# Israel kills civilians at will - where's the difference **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 21, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658 "2003-10-21T07:25:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/101 "2003-10-22T15:08:23Z")
After checking the news on the net, it’s quite possible that this thread may be based on a lie anyway, and that there was no indiscriminate killing on the part of the Israeli army, after all. > [@](#): > > The thermal footage taken by a remote control drone that filmed the entire rocket attack begins shortly before the first rocket hits the vehicle carrying the Hamas suspects. > > The picture shows the main road in the camp with two vehicles traveling a distance apart along it. The helicopter monitors the movement of the terrorist’s car, which is the second vehicle seen on the film and shows the first Hellfire missile directly hitting it. > > The driver loses control, crashes into a tree and the car disappears, hidden by a building, but is seen seconds later traveling in reverse. There are no people on the streets and no other vehicles when the car comes to a halt. > > An ambulance is then seen passing the damaged vehicle as it continues along the road. Only after the ambulance is a distance away does the air force pilot release the second rocket which hits the vehicle and clearly shows three bodies lying in the street. > > For at least two and a half minutes after the attack the footage shows the thermal images of one or two other people in the area but not close to where the vehicle that was hit. > > On Monday night following the attack Palestinians claimed eight people were killed and over eighty wounded. Palestinian media reports claimed that air force helicopters fired one rocket which hit the car and then a second rocket into a crowd that had gathered around the burning vehicle. > > Israeli security officials on Tuesday said of the eleven Palestinians killed in all five attacks on Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip at least seven had been accurately identified as Hamas terrorists. [Link to News item](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1066715113718) Is it possible that Palestinian news sources might be little bit suspect? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/102 "2003-10-22T15:11:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\*On preview, I’m not sure what “balance” **jjimm** is getting at, as on his linked BBC page there seem to be approximately three times as many headlines dealing with violence against Palestinians as there are dealing with violence against Israelis. \*\* Perhaps that’s because three times as many Palestinians have been killed as Israelis? ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/103 "2003-10-22T15:47:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*If I had to pick one nation in Europe – whatever the status of state control of the media (which is irrelvant to the argument anyway) —containing consistently anti-Israeli bias I would pick France. > \*\* The reality is different: in France poeple know more about the middle-east, it is directly concerned with it’s huge muslim population. But France has also a huge jewish population. I **live** , (not “lived”, since that doesn’t seem to count for you), in France. More precisely, I live in Villeurbanne which is the city with the highest number of jews in France. I’ve seen pro-Palestinean-Anti-Isreal Jews rally against Israel in discussions in Villeurbanne’s Zola Cinema, after a movie about Palestine had been shown. That should compensate for the Austrian Nazi’s you were talking about. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\* > If I am no expert on European media > \*\* That says it all. On french television, **Jews** are not really treated, I hardly see any news about them. However, **Israel** and it’s politics is treated. And it is not treated in the same way as I have seen it in the US: I.e., in Europe, when a suicide bomber blows up civilians, it is shown. When the Israels kill 10 children throwing a 1000kg bomb on a house, then it is also shown!!! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*you don’t know shit about the United States. \*\* During my time in the US I’ve seen CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and ABC. But I couldn’t stand it. Then only journalist I ever found who asked some direct questions to politicians was Tom somebody on ABC, the other channels just suck, even CNN. I was subscribed to TIME magazine for a year. I quit, it suck’s. Reading it I got the fealing that I had been subscribed to a propaganda magazine from the pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/104 "2003-10-22T15:51:11Z")
Actually, I’m calling myself on my facetious statement above, and calling bullshit on **Jackmannii** too. I just re-examined that page, and here are the direct news stories specifically regarding violence from either side (disregarding general/political/historical articles): **Israeli violence** Israel hits Gaza hard Eyewitness: Devastation in Gaza Israelis live in fear of Hamas missiles **Palestinian violence** New front in conflict? [The targeting of Americans in Gaza is unusual and potentially ominous] Gunmen kill three Israeli troops Three Israeli generations torn apart The rest is background/politics. ---
**Author:** ![FrankTrollman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e0b2c6/32.png) [@FrankTrollman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankTrollman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/105 "2003-10-22T16:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > I was subscribed to TIME magazine for a year. I quit, it suck’s. Reading it I got the fealing that I had been subscribed to a propaganda magazine from the pentagon. Close. The media in the United States is a series of allied large conservative corporations which hand pick possible leaders of the country. So you aren’t seeing propaganda from the Pentagon, you are seeing propaganda from the people who have right of refusal on the people who control the Pentagon. It’s a subtle difference - but an important one. It means that any time the Pentagon tries to act on its own without approval from Rupert Murdock - it gets roasted in the media, for example. It’s not that the media is automatically boosting anything the Pentagon does - it is that the Pentagon has a very difficult time doing anything the media has not already approved. -Frank ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/106 "2003-10-22T16:15:46Z")
Anyone else see [this?](http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031771671305&path=!news&s=1045855934842) I wonder if the official Palestinian description of what Israel is doing should be taken at face value. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/107 "2003-10-22T16:44:56Z")
[Sorry](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A61915-2003Jul15¬Found=true), but mostly Jews are interested in anti-Semitism, so it’s hard to find sources you would even read – without labeling the writer and dismissing the article. YES, you LIVE there! I get it. Now, try to think about how stupid that argument is. You reject out of hand any opinions that differ from the spoon fed opinions you get in your media, _and are proud of it._ But, hey, France is waking up to the huge wave on anti-Semitism in their midst and is even trying to pass laws to deal with it, finally. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/108 "2003-10-22T16:53:41Z")
Ah, I’ve been away, back now and find I do not need to respond to **Beagle** ’s latest rants as they have been roasted sufficiently by others. So I content myself with: [QUOTE] _Originally posted by Jackmannii_ **In other words, you’d rather not address this double standard. I quite understand your reluctance to do so.** 😕 Er, what double standard? I dissaprove of Israeli action in the occupied territories, I disapprove of Palestinian militant action in Israel proper, I disapprove of US action in Iraq, I disapprove of UK action in Iraq. I post my disapproval (and I write to my MP. the Foreign Minister and Tony Blair to express my contempt for their party/government policy). I point out we are in a thread about Israeli and Palestinian killing of innocents and that we should keep to the point. Your point? \*\* > [@](#): > > You apparently are laboring under the misconception that you are an arbiter of what may or may not be discussed here, as well as a conscript in the language police upset that there is not enough vituperance here to suit Pit mores.\*\* No. I was suggesting you were wasting your time attempting to discuss supposed institution BBC anti-Israeli bias when the subject has been done to death in many other threads. If you wanted to find them I suggested **December** as a primary seach method. You can of course discuss whatever you like, I can trust to jjimm to produce the evidence of balance, just as he has done in numerous other threads And my \*\* > [@](#): > > I trust that you are not of the opinion it was somehow a good day for them, or that with the deaths of a few of their fellow Palestinians the survivors should be somehow thankful for it no longer being so crowded in the Gaza refugee camps?\*\* was irony, not an attempted witticism. Irony, like silvery or goldery but made of Iron. There that was an attempted witticism. I do not know what that had to do with my knowledge or otherwise of jouralistic standards. \*\* > [@](#): > > A Thatcherite turned Chomskyite. Eggggg\*\* You dope. No, in fact thanks! You have proved my point about preconceptions and prejudice nicely. I never said I was a Chomskyite (whatever that is :rolleyes:), I said I had once read one of his books and found his thesis both interesting and one that stood up to my own obsevations. In other words, I tested it. My thesis was that **Beagle** would not read it as he had already made his mind up and was not open to new data. Perhaps I should add you, **Jackmannii** , to the list of the closed minded. Who was it that said. “You should always read the writings of your enemies, so as to understand what they are planning.”? BTW I was a Thatcherite, I am not longer, it is only your assumption that I would agree on Chomsky on other issues than bias in the media agenda, not simply the coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/109 "2003-10-22T17:01:13Z")
[Sorry, contains Jews.](http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/mediaobjectivity/European_Media_and_Anti-Israel_Bias.asp) Hey, fuck you **not quite** smart. I responded to a one sentence diatribe from a noted Israel basher and all I’ve gotten from you fools is insults and derision. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/110 "2003-10-22T17:07:18Z")
Whoops! Sorry all for buggering up the quote/unquote and bold/unbold stuff. I have a Portuguese keyboard here without a square bracket and copy/cut/paste/edit is clearly subject to easy error. I hope you can see through to what I was attempting. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/111 "2003-10-22T17:15:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*But, hey, France is waking up to the huge wave on anti-Semitism in their midst and is even trying to pass laws to deal with it, finally. \*\* You must know it … I did not realize this “huge wave of anti-semitism”. There was one incident a couple months ago, I think it was during the Iraq war. That was the only incident I can remember (Somebody sprayed something on a jewish cemetry) - and I guess it got exaggerated in the US media. Anyway, it was treated was a lot of respect by the French politicians, even Chirac talked about. Since then I have no knowledge of any other incident. There have been more incidents of other kind against other groups, e.g. arabs, but they don’t get as much attention, perhaps because they are not jewish. The incidents you describe in your cite happen all the time against minorities, in Europe and in the US. I remember when the right-wing government came to power in Austria, it was not really a good thing to be an Austrian in the other countries in Europe. Taxi drivers wouldn’t take you, and people work on your car with screwdrivers and keys. My wife is moroccan, and being an Arabe in Europe is not better than being a Jew. Au contraire! And don’t tell me that this is different in the US. The only difference is, if your Jew you may cry “Antisemitism” and everybody is shocked. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/112 "2003-10-22T17:16:34Z")
**Beagle** I was referring to your 8.45 am post which I do not now think needs further comment from me. I was referring specifically your later contributions, especially if they take on an anti-semite. I am anti-zionist but certainly not an anti-semite. But if your want an apology for my not being precise, and having offended you unknowingly, then you have one! ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/113 "2003-10-22T17:16:49Z")
**Beagle** I was referring to your 8.45 am post which I do not now think needs further comment from me. I was not referring specifically to your later contributions, especially if they take on an anti-semite. I am anti-zionist but certainly not an anti-semite. But if your want an apology for my not being precise, and having offended you unknowingly, then you have one! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/114 "2003-10-22T21:03:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **Actually, I’m calling myself on my facetious statement above** I’m glad it was facetious. Quite a lot of people take comparative body counts seriously in choosing up sides.\*\* > [@](#): > > and calling bullshit on **Jackmannii** too. > > I just re-examined that page, and here are the direct news stories specifically regarding violence from either side (disregarding general/political/historical articles): > > **Israeli violence** > > Israel hits Gaza hard > Eyewitness: Devastation in Gaza > Israelis live in fear of Hamas missiles > > **Palestinian violence** > > New front in conflict? [The targeting of Americans in Gaza is unusual and potentially ominous] > Gunmen kill three Israeli troops > Three Israeli generations torn apart > > The rest is background/politics. \*\* Your analysis is unconvincing, even with the artificial separation of “news” and “background/politics”. For one thing, all but one of the BBC’s “top news stories” on that site deal with the latest Israeli attack and negative reaction, with just the solitary reference to the Palestinian attack that immediately preceded it. The rest of the site is larded with headlines such as: "Resigned Arafat awaits fate Anger and pain in Nablus Despair of Palestinian children ``` Divided lives ``` Palestinian views on Israel’s security fence Palestinians languish in Israeli jails Israel holds thousands of Palestinian prisoners whose treatment is a matter of human rights concern. Settlement block on peace road etc. And when I get a chance to read the actual articles, I’m sure they’ll just be fair and balanced as the selection of topics was. :rolleyes: At least you’re making an effort here, as opposed to **notquitekarpov** , who only ducks and evades with contributing anything of value. True, I didn’t expect much from him after that revelation about being an ex-Thatcherite. I’ve come to expect rigid preachy thinking from people who have vacillated wildly between extremes (including certain ex-smokers, reformed sinners and so on). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/115 "2003-10-22T21:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **Actually, I’m calling myself on my facetious statement above** I’m glad it was facetious. Quite a lot of people take comparative body counts seriously in choosing up sides.\*\* > [@](#): > > and calling bullshit on **Jackmannii** too. > > I just re-examined that page, and here are the direct news stories specifically regarding violence from either side (disregarding general/political/historical articles): > > **Israeli violence** > > Israel hits Gaza hard > Eyewitness: Devastation in Gaza > Israelis live in fear of Hamas missiles > > **Palestinian violence** > > New front in conflict? [The targeting of Americans in Gaza is unusual and potentially ominous] > Gunmen kill three Israeli troops > Three Israeli generations torn apart > > The rest is background/politics. \*\* Your analysis is unconvincing, even with the artificial separation of “news” and “background/politics”. For one thing, all but one of the BBC’s “top news stories” on that site deal with the latest Israeli attack and negative reaction, with just the solitary reference to the Palestinian attack that immediately preceded it. The rest of the site is larded with headlines such as: "Resigned Arafat awaits fate Anger and pain in Nablus Despair of Palestinian children ``` Divided lives ``` Palestinian views on Israel’s security fence Palestinians languish in Israeli jails Israel holds thousands of Palestinian prisoners whose treatment is a matter of human rights concern. Settlement block on peace road etc. And when I get a chance to read the actual articles, I’m sure they’ll be just as fair and balanced as the selection of topics was. :rolleyes: At least you’re making an effort here, as opposed to **notquitekarpov** , who only ducks and evades with contributing anything of value. True, I didn’t expect much from him after that revelation about being an ex-Thatcherite. I’ve come to expect rigid preachy thinking from people who have vacillated wildly between extremes (including certain ex-smokers, reformed sinners and so on). ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/116 "2003-10-23T07:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > **And when I get a chance to read the actual articles, I’m sure they’ll be just as fair and balanced as the selection of topics was. :rolleyes:** So what you are saying is you haven’t bothered to read them because you already _ **know** _ what they are going to say. Again, you are not open to debate because your views are fixed and inflexible. If you go looking only for bias that is exactly what you will find. \*\* > [@](#): > > At least you’re making an effort here, as opposed to **notquitekarpov** , who only ducks and evades with _**(out I presume you intended - nqk)**_ contributing anything of value. True, I didn’t expect much from him after that revelation about being an ex-Thatcherite. I’ve come to expect rigid preachy thinking from people who have vacillated wildly between extremes (including certain ex-smokers, reformed sinners and so on). \*\* Yet another example. You do not take me to task on what I post here you just _ **yet again** _ assume because you _know:_ :rolleyes: that I have arrived at another extremist position. On what exactly do you base this new insight now you have abandoned calling me a “Chomskyite” (whatever that was supposed to mean). I am showing the opposite of rigid thinking surely by openly inviting well supported arguments that might alter my current understanding. I’ve done it before. You cannot equate (well, you **can** but it is stupid) political views with things like smoking or sinning which are yes/no things. The whole point of politics is that it is the art of the possible as well as what you believe in. Ducking? Evasion? Me? I think not. Back to the OP anyone? ---
**Author:** ![kp\_72110](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e68b1a/32.png) [@kp\_72110](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kp_72110)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/117 "2003-10-23T09:20:56Z")
Wow! I’ve either been “whooooooshhhhhhhed” or y’all are very seriously fuped duck. Settle down damnit! you wear a hat and i’ll wear a cap and we’ll all die… mmmmkay? I haven’t got much cash… but you can both have $150.00 after that I’m gonna be in India with a bowl. kill the thread… theyre too violent…please [drowns] gurggle gurggle[/drown damnit] Rice? Please :begs: Die thread! Die! time for soup ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/118 "2003-10-23T11:20:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*I responded to a one sentence diatribe from a noted Israel basher and all I’ve gotten from you fools is insults and derision. \*\* care to expand upon your statement? I’m a “noted Israel Basher”? of course, If I call for a cite, you’ll ignore it. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/119 "2003-10-23T12:16:50Z")
You are correct, **nqk** , that should have been “ducks and evades without contributing anything of value”. And unfortunately still true. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658/120 "2003-10-23T12:35:55Z")
Well, if you are no longer going to contribute and you think I am “not contributing anything of value” then I guess this thread has run it’s course. I’ll leave you to stew in your own prejudices and refusal to keep an open mind, address the points made and support your own. I’m outta here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-kills-civilians-at-will-wheres-the-difference/208658.md?page=7)