# Israel offered nukes to SA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547 "2010-05-24T07:56:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/61 "2010-05-25T09:56:46Z")
Your bizarre rant aside (which again seems to be something you’ve imagined and are confusing with what I actually said), I’d point out that I also never said that you Israelis are "tough, savvy, forward thinking and logical " Honestly, getting the basic facts right wouldn’t hurt. Speaking of yet again trying to get you to address the actual facts, what treaties do you claim were violated by the Israel/SA relationship, how, and when? By the way, you googled “morally reprehensible” yet? > [@bengangmo](#): > > Ok just to provide the quote an all You do realize that you just deliberately ignored the part where I condemned the relationship (while again repeating your imagined nonsense about me justifying it), and you’ve posted a rant because I pointed out the political calculus that was involved? > [@bengangmo](#): > > I read this as meaning, well we had to do it because the rest of the world was against us. No, you didn’t. Along with “morally reprehensible”, please google “political calculus”. Hint: it doesn’t mean “absolute imperative”. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/62 "2010-05-25T10:09:43Z")
Well, what then is the meaning of “imposed on” Is it anything close to “forced upon”? Or is it more like, “they politely asked”? Is a decision that is “imposed on” me something that I was basically forced to do, or does it have another meaning? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/63 "2010-05-25T11:10:03Z")
You’re asking me to define a term that you used and bears no relation to the political calculus I’ve discussed. The two options you have are to engage with what I’ve actually said, or ignore it and go on about what you’ve imagined I’ve said. I’m not sure what the middle ground is, I’m afraid, since I’m not going to engage with what you’ve imagined I said. Anyways, I’m rather shocked that an Israeli of all people doesn’t understand the situation for your country during the 1970’s. I’ll provide you with a bit of information. [ > [@](#): > > The years after the 1973 Yom Kippur War were a lost decade economically, as growth stalled and inflation reached triple-digit levels. ]([http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > One of the most hidden but critical of South Africa’s strategic relationships during the apartheid era was that with Israel, including both the Labor and the Likud governments. Israel officially opposed the apartheid system, but it also opposed broad international sanctions against Pretoria. For strategic reasons, much of the debate in Israeli government circles stressed coordinating ties to Pretoria within the framework of the tripartite relationship among Jerusalem, the United States (Israel’s primary benefactor), and South Africa. Israel was also opposed to international embargoes in general, largely as a consequence of its own vulnerability to UN and other international sanctions. > > South Africa and Israel had collaborated on military training, weapons development, and weapons production for years before broad sanctions were imposed in the late 1980s. Military cooperation continued despite the arms embargo and other trade restrictions imposed by the United States and much of Western Europe. Israel and several other countries discreetly traded with, and purchased enriched uranium from, South Africa throughout the 1980s. > […] > South Africa provided a market for some of Israel’s military exports. Israel’s arms trade with South Africa was estimated at between US$400 million and US$800 million annually (see Arms Trade and the Defense Industry, ch. 5). ]([South Africa - Relations with Other Countries](http://countrystudies.us/south-africa/85.htm)) This, of course, in the context of the Arab League boycott: [ > [@](#): > > The Arab League was founded in 1944, and in 1945 began a boycott of Zionist > goods and services in the British controlled mandate territory of Palestine. In 1948, > following the war establishing Israel’s independence, the boycott was formalized > against the state of Israel and broadened to include non-Israelis who maintain > economic relations with Israel or who are perceived to support it. The boycott is > administered by the Damascus-based Central Boycott Office, a specialized bureau of > the Arab League. ]([http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33961.pdf](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33961.pdf)) [It is estimated that the Arab League boycott did roughly $45 billion in damages.](http://129.3.20.41/eps/it/papers/9511/9511001.pdf) The Six Day War: [ > [@](#): > > No Arab state had made peace with Israel, and in 1967, events conspired to bring war between Israel and its neighbors – Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. > […] > “In 1967, the mood in the Middle East was ugly,” Shuster reports. “Israel, independent since 1948, was surrounded by Arab states dedicated to its eradication. Egypt was ruled by Gamal Abdel Nasser, a firebrand nationalist whose army was the strongest in the Arab Middle East. Syria was governed by the radical Baathist Party, constantly issuing threats to push Israel into the sea.” > > The Israelis attacked Egypt first, on June 5, 1967, in what most historians say was a defensive move. In the spring of that year, the Soviet Union had led the radical government in Damascus to believe that Israel was planning to invade Syria. Syria shared this misinformation with Nasser. The Egyptian leader closed the Gulf of Aqaba to shipping, cutting off Israel’s primary oil supplies. He also ordered United Nations peacekeepers to leave the Sinai Peninsula. And he sent scores of tanks and hundreds of troops into the Sinai toward Israel. ]([http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history4.html](http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history4.html)) The Yom Kippur War: [when Soviet-backed forces attacked Israel](http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=MVXxUGe9qEkC&dq=%22Peace+Process%22+%22William+Quandt%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=oTVxS6iOBYzq7AOQ3sGPCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAw#v=snippet&q=War%20and%20Reassessment&f=false) after [the Khartoum resolution was based around the famous “three noes”.](http://www.mideastweb.org/khartoum.htm) In this context it should be fairly clear why various Israeli governments engaged in the political calculus that they did and decided to engage in a morally reprehensible path in order to bolster your nation. Understanding the realpolitik considerations that supported that calculus is something that any student of history, and certainly you and your fellow Israelis, should be able to do. If you are unable to understand the historical reality because you can’t get past the moral outrage, then you are failing to understand the actual history at work due to deliberately stopping at the point of emotional outrage. Jonseing for outrage is well and good, but when it gets in the way of understanding the world, it does nobody any service. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/64 "2010-05-25T12:23:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re asking me to define a term that you used and bears no relation to the political calculus I’ve discussed. The two options you have are to engage with what I’ve actually said, or ignore it and go on about what you’ve imagined I’ve said. I’m not sure what the middle ground is, I’m afraid, since I’m not going to engage with what you’ve imagined I said. > > Anyways, I’m rather shocked that an Israeli of all people doesn’t understand the situation for your country during the 1970’s. I’ll provide you with a bit of information. > > [ > > [url=[South Africa - Relations with Other Countries](http://countrystudies.us/south-africa/85.htm)]]([http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm)) > > This, of course, in the context of the Arab League boycott: > > [ > > [URL=“[http://129.3.20.41/eps/it/papers/9511/9511001.pdf](http://129.3.20.41/eps/it/papers/9511/9511001.pdf)”]It is estimated that the Arab League boycott did roughly $45 billion in damages.]([http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33961.pdf](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33961.pdf)) > > The Six Day War: > [ > > The Yom Kippur War: > [url=[Peace Process: American Diplomacy and the Arab-Israeli Conflict since 1967 - William B. Quandt - Google Books](http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=MVXxUGe9qEkC&dq=%22Peace+Process%22+%22William+Quandt%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=oTVxS6iOBYzq7AOQ3sGPCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAw#v=snippet&q=War%20and%20Reassessment&f=false)]when Soviet-backed forces attacked Israel]([http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history4.html](http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history4.html)) after [the Khartoum resolution was based around the famous “three noes”.](http://www.mideastweb.org/khartoum.htm) > > In this context it should be fairly clear why various Israeli governments engaged in the political calculus that they did and decided to engage in a morally reprehensible path in order to bolster your nation. Understanding the realpolitik considerations that supported that calculus is something that any student of history, and certainly you and your fellow Israelis, should be able to do. If you are unable to understand the historical reality because you can’t get past the moral outrage, then you are failing to understand the actual history at work due to deliberately stopping at the point of emotional outrage. > > Jonseing for outrage is well and good, but when it gets in the way of understanding the world, it does nobody any service. Why am I not surprised that you responded with a wall of text and well researched justification and analysis. That’s always the way with you. Which goes back to my original “outrage”. At the end of the day, nuclear weapons were offered, they weren’t supposed to be. Israel was trying to build alliances with one of the most despised regimes of the time. A regime that also “caused” a nefarious chapter in my own country’s history - a wrong that was recently righted. Would it kill you to say “we fucked up”. Period. Not, yeah it was bad, but we were forced into it because the rest of the world hates us. I don’t recall you ever saying “yes Israel did bad”. Its always a variation on “Israel did the right and proper thing considering this that and the other that you don’t understand properly” or “if you were as persecuted as Israel is, you would have done the same thing” And also, I am not Israeli, my apologies for using imprecise (actually lazy) construction that delivered that impression. (there you see, I admitted fault and I didn’t drop dead from a lightening bolt or anything). I am a New Zealander. I’m not Jewish either (actually I pretty much hate all religions that have “god” - however you want to address him, her or it, at the figurehead) And anyway, do you check your PMs or not? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/65 "2010-05-25T12:31:35Z")
Exactly. For some things their just cannot be any excuses. This is one of those times. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/66 "2010-05-25T13:17:02Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Why am I not surprised that you responded with a wall of text and well researched justification and analysis. So you’re unwilling to address let alone deal with the facts and would prefer to handwave them away as a “wall of text” and despite repeated comments by me pointing out that the course of action was morally reprehensible, you’re still sticking to your fantasy that I’m stating some sort of justification. But okay, you seem to want to talk about certain facts, at least. Although you still haven’t offered any substantiation for which treaty you claim was broken when, and how. > [@bengangmo](#): > > At the end of the day, nuclear weapons were offered I’ve already pointed out that the claims for that are thin, indeed. The article makes clear that no such official offer was made and the Israeli government would, in fact, have most likely refused such a deal. The SA memo itself states that the Jericho missiles would have nuclear warheads that were manufactured abroad _or_ in South Africa. The article also concludes that Israel must have been offering nukes to SA because SA was “years” away from building a nuke, and almost exactly two years to the date from the memo’s creation, SA was about to test a nuclear weapon and had already begun preparing the test ground at the time the memo was written. > [@bengangmo](#): > > Would it kill you to say “we fucked up”. Period. I’m not sure what you think the US’ role was in this, but if you’d like to discuss that maybe you should start a separate thread. As for whether or not I’ll trade a reasoned analysis of the facts for pablum? No. > [@bengangmo](#): > > I don’t recall you ever saying “yes Israel did bad”. That’s because you’re reading your imagination, not my posts. I’d yet again advise you to google “morally reprehensible” and see what it means. Hint: it doesn’t mean “justified”. Double hint: it might just mean “bad”. Amanset, you too. Look up “morally reprehensible”. You might just be surprised to find out what it means. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/67 "2010-05-25T16:28:44Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Why am I not surprised that you responded with a wall of text and well researched justification and analysis. That’s always the way with you. I’m really sorry that you have to encountered so much well researched justification and analysis in a forum called Great Debates, but that is a threat you have to face when you attack other posters instead of actually providing your own researched analysis. I agree that Finn’s posts are excitable and he tends to drive all his tacks with a ten pound sledgehammer, but this sort of complaint belongs in another forum. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/68 "2010-05-25T16:59:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That’s because you’re reading your imagination, not my posts. I’d yet again advise you to google “morally reprehensible” and see what it means. > Hint: it doesn’t mean “justified”. Yet \*you \ ***immediately went on to justify it** , within the same sentence. Or is this not you:“but in context it was a realpolitik decision based on the requirements of survival that were imposed on Israel.” I think that’s what he’s talking about. You _couldn’t_ just leave it at “it was morally reprehensible”, full stop, end of post. You never can. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/69 "2010-05-25T18:46:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Except, of course, the RSA was a responsible power, at least militarily. Anyway, at that time, didn’t the RSA have its own bomb? So it would be more like America selling nukes to Britain. > > And remind me, how many nukes has Israel given to terrorist allies? We do not expect Iran to be so restrained. Why do we think that an otherwise rational (tyrannical but still rational) government would give nukes to terrorists? The reason you don’t want nukes in Iran isn’t because a nuclear Iran means a nuclear al-qaeda. The reason you don’t want a nuclear Iran is because a nuclear Iran means a nuclear arms race in the middle east and an Iran that can do whatever it wants without fear of international reprisal forevermore. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/70 "2010-05-25T18:48:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The reason you don’t want nukes in Iran isn’t because a nuclear Iran means a nuclear al-qaeda. The reason you don’t want a nuclear Iran is because a nuclear Iran means a nuclear arms race in the middle east and an Iran that can do whatever it wants without fear of international reprisal forevermore. Why does it have to be one or the other? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/71 "2010-05-25T19:05:10Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I think the OPs intent is to suggest that the US and the world need to stop looking at Israel as the perpetual victim and eternally innocent player, that it never really was. I think the US is trending towards a more realistic view of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/72 "2010-05-25T19:07:35Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Compared with what - attacking civilian areas in tanks, helicopter gunships and the best weaponry money can buy? Who is inflicting the most terror? > > Is a Palestinian’s terror worth x amount less than an Israeli’s? Perhaps to an Israeli soldier it is. I am going to guess that Americans in Afghanistan think American lives are more important than Afghani lives. I don’t know how you avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/73 "2010-05-25T19:11:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army”. You don’t get the terrorist label if you spread your terror using guys in uniforms, even if your behavior is basically indistinguishable. I don’t agree. When you strap a bomb to your chest and walk into a starbucks and blow yourself up, you are not engaging in mere military action. You are making a statement. this isn’t just assymetrical warfare, its something far more disturbing than that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/74 "2010-05-25T19:20:26Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Actually no, I responded that you, as per expected had a justification for it. A justification, that as usual rests on the claim that the rest of the world is against Israel so whatever it does is ok. > > Much as I disagree with Alessan, at least he offers reasoned posts and cops to things that are disgraceful, you always have a justification that fully excuses Israel no matter what. And its always a justification that if it wasnt for how tuff, savvy, forward thinking and logical us Israelis are the rest of the world would take the opportunity to exterminate us like the vermin we think they think we are. Finn Again is a stalwart defender of Israel and he has convinced himself that all his arguments are rational and that anything that conflicts with his position is based on irrationality, ignorance, or anti-semitism. Don’t let it bother you his method of argument is only effective at getting people to stop arguing with him, its not so effective at getting people to agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/75 "2010-05-25T19:22:09Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Actually no, I responded that you, as per expected had a justification for it. A justification, that as usual rests on the claim that the rest of the world is against Israel so whatever it does is ok. > > Much as I disagree with Alessan, at least he offers reasoned posts and cops to things that are disgraceful, you always have a justification that fully excuses Israel no matter what. And its always a justification that if it wasnt for how tuff, savvy, forward thinking and logical us Israelis are the rest of the world would take the opportunity to exterminate us like the vermin we think they think we are. Don’t let him do it. he will draw you into a debate about peripheral issues and totally ignore the issue at hand. He will pick some error you made on the margin and claim that the error proves taht youa re wrong about everything and he is right about everything. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/76 "2010-05-25T19:24:42Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Would it kill you to say “we fucked up”. Period. > > Not, yeah it was bad, but we were forced into it because the rest of the world hates us. > > I don’t recall you ever saying “yes Israel did bad”. > > Its always a variation on “Israel did the right and proper thing considering this that and the other that you don’t understand properly” or “if you were as persecuted as Israel is, you would have done the same thing” I think it might actually kill him to ever admit that Israel did anything wrong or worthy fo criticism. Everything Israel does no matter is justified by the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/77 "2010-05-25T19:27:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why does it have to be one or the other? I dunno, it could be some other reason but the main threat I have heard a nuclear Iran presents is a nuclear arms race in the middle east which will destabilize an already destabilized region. The last thing we need is for the middle east to look like sub-saharan Africa but with Nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/78 "2010-05-25T19:48:54Z")
**Damuri Ajashi** , that’s more than enough personal commentary about **FinnAgain**. This is a formal warning: when you’re posting in Great Debates, attack the post, not the poster. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Finn Again is a stalwart defender of Israel and he has convinced himself that all his arguments are rational and that anything that conflicts with his position is based on irrationality, ignorance, or anti-semitism. > > Don’t let it bother you his method of argument is only effective at getting people to stop arguing with him, its not so effective at getting people to agree with him. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Don’t let him do it. he will draw you into a debate about peripheral issues and totally ignore the issue at hand. He will pick some error you made on the margin and claim that the error proves taht youa re wrong about everything and he is right about everything. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think it might actually kill him to ever admit that Israel did anything wrong or worthy fo criticism. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/79 "2010-05-25T20:12:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yet \*you \ ***immediately went on to justify it** , Yoo too Dibble. Google “morally reprehensible”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Or is this not you:“but in context it was a realpolitik decision based on the requirements of survival that were imposed on Israel.” You do realize that the context of an event is not its justification, right? If we’re talking about a hostage situation where a crazed methhead has a knife to a toddler’s throat and the police try to rush him, resulting in him killings the kid? Of course killing kids is still an evil thing to do. By the same token, getting all bent out of shape if someone says “Of course the guy was scum in the first place and killing kids is vile. But by rushing him, the police made the situation much worse and they should’ve waited for a sniper?” And if someone then claimed “You’re justifying the guy killing a toddler! You can’t even say the methhead did anything wrong!”, well, most people would recognize such a response for what it was. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You _couldn’t_ just leave it at “it was morally reprehensible”, full stop, end of post. Wait, so in a forum called Great Debates I didn’t just leave it at simple anger with a side of “Grrrr!” and I actually discussed the complex interactions of history and circumstance which surrounded the events? That’s pretty horrible of me. I’ll try to stick to ranting instead of all this ‘contextual analysis’. Maybe in the next discussion of the Domino Theory that I see I won’t talk about the events of the time and not only will I just say “The US did bad!” I’ll take all those folks to task who try to analyze the political calculations on both sides of the iron curtain. Because, really, who wants to read all that in a discussion about the historical nature of a series of events? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547/80 "2010-05-25T20:57:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yoo too Dibble. Google “morally reprehensible”. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > You do realize that the context of an event is not its justification, right? Actually, it is - if something’s really “morally reprehensible”, context isn’t going to make it any better, so the only reason to bring up context is to justify why someone would commit such an act. To excuse it or explain it does nothing about its moral status, so why bring it up when the question is simply whether it’s right or not? > [@](#): > > And if someone then claimed “You’re justifying the guy killing a toddler! You can’t even say the methhead did anything wrong!”, well, most people would recognize such a response for what it was. Nice analogy, but Israel wasn’t the cops in that scenario, they were the knifeman. You’re justifying why he cut the throat, not why the cops did whatever. > [@](#): > > Wait, so in a forum called Great Debates I didn’t just leave it at simple anger with a side of “Grrrr!” and I actually discussed the complex interactions of history and circumstance which surrounded the events? That’s pretty horrible of me. I’ll try to stick to ranting instead of all this ‘contextual analysis’. Sometimes, you can take the justifications and leave them for a later post. IMO. Or your reputation as \*just \*a dittohead apologist isn’t going to go away, deserved or not. > [@](#): > > Maybe in the next discussion of the Domino Theory that I see I won’t talk about the events of the time and not only will I just say “The US did bad!” I’ll take all those folks to task who try to analyze the political calculations on both sides of the iron curtain. Because, really, who wants to read all that in a discussion about the historical nature of a series of events? Discussion has its place, and sometimes it doesn’t. Especially if the perception (deserved or not) is that you always, unfailingly, tack on a justification for what Israel does. Hell, we all know there are reasons why Israel does what it does. You don’t see me tacking on “but they’re justified in feeling they have no other method of waging war because XYZ…” onto every comment I make about Palestinians, do you? I could, if you like, but it doesn’t always need saying, and sometimes I can just say “No, using suicide bombers is bad” full stop, without feeling people are going to suddenly feel I’m giving them some moral victory.. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-offered-nukes-to-sa/540547.md?page=5)