# Israel or Hamas - who do you think is in the right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 27, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139 "2014-07-27T01:41:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/21 "2014-07-27T17:21:45Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > I would suggest a new strategy but the situation is too complicated for anything I suggest to be meaningful. I really think Israel and the Palestinians who do not support Hamas should be working on a way to neutralize Hamas together, but that doesn’t seem to be happening. Hamas are the elected government. Just before Israel’s most recent unprovoked attack started they signed a unity agreement with their main Palestinian opposition, the Fatah. The problem isn’t Hamas, who didn’t start the current conflict, its the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/22 "2014-07-27T18:17:33Z")
This time, or the previous three times? John Oliver did a good bit on this, showing Anderson Cooper reporting the exact same scenario in 2012, 2009, and in 2006. Not just similar; _the exact same story_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/23 "2014-07-27T18:30:21Z")
I voted “Israel” but that’s because those were my options. If the poll was “Israelis or **Palestinians** ” I’d vote “Neither” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/24 "2014-07-27T20:03:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I read a newspaper report today that Hamas has spent an estimated million dollars to build each of its tunnels into Israel They need to find a contractor who is not on the take. ---
**Author:** ![FeAudrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/25 "2014-07-27T20:11:33Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > … The trick with using a human shield is that it’s supposed to _work…_ Say what? The use of human shields is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions: [http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1\_cha\_chapter32\_rule97](http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter32_rule97) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/26 "2014-07-27T20:46:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I read a newspaper report today that Hamas has spent an estimated million dollars to build each of its tunnels into Israel (using many tons of concrete for reinforcement, while Israel was blasted for limiting its importation into Gaza for just this reason). So far 36 such tunnels have been discovered and there are probably many more out there. That’s a huge amount of money (not counting what’s spent on munitions) that Hamas could be using to feed and educate its people. > **[Report: Hamas Used Child Labor to Build Terror Tunnels; Hundreds Killed](https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/27/report-hamas-used-child-labor-to-build-tunnels-hundreds-died/)** > > Hamas killed hundreds of children in the construction of its extensive tunnel network, built partly to carry out attacks on children across the Gaza | Pelham wrote that despite the economic success of the tunnels underneath the Egyptian border, which enriched Hamas through a thriving black market as well as arming it with new weapons, there were a few drawbacks. One of these was a “cavalier approach to child labor and tunnel fatalities,” he noted. “During a police patrol that the author was permitted to accompany in December 2011, nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies. At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials” (emphasis added). Though some children likely worked voluntarily, the fact that there were public complaints about child deaths, to which Hamas felt compelled to respond at least superficially, is evidence of some amount of coercion. The number of deaths since 2012 has yet to be reported, but almost certainly exceeds the number Pelham reported. To sum up: Hamas is not only using child labor, but likely child slavery, in building its terror tunnel network. While the world worries obsessively over the child casualties of Israeli attacks on Hamas targets in Gaza, it has ignored Hamas’s deliberate killing of hundreds of Palestinian children, over the objections of the local populace. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/27 "2014-07-27T21:30:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [T]he fact that there were public complaints about child deaths … is evidence of some amount of coercion. See, that kind of childish logic is why you don’t use brietbart as any kind of a source (if you expect to be taken seriously). I’m sure there is plenty of waste, fraud and abuse, and I’m pretty sure the tunnels were extremely costly (on multiple levels), but given breitbart’s penchant for logical skullfucking, quoting them as some sort of outlet for facts has the opposite effect you’re probably looking for. I grew up believing that Israel wore the white hats, that they made the desert bloom through the goodness of their hearts, spirit and tenacious work ethic. But then I actually grew up, and have long been horrified, repulsed and ashamed by their political choices and repugnant rationalizations. It’s as if their policy has long been dominated by their equivalents to Sara Palin, Michelle Bachman and Ted Cruzes. Stop building illegal settlements and abandon those that have been built. I’ve “planted” about twenty trees over there … they should cut them down to build coffins for Palestinian children. (This doesn’t make Hamas any less of a bag of fucks, by my emotional ire is directed at the evil who fooled me for so long.) ---
**Author:** ![MrsTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@MrsTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrsTime)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/28 "2014-07-27T22:05:25Z")
There have always been Jews in Israel, the Palestinians arrived from Syria and Jordan. When the Jews returned to their homeland they were met by everyone surrounding them who wanted to “push them into the sea”, that is an euphemism for “kill them all”. Then they proceeded to try to kill them all the Israeli’s then fought back …they fought back with a real determination to hold their land all the while making the desert bloom and feed the people. So I would suggest the Palestinians return to their homelands. Either go home or stop the attacks on Israel, I believe the Israeli’s would live in peace with them in such a case. However they Hamas has even refused the offers of a cease fire, and they have always been the ones who broke previous cease fires. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/29 "2014-07-27T22:19:52Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > I can’t argue that any nation has to standby while someone is launching rockets at them, even if all the rockets miss their targets. > > I just worry that quarantining the Palestinians and using military force that kills many civilians isn’t the best way for Israel to defend itself. It seems more of a political strategy rather than a practical one. Many Palestinians who do not support Hamas die and suffer because of it. > > I would suggest a new strategy but the situation is too complicated for anything I suggest to be meaningful. I really think Israel and the Palestinians who do not support Hamas should be working on a way to neutralize Hamas together, but that doesn’t seem to be happening. > > Basically I think Israel should defend itself, but it’s current strategy doesn’t look helpful, and I’m not sure there is anything it could do to improve it. Put WAY better than I could on my best day. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/30 "2014-07-27T22:31:11Z")
> [@MrsTime](#): > > There have always been Jews in Israel, the Palestinians arrived from Syria and Jordan. When the Jews returned to their homeland they were met by everyone surrounding them… “Always been Jews in Israel” and “the Jews [who] returned to their homeland” are two different cohorts of people. As said by others upthread, it doesn’t mean Hamas et al are good to say the latter cohort is bad. That they were met by people who wanted to defend _their_ “homeland” is understandable. ---
**Author:** ![MrsTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@MrsTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrsTime)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/31 "2014-07-27T23:18:10Z")
I must be mistaken in believing that Jews pretty much all believe in the same god? So how are the Jews who were always in Israel different from other Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/32 "2014-07-27T23:55:54Z")
> [@MrsTime](#): > > So how are \*\*the Jews who were always in Israel \*\*different from other Jews? You answered your own question. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/33 "2014-07-28T00:08:31Z")
Hamas is a terrorist organization, yeah. But that only gives Israel even more responsibility to be the one to act morally. (Get out of Gaza/West Bank, etc) Nobody wants to give, it’s always, “well, if THEY would just…” Whoever started out being in the right, it’s gotten to the point where neither of them have the moral high ground. They’re not going to stop until they’ve completely destroyed each other. You could say Israel are the GOOD guys, since they’re not the terrorists, but that doesn’t make them right – it’s just one big mess. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/34 "2014-07-28T00:16:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Whoever started out being in the right, it’s gotten to the point where neither of them have the moral high ground. It’s entirely possible that neither started out being in the right, that both sides (sides in general, not just Hamas) think the other committed the first ‘wrong’ act. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/35 "2014-07-28T00:17:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Hamas is a terrorist organization, yeah. But that only gives Israel even more responsibility to be the one to act morally. (Get out of Gaza/West Bank, etc) Nobody wants to give, it’s always, “well, if THEY would just…” They did leave Gaza, and the folks there began firing rockets into Israel. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/36 "2014-07-28T05:25:26Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They did leave Gaza, and the folks there began firing rockets into Israel. You are going to confuse them if you start stating facts. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/37 "2014-07-28T05:41:49Z")
Thinking that it’s necessary to pick sides is part of the problem. Is Hamas an insane terrorist group? Sure. Should we holda modern democracy like Israel to higher standards than this? Also true. One thing doesn’t negate the other. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/38 "2014-07-28T12:23:18Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > … The trick with using a human shield is that it’s supposed to work… > [@FeAudrey](#): > > Say what? The use of human shields is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions: > > [http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1\_cha\_chapter32\_rule97](http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter32_rule97) Okay, the idea is that if you use a human shield (which violates the Geneva Conventions and makes you the bad guy), then the other guy won’t take the shot IF HE’S THE GOOD GUY. Israel is taking the shot. Israel is not the good guy. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/39 "2014-07-28T16:31:20Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Okay, the idea is that if you use a human shield (which violates the Geneva Conventions and makes you the bad guy), then the other guy won’t take the shot IF HE’S THE GOOD GUY. Israel is taking the shot. Israel is not the good guy. ^ This. If Hamas had successfully infiltrated Israel with the tunnels and was firing missiles from an Israeli school filled with children, I doubt Israel would be shelling it. If you listen carefully to Netanyahu in his interviews, he is de-humanizing the Palestinians. It’s easy to shell a school-ful of kids when they are not human and bombs are being launched from there. However, if it were _ **Israelis** _ we were talking about, well, thennnnn… I do not give the bastards from Hamas a free pass, either. I just regret civilians are being caught in the cross-fire, again. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/40 "2014-07-28T16:41:05Z")
Neither one, but if the choice was “Israel or Palestinians” I’d of course choose the Palestinians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=3)