# Israel or Hamas - who do you think is in the right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 27, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139 "2014-07-27T01:41:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/41 "2014-07-28T17:47:36Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Okay, the idea is that if you use a human shield (which violates the Geneva Conventions and makes you the bad guy), then the other guy won’t take the shot IF HE’S THE GOOD GUY. Israel is taking the shot. Israel is not the good guy. Nope. Making human shields a tactic that always works is a really, really shitty idea. The way it is actually examined in “just war” theory is rather more sensible: a military tactic is “justified” if the risks to civilians are ‘proportinate’ to a legitimate military objective. If it were not that way, one side could freely strap babies on its cannons and win every battle against a “moral” enemy. This way, the guy who uses human shields is always bad, and the guy who shoots at him may or may not be bad, depending on the usual just war approach. I for one am against the use of babies as reactive armour … ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/42 "2014-07-28T17:48:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > As I understand it, Hamas started the current hostilities with rocket attacks. You can put the start date in a lot of places, and which you choose says a lot about your perception of the conflict (or what media you follow). The rocket attacks were in response to the Israeli government arresting nearly all of Hamas’s West Bank political leaders along with hundreds of others, and barring thousands from going to work. Israel did so in retaliation for an act which at least one spokesman for the Israeli government now concedes that Hamas did not commit: the heinous kidnapping and execution of three teenage Israeli settlers, apparently the work of some other Palestinian militants. (Moreover, at least one Palestinian was apparently killed in retaliation for that kidnapping by Israeli extremists.) Those militants presumably targeted these teenagers in response to Israel’s illegal expansion of settlements into the West Bank. And on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/43 "2014-07-28T17:52:51Z")
Can we change the poll to ask: Which side are you more positively inclined towards: () Palestinians () the guys that kidnapped a random Palestinian teenager and executed him as revenge for the kidnap and execution of three Israeli teenagers? Phrasing the poll this way seems to equate Palestinians with Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/44 "2014-07-28T17:55:34Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > ^ This. If Hamas had successfully infiltrated Israel with the tunnels and was firing missiles from an Israeli school filled with children, I doubt Israel would be shelling it. If you listen carefully to Netanyahu in his interviews, he is de-humanizing the Palestinians. It’s easy to shell a school-ful of kids when they are not human and bombs are being launched from there. However, if it were _ **Israelis** _ we were talking about, well, thennnnn… > > I do not give the bastards from Hamas a free pass, either. I just regret civilians are being caught in the cross-fire, again. I doubt that any national government, in any war, has ever considered putting its own civilans at the exact same same risk as enemy civilians. Nor is such a position usually demanded by just war theorists, for the obvious reason that it is nuts. National governments exist to protect citizens of a particular nation. While there are rules dealing with civilized conflict between nations, stating that one cannot deliberately target the civilian populations of an enemy, they do not demand that national governments protect citizens of an enemy with the same rigour that they protect their own. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/45 "2014-07-28T17:56:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Can we change the poll to ask: > > Which side are you more positively inclined towards: > () Palestinians > () the guys that kidnapped a random Palestinian teenager and executed him as revenge for the kidnap and execution of three Israeli teenagers? > > Phrasing the poll this way seems to equate Palestinians with Hamas. The current conflict is between Israel and Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/46 "2014-07-28T17:58:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Can we change the poll to ask: > > Which side are you more positively inclined towards: > () Palestinians > () the guys that kidnapped a random Palestinian teenager and executed him as revenge for the kidnap and execution of three Israeli teenagers? > > Phrasing the poll this way seems to equate Palestinians with Hamas. There’s a big old skull and crossbones next to this well, Trigger, I guess we’ll have to hope there’s water ahead. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/47 "2014-07-28T18:00:31Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > ^ This. If Hamas had successfully infiltrated Israel with the tunnels and was firing missiles from an Israeli school filled with children, I doubt Israel would be shelling it. If you listen carefully to Netanyahu in his interviews, he is de-humanizing the Palestinians. It’s easy to shell a school-ful of kids when they are not human and bombs are being launched from there. However, if it were _ **Israelis** _ we were talking about, well, thennnnn… > > I do not give the bastards from Hamas a free pass, either. I just regret civilians are being caught in the cross-fire, again. Every country places a higher priority on the lives of its own people. If the British government had to choose between saving the lives of 40 Britons or 50 Ethiopians, the choice would probably be the 40 Britons each time. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/48 "2014-07-28T18:05:22Z")
Hamas is a terrorist organization, right? The Palestinian people as a whole have legitimate rights that Israel tramples all over, but Hamas is a thug organization bent on violence… as far as I was aware. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/49 "2014-07-28T18:08:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Every country places a higher priority on the lives of its own people. > > If the British government had to choose between saving the lives of 40 Britons or 50 Ethiopians, the choice would probably be the 40 Britons each time. The charge has been made in the current conflict that this is one of the problems with Hamas: they are willing to sacrifice their own people for the sake of publicity. They hide their weapons in schools and hospitals, and are delighted at the high body counts of Palestinians which gives them better press and wins people over to their side. It’s appalling. (This is not just an Israeli charge, I heard a Hamas big-wig this morning on the radio, asked about this, saying “All of our people are soldiers.” He didn’t deny it.) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/50 "2014-07-28T18:09:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Every country places a higher priority on the lives of its own people. > > If the British government had to choose between saving the lives of 40 Britons or 50 Ethiopians, the choice would probably be the 40 Britons each time. What if the Britons were illegally occupying land in Ethiopia and destroying the lives, homes and property of Ethiopians? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/51 "2014-07-28T18:37:04Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > I can’t argue that any nation has to standby while someone is launching rockets at them, even if all the rockets miss their targets. > > I just worry that quarantining the Palestinians and using military force that kills many civilians isn’t the best way for Israel to defend itself. It seems more of a political strategy rather than a practical one. Many Palestinians who do not support Hamas die and suffer because of it. > > I would suggest a new strategy but the situation is too complicated for anything I suggest to be meaningful. I really think Israel and the Palestinians who do not support Hamas should be working on a way to neutralize Hamas together, but that doesn’t seem to be happening. > > Basically I think Israel should defend itself, but it’s current strategy doesn’t look helpful, and I’m not sure there is anything it could do to improve it. Yes, Hamas is clearly in the wrong here, but Israel’s hands aren’t clean, either. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/52 "2014-07-28T18:39:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You can put the start date in a lot of places, and which you choose says a lot about your perception of the conflict (or what media you follow). > > The rocket attacks were in response to the Israeli government arresting nearly all of Hamas’s West Bank political leaders along with hundreds of others, and barring thousands from going to work. Israel did so in retaliation for an act which at least one spokesman for the Israeli government now concedes that Hamas did not commit: the heinous kidnapping and execution of three teenage Israeli settlers, apparently the work of some other Palestinian militants. (Moreover, at least one Palestinian was apparently killed in retaliation for that kidnapping by Israeli extremists.) Those militants presumably targeted these teenagers in response to Israel’s illegal expansion of settlements into the West Bank. > > And on and on. True, but Hamas started\* the violence\*. Hamas had political channels to use, they choose random violence against helpless civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/53 "2014-07-28T18:42:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True, but Hamas started\* the violence\*. > > Hamas had political channels to use, they choose random violence against helpless civilians. So if Israel killed or injured anyone while arresting hundreds of people not involved in the kidnapping of the teenage settlers, then you’d say Israel started it and was in the wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/54 "2014-07-28T18:45:16Z")
Onion article: [Israel’s, Hamas’ Disregard For Palestinian Life Aligning Nicely](http://www.theonion.com/articles/israels-hamas-disregard-for-palestinian-life-align,36531/) > [@The Onion](#): > > “Say what you want about Israel and Hamas, but at the end of the day, at least give them credit for how harmoniously their separate actions came together to create innocent civilian casualties. They might be dead set on one another’s destruction, fine, but you can’t say they don’t make one hell of a complementary team when it comes to Palestinians dying.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/55 "2014-07-28T18:45:54Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So if Israel killed or injured anyone while arresting hundreds of people not involved in the kidnapping of the teenage settlers, then you’d say Israel started it and was in the wrong? Once again, and with emphasis: when you arrest people, the goal is to arrest them. Not to injure or kill them. Any injuries or deaths are not intentional. On the other hand, when you send unguided rockets into cities, your goal is to injure and kill. Period. Full stop. No other argument possible. It takes exceptional lack of moral compass not to understand this distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/56 "2014-07-28T18:47:17Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > What if the Britons were illegally occupying land in Ethiopia and destroying the lives, homes and property of Ethiopians? Then Ethiopia would have a valid cause for going to war with the UK. However, that would not change the fact that, in the event of such a war, the UK would rightly act to protect its civilians first, and treat Etheopian civilians as required by the rules of war. Nothing “requires” one nation at war place civilians of an enemy nation at par with its own. Maybe in world without nations, or wars. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/57 "2014-07-28T18:54:36Z")
I do not know for a certainty whether anyone is in the right in Gaza. I do, however, know that Hamas is in the wrong. I refrain from passing judgement on Israel because I do not have all of the information: It may well be that there is some less destructive course of action available to Israel, and that they are choosing not to take it. But if there is such a course, I have never seen anyone suggest what it is. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/58 "2014-07-28T19:54:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I do not know for a certainty whether anyone is in the right in Gaza. I do, however, know that Hamas is in the wrong. I refrain from passing judgement on Israel because I do not have all of the information: It may well be that there is some less destructive course of action available to Israel, and that they are choosing not to take it. But if there is such a course, I have never seen anyone suggest what it is. This ↑↑↑ ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/59 "2014-07-28T20:47:43Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > The charge has been made in the current conflict that this is one of the problems with Hamas: they are willing to sacrifice their own people for the sake of publicity. They hide their weapons in schools and hospitals, and are delighted at the high body counts of Palestinians which gives them better press and wins people over to their side. It’s appalling. (This is not just an Israeli charge, I heard a Hamas big-wig this morning on the radio, asked about this, saying “All of our people are soldiers.” He didn’t deny it.) That is exactly why in the simplistic poll I voted Israel. The goals of Hamas are met by making their people into human sacrifices. They learned from Arafat who became a billionaire while crying poverty and letting his people starve in camps. I wish that Israel could come up with better strategy that lowered the risk to civilians. But I can’t come up with one. And I know how I would feel if Canada started lobbing rockets at upstate NY. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/60 "2014-07-28T20:49:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I doubt that any national government, in any war, has ever considered putting its own civilans at the exact same same risk as enemy civilians. Nor is such a position usually demanded by just war theorists, for the obvious reason that it is nuts. National governments exist to protect citizens of a particular nation. . . . Also, it might not work, and just makes the other side that much angrier. In WWII, the Japanese put POWs in cities that were under aerial bombardment. The Allies bombed anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=4)