23:46:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And there you destroyed your argument that Iran needs nukes. See, you are right…Iraq, for various reasons, DID invade Iran. And lost (well, I suppose it was a draw). And that was an Iraq that was considered one of the military powers of the region, and an Iran that had just completed their revolution. The invasion cost Iran a million lives, something like three-quarters of their pre-war GDP and I have no idea how much infrastructure. I think they would’ve been much happier just waving some nukes around to scare Saddam off. And just because they won once hardly means that Iran will automatically win everytime they’re invaded (and history hasn’t exactly shown Saddam as the worlds greatest military genius, even when he had a large expensive army, the next guy might be competant). > [@](#): > > There is practically zero chance of any of Iran’s neighbors invading them, and nukes won’t make a hairs difference in their calculations. There is practically zero probability of the US invading them either, and I’d guess less than a zero chance that Europe will. Or China. Or Russia. I don’t think there’s a strong chance, but I don’t think its zero. One of Iran’s big neighbors hates it (Saudi Arabia), two of them are in such a state of flux that I think its too hard to say anything confidently about what Iraq or Afghanistan will do five or ten years down the road. For all we know, in twenty years the state of Kurdistan might have used its oil wealth to have gone from non-existence to the major regional power. And the ex-soviet states aren’t exactly pillars of stability either. And while I don’t think the US will invade, I said the same thing in 2000 when my more liberal friends tried to convince me the new President Bush would come up with some pre-text to invade Iraq. Predictions about the future are hard, and if I were an Iranian general, I’d be worried about the possibility of future invasions as well. > [@](#): > > Like your own projection that Iran really is just blowing hot air about Israel, it’s based on the assumption that they can look at reality in the same way and draw the same conclusions. I guess, but I’m usually pretty skeptical of claims that foreign states are so irrational that its worthless to predict how they see the world. We spent most of the Cold War with commentators trying to convince us that the Soviets were so crazy they’d invade Europe despite the fact that it would mean mutual destruction, just to be contradictory. Foreign gov’ts are occasionally stupid, but I don’t think they’re usually out and out irrational, and I get pretty suspicious when foreign policy is presented whose sole justification is “hey, you never know, the other guy could be crazy”. > [@](#): > > Do they? How many countries get invaded by large scale armies these days? How many nations are capable of projecting large scale force beyond their own border? How often do nations with large conventional forces (as Iran has) and large populations (as Iran has, relative to it’s neighbors) get invaded? In the last 30 years amongst Iran and its immediate neighbors, Afghanistan has been invaded twice, Iraq twice, Kuwait once, Iran once and Azerbaijan once. Getting invaded isn’t so unusual, and its not like it needs to happen every other day to be devastating, even if you manage to fight off the invaders. > [@](#): > > With the possible exception of Turkey (and you don’t seriously think Turkey is going to invade Iran, do you?), they are far more powerful than any of their ‘immediate neighbors’… They also share a border with Pakistan and Russia, both of whom are larger and arguably more powerful then they are (and both armed with nukes). Granted neither state is likely to invade in the near future, but Russia isn’t exactly above invading countries in what it sees as its “back yard” and who knows what Pakistan will do in the future. And I think its important to realize the Iranians aren’t building nukes all of a sudden because of recent events. Its been an ongoing project since the 80’s, they aren’t building them to ward off a specific gov’t or regime, or because of Ahmadinajad or Katami, or because of Bush or Obama. Its a long term strategy, because while there may be few immediate threats of invasion, in ten years Sunni monarchies will still hate them, Russia will still be a bully, the US will still be playing world policeman and no one knows what Iraq, Pakistan or the ex-Soviets will look like. > [@](#): > > Leaving aside the ‘pretty strong proof of Israel’s nuclear program’, do I contest that nukes are an effective deterrent to invasion? Well…sort of. I disagree, but the efficacy of nukes in preventing invasions generally probably deserves its own thread and this post is already longer then anyones likely to actually read. Suffice to say, plenty of rational people disagree with you, and as US taxpayer I pay a lot of money sustaining a nuclear arsenal thats supposed to provide a deterant against invasion to us and our allies, so I’d be pretty pissed if the idea is totally crazy. So while the idea may be wrong, I don’t think you can say the Iranians are irrational for believing it. Plenty of other countries believe it to. > [@](#): > > power, influence, intimidation, etc. Certainly they aren’t worried about the Saudi’s being worried about them getting the nasty things because, frankly, there isn’t anything the Saudi’s can do about it. Nukes are pretty limited tools to exert power or intimidation, for much the same reason that my owning a handgun is a pretty limited tool in negotiating the price of a used car. No one really believes your going to use it over anything other then an existential issue. > [@](#): > > The point I was making is that Iran pursuing the things has pretty much made everyone nervous…and everyone was already nervous because, frankly, Iran is already one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) military nations in the region, and they have a relatively large population for the region as well. And, of course, they are still pretty fanatical, a bit wild and wooly, and fairly unstable…all of which are bad things even if you don’t factor in the nukes. Like with Pakistan, it’s not so much the having of nukes, but who has them and how stable they are that ratchets up the fear factor. Put it another way…would you be more comfortable with Pakistan having nukes or, say, the United Kingdom? North Korea or, say, Germany? Or, even comparing apples to apples, India or Pakistan? Or does it not matter I don’t necessarily disagree with any of this (other then their being the most powerful military nation in the region, their like, fourth maybe, see above). But I’m arguing against their developing nukes being “catastrophically stupid”. I think they have rational reasons for doing so, and one of those reasons isn’t “lets nuke Israel just because we’re crazy”. From their perspective, I think its a move that makes sense. From my perspective, I certainly still wish they wouldn’t do it, for all the reasons you mention in your last paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/22 "2011-11-09T01:08:08Z")
It’s not so much that Iran would nuke Israel right off the bat, unprovoked, just because it could. But the idea that Iran could have nukes is troublesome, becuse it is already a pariah state and no one wants to see it have acess to such power. Israel isn’t the only one who doesn’t want to see this happen - Russia, the US, the EU and the greater Arab world don’t want Iran to have nukes either. Not sure why this has to be an “Israel v. Iran” thing when in reality, it’s “Iran v. Most of the World”. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/23 "2011-11-09T01:43:40Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It’s not so much that Iran would nuke Israel right off the bat, unprovoked, just because it could. But the idea that Iran could have nukes is troublesome, becuse it is already a pariah state and no one wants to see it have acess to such power. Israel isn’t the only one who doesn’t want to see this happen - Russia, the US, the EU and the greater Arab world don’t want Iran to have nukes either. Not sure why this has to be an “Israel v. Iran” thing when in reality, it’s “Iran v. Most of the World”. Are they a pariah state? They’ve had some (relatively light) sanctions put on them by the UN and EU countries (mainly just forbidding arms or duel use trade), and some heavy sanctions put on them by the US (but most of those pre-date their nuclear program). But they still do a lot of trade with the rest of the world, so far as I know their citizens can still travel to most countries (I met an Iranian student a few months ago that was starting a PhD nuclear physics program in the States, so apparently they can even come here and study nuclear physics) and have diplomatic relations with most non-US countries. I guess there’s no formal Pariah state definition, but I usually think of something more like modern N. Korea or Iraq under Saddam. I think Iran has a ways to go before they hit that point. But I agree that plenty of countries don’t want to see Iran get nukes. Pretty much the whole world (including Iran) are, at least on paper, supposed to be committed to nuclear non-proliferation, for good reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/24 "2011-11-09T02:00:33Z")
Perhaps ‘rogue state’ is a better descriptor? I agree that at the moment, ‘pariah’ could be harsh. But look at the countries who have good relations with Iran: Syria, China, Russia. They aren’t exactly BFFs with the Western world. It’s not so much that Iran wants nukes (who doesn’t?) - it is what kind of political power Iran could have with nukes. Do you want Iran to be the major power player in the Middle East? Or a bigger one? I don’t. Aside from some religious and ideological similarities, there isn’t much reason for Arab-Iranian (How the hell do I say that?) alliances that aren’t seeped in arms deals and funding. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/25 "2011-11-09T02:07:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Seems a no brainer to me. Iran, by continuing to explore building nuclear weapons, is clearly already the one pushing the envelop on ‘catastrophically stupid’. Say what? Israel went beyond “exploring” building nuclear weapons and actually _went ahead and built them_ [almost 50 years ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel#Weapons_production_1967.E2.80.93present). If anyone’s pushing envelopes it’s not Ahmadinejad. Or does Israel get a pass because it’s, y’know, America’s best buddy? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/26 "2011-11-09T02:26:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Aside from some religious and ideological similarities, there isn’t much reason for Arab-Iranian (How the hell do I say that?) alliances that aren’t seeped in arms deals and funding. :rolleyes: Of course there are. For instance, such could be based on regional economic interests and historic cultural ties. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/27 "2011-11-09T02:30:09Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Say what? Israel went beyond “exploring” building nuclear weapons and actually _went ahead and built them_ [almost 50 years ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel#Weapons_production_1967.E2.80.93present). If anyone’s pushing envelopes it’s not Ahmadinejad. > > Or does Israel get a pass because it’s, y’know, America’s best buddy? :rolleyes: Er, no. Israel isn’t threatening to nuke someone out of existence, isn’t funding terrorist groups around the world and isn’t pushing an anti-American agenda. Israel is an actual ally of the US. Iran is not. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Of course there are. For instance, such could be based on regional economic interests and **historic cultural ties**. Explain? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/28 "2011-11-09T02:36:29Z")
You can’t deny that the Obama-Jewish relationship isn’t a little awkward. If it weren’t, the DNC & Co would’t be spending so much money and time trying to convince us of Obama’s ‘pro-Israel’ stance. There’s a shitty joke about people voting for Obama to prove they weren’t racist.\*\* But honestly, I wondered in 2008 if the campaign for the Jewish vote by the NJDC wasn’t a challenge for us to prove we weren’t Islamophobes.\*\*\* \*\* A charge I think is racist and bullshit. \*\*\*What with that “Obama is a secret Muslim” bs. Sometimes I think people are the victims of unfair assualts in PR wars. Othertimes I wonder why Jewish Dems have to try so hard. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/29 "2011-11-09T02:37:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Explain? Iran and its Arab neighbors have been exchanging cultural influences, constantly, ever since the Islamic conquest/conversion. Dar al-Islam once was one big empire/civilization. It always included Persia culturally, sometimes included it politically. And Persia at various times has included Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/30 "2011-11-09T02:39:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Seems a no brainer to me. Iran, by continuing to explore building nuclear weapons, is clearly already the one pushing the envelop on ‘catastrophically stupid’. > > […] > > To me, the stupidity lies in Iran continuing to push on this, despite almost universal disapproval from other countries, Frankly, I fail to see how it is stupid. Given its current situation and recent history of Iran and the Middle East, it seems an extremely sensible and logical move to me, at the contrary. > [@](#): > > Eventually, IMHO (since we are tossing out opinions right and left here) the wheels are going to come off, and Iran is going to fly apart…and when that happens, I think it would be a Bad Thing™ if they have nukes in their possession. And I don’t believe Iran will “fly apart”. The current regime might collapse (it is to be hoped will soon) but the country isn’t going to devolve into a collection of warring factions/tribes like some others did anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/31 "2011-11-09T02:44:16Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And I don’t believe Iran will “fly apart”. The current regime might collapse (it is to be hoped will soon) but the country isn’t going to devolve into a collection of warring factions/tribes like some others did anytime soon. Why not? I mean, there are a lot of factions – and a lot of ethnic nationalities – aren’t there? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/32 "2011-11-09T02:51:31Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Perhaps ‘rogue state’ is a better descriptor? I agree that at the moment, ‘pariah’ could be harsh. But look at the countries who have good relations with Iran: Syria, China, Russia. They aren’t exactly BFFs with the Western world. I think of a rouge or pariah state as being alienated from the rest of the world, except maybe for one or two patrons (like N. Korea with China), not just a country that doesn’t have good relations with the US and its closer allies. (plus, nukes aside, you’d sort of expect Iran to have close relations with places like Russia and China just based on geography). FWIW, Iran’s top trading partners according to wikipedia are: China 16.3%, India 13.1%, Japan 11.5%, South Korea 7.1%, Turkey 4.2% So its not all “villain states” like China or Russia. > [@](#): > > It’s not so much that Iran wants nukes (who doesn’t?) - it is what kind of political power Iran could have with nukes. Do you want Iran to be the major power player in the Middle East? Or a bigger one? I don’t. I’m not really sure how many times I need to stress in this thread that I don’t, in fact, want Iran to develop nukes. But again, my argument is that it makes sense from an Iranian perspective to get nukes (its not “catostrophically stupid”), from my perspective as an American I certainly don’t want them to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/33 "2011-11-09T02:57:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I doubt the fervent defense of the homeland, as you and Der and others bring up, is at the top of their list either…since they haven’t been invaded and don’t have nukes I seriously doubt they are living in terror of the much prophesied perennial invasion Well…They have been invaded in recent history, in fact, and with the support of many nations. And they’ve been the target of many threats by the USA, whose troops are still sitting at their doors. Iran’s history and current situation would make a lot of countries rather paranoïd too. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/34 "2011-11-09T03:30:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And there you destroyed your argument that Iran needs nukes. See, you are right…Iraq, for various reasons, DID invade Iran. And lost (well, I suppose it was a draw). And that was an Iraq that was considered one of the military powers of the region, and an Iran that had just completed their revolution. And it costed them an untold number of deaths. I guess I wouldn’t want a repeat if I were them > [@](#): > > There is practically zero chance of any of Iran’s neighbors invading them, and nukes won’t make a hairs difference in their calculations. There is practically zero probability of the US invading them either, and I’d guess less than a zero chance that Europe will. Or China. Or Russia. In this post, you’re arguing repeatedly that Iran doesn’t really needs nukes. China, the USA, Russia, France, the UK are vastly less likely than Iran of being invaded, haven’t been invaded in a long while (if ever) and as result needs nukes even less. Except in some extremely bad and unlikely situation where they could point at their nuclear arsenal in last resort. They haven’t irrational rulers, either. And still they think it makes sense to keep those nukes. It certainly makes more sense for Iran to have them. What would make you think that in case of great turmoil in the Middle East, Iran couldn’t be attacked or directly threatened? Plus any number of unpredictable scenarios (say, relations with Russia turning extremely bad for some reason, Iran being somehow engulfed in a major India/Pakistan war, etc…) Without counting the possibility that the irrational leader making a stupid move might be on the other side of the fence (that includes the USA), which is probably a possibility that Iran’s top brass are considering. See alsoi North Korea for an example showing how having maybe a couple nukes that could possibly work makes diplomacy easier, too. And national pride (something Iranians definitely aren’t lacking, regardless of their political views) and power, that you both mention, are things that motivate many nations. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/35 "2011-11-09T03:45:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why not? I mean, there are a lot of factions – and a lot of ethnic nationalities – aren’t there? There are a significant number of minorities. But contrarily to for instance Iraq, Iran isn’t a recent and arbitrary construction. It has its own distinctive culture, considers itself as the heir of a millenias-old civilization, and is fiercely nationalist. It’s probably the most “real” nation in the area, by far. So, I guess there could be a civil war in case of mass uprising (like in those “Arab spring” countries) or even a minority revolting, but nothing in the range of the country “flying apart”. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/36 "2011-11-09T03:46:46Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You can’t deny that the Obama-Jewish relationship isn’t a little awkward. If it weren’t, the DNC & Co would’t be spending so much money and time trying to convince us of Obama’s ‘pro-Israel’ stance. > > There’s a shitty joke about people voting for Obama to prove they weren’t racist.\*\* But honestly, I wondered in 2008 if the campaign for the Jewish vote by the NJDC wasn’t a challenge for us to prove we weren’t Islamophobes.\*\*\* > > \*\* A charge I think is racist and bullshit. > \*\*\*What with that “Obama is a secret Muslim” bs. > > Sometimes I think people are the victims of unfair assualts in PR wars. Othertimes I wonder why Jewish Dems have to try so hard. Whoops! This is TOTALLY in the wrong thread. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/37 "2011-11-09T03:52:44Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > “who do you think is more likely to do something unbelievably crazy, Iran or Israel?” That ship sailed in May of 1948. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/38 "2011-11-09T03:59:15Z")
Because Jews having their own homeland is just _batshit_ crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/39 "2011-11-09T04:02:25Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Because Jews having their own homeland is just _batshit_ crazy. I apologize for the presumption. Was that question in response to my comment? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059/40 "2011-11-09T04:29:18Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > That ship sailed in May of 1948. What did you mean by that? Do you think that the Jews creating Israel was “catastrophically stupid”? If so, why? Not challenging, just asking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-iran-which-is-most-likely-to-do-something-catastrophically-stupid/602059.md?page=3)