# Israel or Hamas - who do you think is in the right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 27, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139 "2014-07-27T01:41:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/121 "2014-07-30T15:55:38Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > As the rocket attacks have been so ineffectual, they are starting more and more to look like a pretext rather than a provocation. The rocket attacks been ineffectual largely because Israel has been effective at defending against them. A significant part of that defense has been strikes against the rocket launching locations. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/122 "2014-07-30T19:11:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, those tunnels into Israel (a few whose targets were (I am not kidding) kindergartens in the nearby kibbutzim) are not “provocations”. I don’t understand the idea that Israel is obligated morally to wait until after Hamas kills a lot of civilians before they can act. Isn’t it better to take out the tunnels before they are used, instead of waiting until after? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/123 "2014-07-30T19:16:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t understand the idea that Israel is obligated morally to wait until after Hamas kills a lot of civilians before they can act. Isn’t it better to take out the tunnels before they are used, instead of waiting until after? Like the world looks at Israel more favorably in any way when lots of Israeli civilians die? Fisk just tweeted “what if it was 800 Israelis dead”? Well guess what, moron, in the so-called “second intifada” 1000+ Israeli civilians were killed. Did the world look at Israel more sympathetically? Did the world turn more anti-Palestinian? No? Then go to hell with your “what ifs”. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/124 "2014-07-30T19:16:41Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’ve changed my mind. Israel is in the wrong. They are bombing hospitals and power plants. They have become what they despise – and what I despise. As the rocket attacks have been so ineffectual, they are starting more and more to look like a pretext rather than a provocation. Hospitals where Hamas gathers up human shields? Power plants Hamas uses to to extort taxes that pay for terrorism? Hamas needs to go down. Everyone but the Western media seems to think so. Western media is also obsessed with click-bait cat videos. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/125 "2014-07-30T19:46:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Like the world looks at Israel more favorably in any way when lots of Israeli civilians die? No, it’s for sure they wouldn’t. Which I also don’t understand - **why** does Hamas win the PR war? Hamas is using human shields and directly attacking Israel. They are building tunnels and hiding their rocket launchers in schools and hospitals. And Israel has made all kinds of concessions. In return they get blamed because the Palestinians stonewall on negotiations. Like I said before - Israel makes a concession and gives the Palestinians part of what they want - a moratorium on settlements in the West Bank. In return - they get _nothing_ except a demand from the Palestinians that they be given the rest of what they want. Israel gives up land for peace. They give up the land, but they sure as hell don’t get the peace. “Give me everything I ask for; then we can start negotiating” is _not_ how you form an agreement that both sides can live with long-term. Maybe Israel is making a mistake by making concessions and offers. That makes them appear reasonable. If Hamas makes it clear that they are not going to be reasonable, and will never offer anything in return, and the rest of the world wants peace, then the pressure is going always to be on Israel to continue to make concessions and not get anything in return. Giving up land for peace is one thing. Giving up land for nothing is another. Maybe the approach should be to take the settlements off the table. "Sorry, Hamas, you had a chance to negotiate and you declined. All the land with settlements on it is Israeli territory forever. Let us know when you want to negotiate anything else." Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/126 "2014-07-31T02:35:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which I also don’t understand - **why** does Hamas win the PR war? > > Regards, > Shodan Some people don’t like Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/127 "2014-07-31T02:53:30Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Hospitals where Hamas gathers up human shields? Power plants Hamas uses to to extort taxes that pay for terrorism? > > Hamas needs to go down. Everyone but the Western media seems to think so. Western media is also obsessed with click-bait cat videos. Oh, the western media does not have any love for Hamas. They just don’t equate them with Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/128 "2014-07-31T02:59:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Oh, the western media does not have any love for Hamas. They just don’t equate them with Palestinians. It doesn’t? Ok - show me one news clip that shows actual Hamas fighters on the streets of Gaza. There are plenty showing Israelis. But if you only watched “western media”, you would get the idea that the Israeli soldiers are the only soldiers on those streets. You know - wantonly killing Palestinian civilians. It’s a wonder that 56 Israeli soldiers died in action. Probably all those “civilians” fighting them, right? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/129 "2014-07-31T03:29:57Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Oh, the western media does not have any love for Hamas. Maybe not, but the media sure do a good job of portraying Hamas just how Hamas likes it – sympathetically, without criticism, and devoid of pesky questions. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/130 "2014-07-31T03:57:15Z")
I see human interest stories about a hot Palestinian guy who just wants to run his fabulous Palestinian food restaurant if it weren’t for those pesky Israeli bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/131 "2014-07-31T04:34:59Z")
I’m not seeing the sympathy. Hamas is generally acknowledged to be the ones that started the current conflict. I haven’t seen any mainstream media source say Israel started it. I haven’t seen any mainstream media source say it’s both sides’ fault that it started. There’s a general agreement that it’s Hamas that started it. But the numbers indicate that Israel is really giving Hamas a curb-stomping at this point. How many women and children does Israel have to kill to be satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/132 "2014-07-31T04:40:52Z")
Well, a curb stomping doesn’t always make the curb stomper the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/133 "2014-07-31T04:45:50Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, a curb stomping doesn’t always make the curb stomper the bad guy. When the opponent is down and out and you’re just kicking him in the head a lot, don’t expect anyone to admire your heroism. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/134 "2014-07-31T04:49:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > When the opponent is down and out and you’re just kicking him in the head a lot, don’t expect anyone to admire your heroism. The opponent says “your nation must die.” Commence curb stomping. It sucks. It really does. NO ONE debates that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/135 "2014-07-31T04:51:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > . . . How many women and children does Israel have to kill to be satisfied? Zero. Zero civilian casualties would be Israel’s ideal war. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/136 "2014-07-31T05:06:57Z")
If they keep hiding behind women & kids & keep shooting at me, I would keep killing until they quit shooting at me & mine or I finally killed all the bad guys behind the women & kids. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/137 "2014-07-31T06:39:07Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > If they keep hiding behind women & kids & keep shooting at me, I would keep killing until they quit shooting at me & mine or I finally killed all the bad guys behind the women & kids. Me too… But I would never, ever, be “satisfied” with that kind of thing. One is one too many. I just blame the people who use civilians as shields more than I blame the people shooting through those shields. What was the line from Crimson Tide? War itself is the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/138 "2014-07-31T06:51:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The difficulty in the case of Hamas is that you are dealing with an organization that specifically disavows ever making any sort of peace with Israel - indeed, that is part of its very constitution. > > There is no evidence that addressing the legitimate complaints of Palestinians would do anything to soften that stance. Indeed, the best hope for addressing ‘legitimate complaints’ would be to gradually undermine Palestinain support for Hamas. However, given that Hamas now rules through intimidation as well as popularity, this would be a very long-range strategy indeed, and do nothing in the short or intermediate term to prevent Hamas from carrying out attacks. Yeah…but two questions a) How much damage are the mortar attacks doing in the meantime? b) Hasn’t this been going on for what, 60 years? Two generations? How long range do you want? c) Wasn’t the restoration of Japan / Germany after WW2 also pretty long range? how long did that take? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/139 "2014-07-31T09:26:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it’s for sure they wouldn’t. > > Which I also don’t understand - **why** does Hamas win the PR war? Hamas is using human shields and directly attacking Israel. They are building tunnels and hiding their rocket launchers in schools and hospitals. And Israel has made all kinds of concessions. In return they get blamed because the Palestinians stonewall on negotiations. > > Like I said before - Israel makes a concession and gives the Palestinians part of what they want - a moratorium on settlements in the West Bank. In return - they get _nothing_ except a demand from the Palestinians that they be given the rest of what they want. Israel gives up land for peace. They give up the land, but they sure as hell don’t get the peace. > > “Give me everything I ask for; then we can start negotiating” is _not_ how you form an agreement that both sides can live with long-term. > > Maybe Israel is making a mistake by making concessions and offers. That makes them appear reasonable. If Hamas makes it clear that they are not going to be reasonable, and will never offer anything in return, and the rest of the world wants peace, then the pressure is going always to be on Israel to continue to make concessions and not get anything in return. > > Giving up land for peace is one thing. Giving up land for nothing is another. > > Maybe the approach should be to take the settlements off the table. "Sorry, Hamas, you had a chance to negotiate and you declined. All the land with settlements on it is Israeli territory forever. > > Let us know when you want to negotiate anything else." > > Regards, > Shodan Hamas have offered [terms for a ten year ceasefire](http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=713579). The Israelis refused to even negotiate. All terms are clearly aimed at making life in the Gaza Strip more bearable, and include reinstating their industrial zone, allowing importation of things needed to run the power station, allowing fishing boats to go slightly further out to sea, although not even close to international waters, and releasing the political prisoners they released in the last armistice, and then rearrested while attempting to provoke the current crisis. And of course they want Israel to stop trying to destroy the Hamas/Fatah coalition. They’d also like the tanks to be moved back from the border so Gaza farmers can tend their fields safely. There’s a [revised proposal](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4546363,00.html) backed by France. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/140 "2014-07-31T12:54:37Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Hamas have offered [terms for a ten year ceasefire](http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=713579). The Israelis refused to even negotiate. I [don’t](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13027-hamas-israel-refused-ceasefire-initiative-during-un-chiefs-visit) think it is [accurate](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/hamas-calls-israel-truce-terms-unacceptable-2014726215325112860.html) to say that [Israe](http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.608133#!)l is[refusing](http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/hamas-will-reportedly-declare-three-day-truce/375219/)to [negotiate](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/hamas-armed-wing-no-truce-if-siege-continues-201472919386617240.html). Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=8)