# Israel or Hamas - who do you think is in the right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 27, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139 "2014-07-27T01:41:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/161 "2014-08-01T19:08:04Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I will tell you what I’m advocating with the caveat that I know there is information I don’t have, tactics I’m not aware of, and things just may not turn out wonderfully for Israel like I’ve predicted, but there is a chance that things will and this represents my best guess at how things will be. And whatever short-term damage Israel takes is all for the sake of long-term stability. Ok? We’re clear on that? Alright. > > First thing’s first, I’m against the status quo. Its been proven not to have worked. The goal is total peace, maybe not like the friendship between US and Canada, then more like China and Japan where they freely acknowledge that they don’t especially like each other and extremists will whip up fury against the other for their own benefits, but both governments recognize the other and disputes are not usually settled by their militaries. > > 2nd, ideally there will be 2 states, but its not necessary. Peace is prioritized over statehood for the Palestinians. > > 3rd, I acknowledge that there is probably little we can do to influence outside parties who have a stake in prolonging the combat for their own nefarious purposes. Even if both sides totally agree to act like civilized people, there will be others who will try to influence things for their own benefits by causing strife. I won’t totally ignore them, but I won’t totally just throw my hands up in defeat and say that anyone who wants to mess with the plan will be successful. > > 4th, this is from the perspective of what Israel can and should do. Saying “Well why don’t you tell the Palestinians to do such and such…” is not an appropriate response because if you want to do that, why don’t I just say all sides should lay down their arms and get to fucking each other to create a mix race of Israeli Palestinians and sing songs around a campfire? > > Israel needs to take a long-term look at how things will shape in the next few decades. Killing militants, even if righteously, will breed more militants, and I will bet anything that there will not be more Israeli’s than the billion or so Muslims they anger with every attack (and every false report by biased authorities in those Muslim countries). > > Israel has the power to absorb attacks and ignore others and engage only with the proper legitimately peaceful members of Fatah. Now Fatah has been greatly weakened because they are corrupt, can provide little assurances for their people, and offer no satisfying bloodlust responses whenever Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians. So the first thing they need to do is totally isolate Hamas by dealing only with Fatah. Who gives a shit if they are corrupt, they are not the ones launching rockets. Abbas or whoever is nominally in charge of Fatah should be brought in to divide the Palestinian leadership between the two. Give Abbas what he asks for to stop the Israeli offensive, show the people that Fatah can keep its promises of peace. Totally isolate Hamas by publicly acquiescing with Fatah’s calls for an end to hostilities. > > Next, remove all the settlers from the West Bank. No matter what you think about it, it will forever remain a point of contention. A fully realized Palestinian state may not be done with Israel gobbling up pieces of the West Bank and unilaterally annexing land. They’ll have to do what they did in Gaza and move their people out to show the Palestinians they are serious. > > So now Israel has given them some land and taken steps to legitimize Fatah over Hamas. Now comes the tricky part: winning hearts and minds. This will be the longest part of the operation, it will not come this decade or next. Too many people grew up seeing Israel, rightly or wrongly, as the aggressors. Like it or not, when one side is overwhelmingly more powerful than the other, than that side is going to get more scrutiny. Its not fair, but get over the notions of fairness. The goal is peace, don’t forget that. To that end, Israel must never, ever get sidetracked by extremists trying to derail the peace process. It doesn’t matter if Hamas and suicide bombers launch a hundred attacks, they must never say to Fatah “You can’t control your own people, therefore we won’t deal with you”. They must never blame Fatah for any attacks. They must never retaliate against Fatah for what Hamas does and pull out of negotiations or even some pointless joint project building a Walmart or something. Always isolate Hamas and terrorist by blaming them for everything, even if they think some Fatah elements might be helping or encouraging it. > > Israel needs to do that to establish a clear peaceful governmental body on the Palestinian side in contrast to Hamas. Decades of war, blockades, and weak leadership has rendered those who want peace to be almost powerless. The plan is to give them that power back by giving them legitimacy. A gangster passing out money in the streets will win more converts than an honest politician who can vote to open up the treasury for the poor. Fatah has no power to stop Hamas, nor to arrest them, nor to launch some kind of large scale operation against them. And if you ask Palestinians _while they are getting bombed_ by Israel who they favor, they’re going to say kill the Jews and rally behind Hamas. So knowing that they need to give power to Fatah, Israel needs to not react by punishing Fatah even by proxy. Publicly request Fatah to go after Hamas after every attack, never attack Hamas directly without public support from Fatah. Give every credit to Fatah even for a little bit of respite from violence. Do that for years, decades, to establish a clear line between terrorists and a peaceful if corrupt government. > > Now obviously we’ll get infiltrators and sympathizers in Fatah, that’s no question. But look at how the US is dealing with Pakistan. Don’t you think most people know Pakistan is really not our friend? That they like to play us off against the Taliban next door and in their country so we’re not fully supporting India? We use them, they use us, we both know it. The worst thing would be if the US says they don’t trust Pakistan because some people were harboring Osama and declare their entire government terrorist and start bombing them. To me, that’s like what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So no retaliation, even if its obviously through Fatah’s maliciousness or negligence. Someday, maybe a better, less corrupt, and more peaceful party will rise up in Palestine and Israel can deal with them, but its never going to happen if Israel continues to do what its currently doing. > > The point of helping Palestine establish a different government from Hamas is to create a party that’s, on the surface, dedicated to peace, and to buy time. Like I said, people are too used to Israel being the aggressors. Unfortunately, I don’t see hearts and minds changing in this generation who remember fleeing from Palestine or remember Israel shelling homes and schools. This generation of kids growing up in this violence must be allowed to grow old and die and/or be replaced before true peace can last, so Israel must keep this plan up for, oh, around 50 years at least. Imagine the cries of Hamas and its ilk being continuously dwarfed by kids who grow up in 20, 30, 40, 50 years who’ve never seen Israel react except with kindness, never seen them bomb a school or a hospital, never seen them bulldoze their friends houses. That is a powerful group that will shape Palestine for peace and not call for Israel’s genocide at every turn. > > At the same time, Israel must acknowledge the dilapidated conditions in Palestine by helping their government provide services to people. I’m a full believer that happy, economically satisfied people don’t rise up in unison to kill themselves through suicide bombs. Yes it happens, but not in any significant numbers. We have millions of Muslims in the US. There’s less than a handful that ever decided to leave all this middle class dream behind to blow someone or themselves up. So to that end, Israel should continue to build settlements in the West Bank, but do it for Palestinians under cooperation from Fatah. Build schools, malls, parks, factories, hospitals, etc. for them. Yes, some will be misused, but given enough time and enough places, ordinary Palestinians will see its to their favor to reduce the virulent hate speech that takes them away from their pizza parlors and movie theaters. > > Lastly, Israel needs to give Palestinians some powerful symbols of progress. Much of progress is little known, doesn’t get a lot of press, or is too complicate for people to rally around. Sometimes symbols, even pointless, will do a lot to soothe hurts. Allow a limited number of Palestinians to return. Make them full citizens of Israel. Give them land, build them homes, offer them jobs in Israel. Protect them as they will be targets, keep them safe and hold them up to be a symbol of unity. Delay this step long enough and you’ll only have a bunch of 80 and 90 year olds who fit some arbitrary criteria Israel and use to lower the number of people given this right. Also, stop calling yourself a Jewish state. Its enough that Israel is a state that is legitimate and survives, no need to keep poking the bear in the eye by reminding them of religious differences. Stop insisting people acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state. Maybe crack down on some of your own homegrown extremists too like those in the Orthodox. And give up some symbolic buildings that are just buildings like the Dome of the Rock or Temple Mount. Acknowledge, in a few decades once there is more peace, that Jerusalem is a special city that doesn’t deserve to be only owned by Jews but allow a shared coalition of religions, possibly overseen by the UN, to run the place, with maybe some enclaves for Jews, Muslims, and Christians. > > These are just some of the things Israel can and should do I guess it is not widely known in the West that the Dome of the Rock is, in point of fact, controlled by an Islamic foundation run out of Jordan. 😉 As for the rest - it would appear that, rather than “doing nothing”, your plan is to “do nothing of a military nature, while addressing grievances”. I’m in partial argeement. Points I agree on: supporting the PA, more infrastructure aid to them, getting rid of settlements in the WB (but not Jerusalem - a disunited city makes no sense). Points I disagree with: handing over Jerusalem to the UN, granting a Right of Return, claiming Israel is not an ethno-nationalist state (why not change the name of “Turkey” while we are at it? Isn’t it insulting to all non-Turks living there? Then we can deal with such abominations as “France” and “Germany”). Points Israel already does, but is apparently not known to do or get any credit for doing: crack down on home-grown extremists, hand over Dome of the Rock to Muslims. The problem with your plan, excellent though it may be in other respects, it will do nothing whatsoever to stem attacks from Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/162 "2014-08-01T21:01:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I guess it is not widely known in the West that the Dome of the Rock is, in point of fact, controlled by an Islamic foundation run out of Jordan. 😉 > > As for the rest - it would appear that, rather than “doing nothing”, your plan is to “do nothing of a military nature, while addressing grievances”. I’m in partial argeement. > > Points I agree on: supporting the PA, more infrastructure aid to them, getting rid of settlements in the WB (but not Jerusalem - a disunited city makes no sense). > > Points I disagree with: handing over Jerusalem to the UN, granting a Right of Return, claiming Israel is not an ethno-nationalist state (why not change the name of “Turkey” while we are at it? Isn’t it insulting to all non-Turks living there? Then we can deal with such abominations as “France” and “Germany”). > > Points Israel already does, but is apparently not known to do or get any credit for doing: crack down on home-grown extremists, hand over Dome of the Rock to Muslims. > > The problem with your plan, excellent though it may be in other respects, it will do nothing whatsoever to stem attacks from Hamas. As I understand it, Israel controls partially the ground underneath the Dome/Temple and Palestinians control what’s on top. If I’m wrong then I apologize, but the intention is to give them full ownership of it. On Jerusalem, I would say a disunited city isn’t a big deal. What’s a city except a bunch of buildings together? Berlin was split. Cities in warzones are often controlled by the outside by run by people familiar with it on the inside. Owing to the nature of the conflict, I see Jerusalem as a special case warranting special status. On the ethno-centrism, this isn’t just about a name like Turkey, but about the demands that Israel places on others on how to recognize it. Suppose the Palestinians said they’d recognize Israel as a state with a right to exist, but they just won’t ever call it a Jewish state, I would think its entirely in Israel’s favor to accept that. Also, demanding that the state be recognized as such is meaningless in that outside states have little to no power to change it. If every country in the world says Israel is just a state but not a Jewish one, does that turn everyone within it into Hindus? Its a meaningless demand that prevents some reconciliation. Recognizing it as Jewish or not does nothing for Israel so they should drop the demand I disagree with your claim that we do nothing military with Hamas. I see direct confrontation as a continuation of the status quo, and find it useless to Israel’s goals of peace and recognition. My plan deals with Hamas militarily by shoring up the strength of Fatah who allows them to deal with Hamas. Just like how the US supplies troops and weapons and capital to countries to fight their battles for them without boots on the ground, Israel can do that for Fatah against Hamas. Its still a military operation, but they need to recognize that the weapons are not bombs and tanks, but strategic know-how, legitimacy, and indirect support. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/163 "2014-08-01T21:22:01Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > As I understand it, Israel controls partially the ground underneath the Dome/Temple and Palestinians control what’s on top. If I’m wrong then I apologize, but the intention is to give them full ownership of it. Nope. The waqf controls it totally, including what is underneath. This has lead to a dispute with Israeli archaeologists, when the waqf completed major construction work there without any scientific survey. > **[What Is Beneath the Temple Mount?](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-is-beneath-the-temple-mount-920764/?page=2)** > > As Israeli archaeologists recover artifacts from the religious site, ancient history inflames modern-day political tensions > [@](#): > > On Jerusalem, I would say a disunited city isn’t a big deal. What’s a city except a bunch of buildings together? Berlin was split. Cities in warzones are often controlled by the outside by run by people familiar with it on the inside. Owing to the nature of the conflict, I see Jerusalem as a special case warranting special status. The Berlin Wall wasn’t a big deal? I suspect few Germans would agree. The city is better off united, than disunited. It was disunited before - pre-1967 - and it sucked, what with the occasional sniper fire across the “border” inside the city and all. > [@](#): > > On the ethno-centrism, this isn’t just about a name like Turkey, but about the demands that Israel places on others on how to recognize it. Suppose the Palestinians said they’d recognize Israel as a state with a right to exist, but they just won’t ever call it a Jewish state, I would think its entirely in Israel’s favor to accept that. This is an issue of mainly symbolic importance. What is significant about the “Jewish State” demand is that it is a demand that the Palestinians recognize the right of the Jewish people to exist, and to exist there. Otherwise, the “recognition” really amounts to recognizing the _name_ of the country, perhaps on the understanding that the name shall remain, but not the current set of inhabitants. > [@](#): > > Also, demanding that the state be recognized as such is meaningless in that outside states have little to no power to change it. If every country in the world says Israel is just a state but not a Jewish one, does that turn everyone within it into Hindus? Its a meaningless demand that prevents some reconciliation. Recognizing it as Jewish or not does nothing for Israel so they should drop the demand Again, it is important for the reasons stated above. Why is it that symbolic gestures to provide comfort to Palestinians are “important”, while those intended to provide comfort to Israelis are “meaningless”? > [@](#): > > I disagree with your claim that we do nothing military with Hamas. I see direct confrontation as a continuation of the status quo, and find it useless to Israel’s goals of peace and recognition. My plan deals with Hamas militarily by shoring up the strength of Fatah who allows them to deal with Hamas. Just like how the US supplies troops and weapons and capital to countries to fight their battles for them without boots on the ground, Israel can do that for Fatah against Hamas. Its still a military operation, but they need to recognize that the weapons are not bombs and tanks, but strategic know-how, legitimacy, and indirect support. I agreed with your plan of supporting the PA. I disagree that, even with such support, the PA is likely in anything like the medium or long term to be able to do anything about Hamas in Gaza. How is such a thing to be achieved? Even if it is, it would be by bloody civil war, which is likely to be far, far worse in terms of civilian casualties that what we are seeing now. Not sure that would be an improvement. Or that the PA would win. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/164 "2014-08-01T21:56:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nope. The waqf controls it totally, including what is underneath. This has lead to a dispute with Israeli archaeologists, when the waqf completed major construction work there without any scientific survey. My mistake then > [@Malthus](#): > > The Berlin Wall wasn’t a big deal? I suspect few Germans would agree. Berlin was a special case where the two sides were engaged in a cold war. Jerusalem would not be, there would be no barriers preventing one side crossing into the next, it would be a free city that does not restrict travel. This would be done in a few decades when relations have thawed a little so less security will be needed. The only thing that would stand out is that each side gets to run their parcel by their rules. I do not think that walls and guard towers will spring up, I think it would be a shared city > [@Malthus](#): > > This is an issue of mainly symbolic importance. What is significant about the “Jewish State” demand is that it is a demand that the Palestinians recognize the right of the Jewish people to exist, and to exist there. What is the right of existence independent of its people? You cannot claim that the state with its people have the right to exist and ALSO the state’s symbol has a right separate from that. Once the people are there and is recognized, the symbolism is meaningless ESPECIALLY if its a sticking point of contention Again I ask, if the state of Israel and its people are recognized, but the descriptive of “Jewish State” is not, then what are they really losing by accepting that? > [@Malthus](#): > > Otherwise, the “recognition” really amounts to recognizing the _name_ of the country, perhaps on the understanding that the name shall remain, but not the current set of inhabitants. I believe you are making the mistake a lot of Israelis are making, which is conflating the two issues of state descriptor and actual people into one issue. I think the reason why its a sticking point is that Israelis are afraid that somehow, if someone doesn’t recognize them as Jewish, then it would mean some subtle hand is available by Israel’s enemies to displace them and be justified in doing so. What they miss by latching onto that idea is that by not having recognition in the first place, the hand is overt and their enemies completely willing to try and displace them openly. Nothing will change whether Israel is recognized as Jewish or not. Its people are untouchable irrespective of that recognition. The only thing it seems to matter is as part of the conditions of negotiation. Give it up and move forward > [@Malthus](#): > > Again, it is important for the reasons stated above. Why is it that symbolic gestures to provide comfort to Palestinians are “important”, while those intended to provide comfort to Israelis are “meaningless”? Here you are addressing something I’ve already discussed, which is that my answers are strictly from what the perspective of the Israeli’s. I am not talking about what Palestinians or other countries should do. I’m talking about what Israel should do to maximize its chances for peace. Of course the first thing I would advise Palestine and other countries should do is to recognize Israel, its a petty thing to hold up negotiations over, but then again that is not the point of the topic. If you want to hear what Israel should do, its to give up silly symbols for tangible peace > [@Malthus](#): > > I agreed with your plan of supporting the PA. I disagree that, even with such support, the PA is likely in anything like the medium or long term to be able to do anything about Hamas in Gaza. How is such a thing to be achieved? > > Even if it is, it would be by bloody civil war, which is likely to be far, far worse in terms of civilian casualties that what we are seeing now. Not sure that would be an improvement. Or that the PA would win. Such a thing is to be achieved slowly through the long term. Most of the people alive now will not see to its resolution. I’ve described the process and how I expect change to occur already, but the gist of it is that more legitimacy for Fatah or a peaceful party within Palestine will marginalize Hamas and other terrorists, especially if the people see actual peace progress being made. Yes there will probably be a civil war, I didn’t mention that but I expect it. At some point, Fatah will grow strong enough to deal with Hamas with the support of the people and Hamas will fight back. When that happens, a lot of people will die. But you ask how that is an improvement? Here it is: it won’t be Israel being blamed for the violence, it will be Hamas. And the hearts and minds that you said couldn’t be won over because world support is overrated? What if that were on Israel’s side? Would you still brush it off? And of course the PA would win. They would be heavily supported by Israel and the US and most of the West, overtly and covertly. The PA will not hurt for supplies and with fellow Palestinians doing the fighting, they can afford to be more extreme to deal with the terrorists ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/165 "2014-08-01T22:08:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And, in related news, The Times of Israel published a piece the other day, explaining “[When Genocide Is Permissible.](http://www.vox.com/2014/8/1/5959577/the-times-of-israel-published-an-article-on-when-genocide-is)” Errr… first of all you’ll notice they received so many negative comments they removed that blog post. Beyond that I don’t think you demonstrated anything other than Israel has a free press and like all nations, some Israelis are bigots. Had this been a statement put forth by a high level MK you might have a point, but you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/166 "2014-08-01T22:13:05Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > My mistake then No prob. It’s an obscure point, really. > [@](#): > > Berlin was a special case where the two sides were engaged in a cold war. Jerusalem would not be, there would be no barriers preventing one side crossing into the next, it would be a free city that does not restrict travel. This would be done in a few decades when relations have thawed a little so less security will be needed. The only thing that would stand out is that each side gets to run their parcel by their rules. I do not think that walls and guard towers will spring up, I think it would be a shared city This wasn’t the case when the city _was_ divided. The notion that relations will ever thaw to the point that guarderd borders are unnecessary strikes me as a trifle utopian. > [@](#): > > What is the right of existence independent of its people? You cannot claim that the state with its people have the right to exist and ALSO the state’s symbol has a right separate from that. Once the people are there and is recognized, the symbolism is meaningless ESPECIALLY if its a sticking point of contention > > Again I ask, if the state of Israel and its people are recognized, but the descriptive of “Jewish State” is not, then what are they really losing by accepting that? The problem lies with your use of the word “if”. Yes, IF the state of Israel and its people are recognized, there would be no need for the “Jewish state” business. The “Jewish state” business is, perforce, intended to demonstrate “…its people” - specifically, its Jewish people - are “recognized”. > [@](#): > > I believe you are making the mistake a lot of Israelis are making, which is conflating the two issues of state descriptor and actual people into one issue. I think the reason why its a sticking point is that Israelis are afraid that somehow, if someone doesn’t recognize them as Jewish, then it would mean some subtle hand is available by Israel’s enemies to displace them and be justified in doing so. What they miss by latching onto that idea is that by not having recognition in the first place, the hand is overt and their enemies completely willing to try and displace them openly. I don’t get it. What the Jewish people of Israel are asking is that their erstwhile enemies, in order to be accepted as friends, agree to “recognize” them AS A PEOPLE, in a situation in which at least SOME of their enemies quite openly SAY that their position is that Jews should be “genocided” (the Hamas Charter is explicit in this). If they fail to obtain such “recignition”, then it is reasonable, on their part, to assume that their enemies have not changed their position, and do not, in fact, want to be friends. Say what you will, it strikes me at least that this is not “meaningless” or “silly”. > [@](#): > > Nothing will change whether Israel is recognized as Jewish or not. Its people are untouchable irrespective of that recognition. The only thing it seems to matter is as part of the conditions of negotiation. Give it up and move forward Again, I disagree. > [@](#): > > Here you are addressing something I’ve already discussed, which is that my answers are strictly from what the perspective of the Israeli’s. I am not talking about what Palestinians or other countries should do. I’m talking about what Israel should do to maximize its chances for peace. Of course the first thing I would advise Palestine and other countries should do is to recognize Israel, its a petty thing to hold up negotiations over, but then again that is not the point of the topic. If you want to hear what Israel should do, its to give up silly symbols for tangible peace Yet one of the things you would urge the Israelis to do, is give to Palestinians “silly symbols” that they want. > [@](#): > > Such a thing is to be achieved slowly through the long term. Most of the people alive now will not see to its resolution. I’ve described the process and how I expect change to occur already, but the gist of it is that more legitimacy for Fatah or a peaceful party within Palestine will marginalize Hamas and other terrorists, especially if the people see actual peace progress being made. Yes there will probably be a civil war, I didn’t mention that but I expect it. At some point, Fatah will grow strong enough to deal with Hamas with the support of the people and Hamas will fight back. When that happens, a lot of people will die. But you ask how that is an improvement? Here it is: it won’t be Israel being blamed for the violence, it will be Hamas. And the hearts and minds that you said couldn’t be won over because world support is overrated? What if that were on Israel’s side? Would you still brush it off? > > And of course the PA would win. They would be heavily supported by Israel and the US and most of the West, overtly and covertly. The PA will not hurt for supplies and with fellow Palestinians doing the fighting, they can afford to be more extreme to deal with the terrorists I think this is utopian thinking. Hamas will paint Fatah as collaborators, with some justification. If a massacre breaks out and Israel is supporting the side doing the massacring, Israel will be blamed for the massacre, and incur all of the hatred that results. Remember what happened when Israel supported Christians in Lebanon? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/167 "2014-08-04T21:05:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This wasn’t the case when the city _was_ divided. The notion that relations will ever thaw to the point that guarderd borders are unnecessary strikes me as a trifle utopian. I will admit that parts of my plan is predicated on people being less of an asshole to each other. The reason why this plan is different is that it is long term, going on 50+ years, enough for a great many assholes to die off first > [@Malthus](#): > > The problem lies with your use of the word “if”. Yes, IF the state of Israel and its people are recognized, there would be no need for the “Jewish state” business. The “Jewish state” business is, perforce, intended to demonstrate “…its people” - specifically, its Jewish people - are “recognized”. > > I don’t get it. What the Jewish people of Israel are asking is that their erstwhile enemies, in order to be accepted as friends, agree to “recognize” them AS A PEOPLE, in a situation in which at least SOME of their enemies quite openly SAY that their position is that Jews should be “genocided” (the Hamas Charter is explicit in this). If they fail to obtain such “recignition”, then it is reasonable, on their part, to assume that their enemies have not changed their position, and do not, in fact, want to be friends. > > Say what you will, it strikes me at least that this is not “meaningless” or “silly”. Again, I think its an issue only because Israeli’s make it an issue. If the Israel is recognized, it doesn’t need the “Jewish” moniker. If its not recognized, then it doesn’t matter how they describe themselves. My advice to Israel would be to recognize that fact and move on. Nobody’s going to recognize Israel as Jewish before it is recognized as a state so therefore once you have Israel, you’ll have the Jewish state but not the other way around. It strikes me as some overly circular logic that some Israeli’s think that if only they can trick other countries into calling them a Jewish state, then “Ah ha! No takebacks!” and they become a recognized state. Its a silly game that they need to stop playing > [@Malthus](#): > > Yet one of the things you would urge the Israelis to do, is give to Palestinians “silly symbols” that they want. Yes, because this topic is framed as advice I’d give to Israel, not to the Palestinians > [@Malthus](#): > > I think this is utopian thinking. Hamas will paint Fatah as collaborators, with some justification. If a massacre breaks out and Israel is supporting the side doing the massacring, Israel will be blamed for the massacre, and incur all of the hatred that results. Remember what happened when Israel supported Christians in Lebanon? I cannot say that nothing unforeseen will happen, only that with enough money and support, the damage can be mitigated. Hell, I am not above doing dirty deeds to get results. If Hamas tries to paint Fatah as collaborators, then fake videos or attacks by Hamas to shift the blame to the other side. Eventually with support and manpower, Fatah will win out. Might take 50 years, but it’ll happen eventually ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/168 "2014-08-05T04:04:00Z")
This is an excellent post that lays out exactly what I would like to see happen… > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I will tell you what I’m advocating with the caveat that I know there is information I don’t have, tactics I’m not aware of, and things just may not turn out wonderfully for Israel like I’ve predicted, but there is a chance that things will and this represents my best guess at how things will be. And whatever short-term damage Israel takes is all for the sake of long-term stability. Ok? We’re clear on that? Alright. > > First thing’s first, I’m against the status quo. Its been proven not to have worked. The goal is total peace, maybe not like the friendship between US and Canada, then more like China and Japan where they freely acknowledge that they don’t especially like each other and extremists will whip up fury against the other for their own benefits, but both governments recognize the other and disputes are not usually settled by their militaries. > > 2nd, ideally there will be 2 states, but its not necessary. Peace is prioritized over statehood for the Palestinians. > > 3rd, I acknowledge that there is probably little we can do to influence outside parties who have a stake in prolonging the combat for their own nefarious purposes. Even if both sides totally agree to act like civilized people, there will be others who will try to influence things for their own benefits by causing strife. I won’t totally ignore them, but I won’t totally just throw my hands up in defeat and say that anyone who wants to mess with the plan will be successful. > > 4th, this is from the perspective of what Israel can and should do. Saying “Well why don’t you tell the Palestinians to do such and such…” is not an appropriate response because if you want to do that, why don’t I just say all sides should lay down their arms and get to fucking each other to create a mix race of Israeli Palestinians and sing songs around a campfire? > > Israel needs to take a long-term look at how things will shape in the next few decades. Killing militants, even if righteously, will breed more militants, and I will bet anything that there will not be more Israeli’s than the billion or so Muslims they anger with every attack (and every false report by biased authorities in those Muslim countries). > > Israel has the power to absorb attacks and ignore others and engage only with the proper legitimately peaceful members of Fatah. Now Fatah has been greatly weakened because they are corrupt, can provide little assurances for their people, and offer no satisfying bloodlust responses whenever Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians. So the first thing they need to do is totally isolate Hamas by dealing only with Fatah. Who gives a shit if they are corrupt, they are not the ones launching rockets. Abbas or whoever is nominally in charge of Fatah should be brought in to divide the Palestinian leadership between the two. Give Abbas what he asks for to stop the Israeli offensive, show the people that Fatah can keep its promises of peace. Totally isolate Hamas by publicly acquiescing with Fatah’s calls for an end to hostilities. > > Next, remove all the settlers from the West Bank. No matter what you think about it, it will forever remain a point of contention. A fully realized Palestinian state may not be done with Israel gobbling up pieces of the West Bank and unilaterally annexing land. They’ll have to do what they did in Gaza and move their people out to show the Palestinians they are serious. > > So now Israel has given them some land and taken steps to legitimize Fatah over Hamas. Now comes the tricky part: winning hearts and minds. This will be the longest part of the operation, it will not come this decade or next. Too many people grew up seeing Israel, rightly or wrongly, as the aggressors. Like it or not, when one side is overwhelmingly more powerful than the other, than that side is going to get more scrutiny. Its not fair, but get over the notions of fairness. The goal is peace, don’t forget that. To that end, Israel must never, ever get sidetracked by extremists trying to derail the peace process. It doesn’t matter if Hamas and suicide bombers launch a hundred attacks, they must never say to Fatah “You can’t control your own people, therefore we won’t deal with you”. They must never blame Fatah for any attacks. They must never retaliate against Fatah for what Hamas does and pull out of negotiations or even some pointless joint project building a Walmart or something. Always isolate Hamas and terrorist by blaming them for everything, even if they think some Fatah elements might be helping or encouraging it. > > Israel needs to do that to establish a clear peaceful governmental body on the Palestinian side in contrast to Hamas. Decades of war, blockades, and weak leadership has rendered those who want peace to be almost powerless. The plan is to give them that power back by giving them legitimacy. A gangster passing out money in the streets will win more converts than an honest politician who can vote to open up the treasury for the poor. Fatah has no power to stop Hamas, nor to arrest them, nor to launch some kind of large scale operation against them. And if you ask Palestinians _while they are getting bombed_ by Israel who they favor, they’re going to say kill the Jews and rally behind Hamas. So knowing that they need to give power to Fatah, Israel needs to not react by punishing Fatah even by proxy. Publicly request Fatah to go after Hamas after every attack, never attack Hamas directly without public support from Fatah. Give every credit to Fatah even for a little bit of respite from violence. Do that for years, decades, to establish a clear line between terrorists and a peaceful if corrupt government. > > Now obviously we’ll get infiltrators and sympathizers in Fatah, that’s no question. But look at how the US is dealing with Pakistan. Don’t you think most people know Pakistan is really not our friend? That they like to play us off against the Taliban next door and in their country so we’re not fully supporting India? We use them, they use us, we both know it. The worst thing would be if the US says they don’t trust Pakistan because some people were harboring Osama and declare their entire government terrorist and start bombing them. To me, that’s like what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So no retaliation, even if its obviously through Fatah’s maliciousness or negligence. Someday, maybe a better, less corrupt, and more peaceful party will rise up in Palestine and Israel can deal with them, but its never going to happen if Israel continues to do what its currently doing. > > The point of helping Palestine establish a different government from Hamas is to create a party that’s, on the surface, dedicated to peace, and to buy time. Like I said, people are too used to Israel being the aggressors. Unfortunately, I don’t see hearts and minds changing in this generation who remember fleeing from Palestine or remember Israel shelling homes and schools. This generation of kids growing up in this violence must be allowed to grow old and die and/or be replaced before true peace can last, so Israel must keep this plan up for, oh, around 50 years at least. Imagine the cries of Hamas and its ilk being continuously dwarfed by kids who grow up in 20, 30, 40, 50 years who’ve never seen Israel react except with kindness, never seen them bomb a school or a hospital, never seen them bulldoze their friends houses. That is a powerful group that will shape Palestine for peace and not call for Israel’s genocide at every turn. > > At the same time, Israel must acknowledge the dilapidated conditions in Palestine by helping their government provide services to people. I’m a full believer that happy, economically satisfied people don’t rise up in unison to kill themselves through suicide bombs. Yes it happens, but not in any significant numbers. We have millions of Muslims in the US. There’s less than a handful that ever decided to leave all this middle class dream behind to blow someone or themselves up. So to that end, Israel should continue to build settlements in the West Bank, but do it for Palestinians under cooperation from Fatah. Build schools, malls, parks, factories, hospitals, etc. for them. Yes, some will be misused, but given enough time and enough places, ordinary Palestinians will see its to their favor to reduce the virulent hate speech that takes them away from their pizza parlors and movie theaters. > > Lastly, Israel needs to give Palestinians some powerful symbols of progress. Much of progress is little known, doesn’t get a lot of press, or is too complicate for people to rally around. Sometimes symbols, even pointless, will do a lot to soothe hurts. Allow a limited number of Palestinians to return. Make them full citizens of Israel. Give them land, build them homes, offer them jobs in Israel. Protect them as they will be targets, keep them safe and hold them up to be a symbol of unity. Delay this step long enough and you’ll only have a bunch of 80 and 90 year olds who fit some arbitrary criteria Israel and use to lower the number of people given this right. Also, stop calling yourself a Jewish state. Its enough that Israel is a state that is legitimate and survives, no need to keep poking the bear in the eye by reminding them of religious differences. Stop insisting people acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state. Maybe crack down on some of your own homegrown extremists too like those in the Orthodox. And give up some symbolic buildings that are just buildings like the Dome of the Rock or Temple Mount. Acknowledge, in a few decades once there is more peace, that Jerusalem is a special city that doesn’t deserve to be only owned by Jews but allow a shared coalition of religions, possibly overseen by the UN, to run the place, with maybe some enclaves for Jews, Muslims, and Christians. > > These are just some of the things Israel can and should do ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/169 "2014-08-05T13:16:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I will admit that parts of my plan is predicated on people being less of an asshole to each other. The reason why this plan is different is that it is long term, going on 50+ years, enough for a great many assholes to die off first I’m not a big fan of plans that essentially rely on a change of heart on a massive scale in order to work. > [@](#): > > Again, I think its an issue only because Israeli’s make it an issue. If the Israel is recognized, it doesn’t need the “Jewish” moniker. If its not recognized, then it doesn’t matter how they describe themselves. My advice to Israel would be to recognize that fact and move on. Nobody’s going to recognize Israel as Jewish before it is recognized as a state so therefore once you have Israel, you’ll have the Jewish state but not the other way around. > > It strikes me as some overly circular logic that some Israeli’s think that if only they can trick other countries into calling them a Jewish state, then “Ah ha! No takebacks!” and they become a recognized state. Its a silly game that they need to stop playing I don’t believe that is the Israeli thinking on the matter. More that they wish an honest declaration of intentions - an open acknoledgement, not hedged, of the most basic issue in contention - their right to exist. Seems to me that if the other guy will not openly and honestly declare that you have that most basic of rights - that of existence - there isn’t really any “peace”. Just a temporary halt to hostilities. I don’t think this is a “game” at all. > [@](#): > > Yes, because this topic is framed as advice I’d give to Israel, not to the Palestinians The advice I’d give to both sides would be to respect each other, including respecting each other’s symbols. No lasting peace can come without _mutual_ respect. > [@](#): > > I cannot say that nothing unforeseen will happen, only that with enough money and support, the damage can be mitigated. Hell, I am not above doing dirty deeds to get results. If Hamas tries to paint Fatah as collaborators, then fake videos or attacks by Hamas to shift the blame to the other side. Eventually with support and manpower, Fatah will win out. Might take 50 years, but it’ll happen eventually I wish I shared that faith. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/170 "2014-08-05T14:31:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, no - what they have announced they want to do from the outset, have attempted to do in the past, have continued to do right up to the present, and have announced that they will continue to do in the future. And it’s still a long-term collective punishment of the people of Gaza for the (largely ineffective) stance of Hamas. (IIRC, Israel keeps claiming that Hamas doesn’t really represent the people of Gaza, or has that changed?) > [@](#): > > And it is not a siege. It’s a blockade - there’s a difference. Could you explain the difference, beyond the size of the entity being besieged/blockaded? > [@](#): > > Get back to us when genocide is the official position of the Israeli government as it is the official position of Hamas, won’t you? Right it seems to be limited to a retracted editorial in a fringe digital-only newspaper. That was a cheap shot, and I shouldn’t have gone there. My apologies. > [@](#): > > AFAICT, that is - I wasn’t able to read the whole editorial, so for all I know the headline of the article to which you linked might be exaggerating. The headline was in the screen shot of the original piece. So if it was an exaggeration, it was the Times of Israel’s exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/171 "2014-08-05T14:47:35Z")
Dream all you want, but don’t hold your breath. There’s no indication that the Palestinians will ever accept a peaceful coexistence with Israel. They teach their kids from the cradle that all blame lies with Israel, and have consistently refused to agree to any plan that doesn’t give them 100% of what they want. I don’t see any sign that the situation will be resolved in my lifetime, and would not be at all surprised if it continues for centuries. Israel has at times offered reasonable proposals. Palestine has rejected them all and never proffered anything reasonable. If all the Palestinians were disarmed there might a chance for a resolution of the issue. If all the Israelis were disarmed then Israel would be obliterated. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/172 "2014-08-05T14:57:32Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > . . . Could you explain the difference, beyond the size of the entity being besieged/blockaded? . . . In a siege, food and water gets cut off. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/173 "2014-08-05T20:04:55Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > ::: snip :::: > If all the Palestinians were disarmed there might a chance for a resolution of the issue. If all the Israelis were disarmed then Israel would be obliterated. This ↑↑↑ What Westerners can not really understand that peace between many groups, tribes, countries & nations of the Mid East are so ingrained and totally taught that the other guy is & always will be the bad guy. That can not be changed in less than a 1000 years even if the majority want it to change. It ain’t gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/174 "2014-08-05T20:34:52Z")
An op-ed from LA Times, 1968. As true then as it is today: [http://www.factsandlogic.org/outstanding\_hoffer.html](http://www.factsandlogic.org/outstanding_hoffer.html) The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people, and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations — when they are defeated — survive and recover, but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June he would have wiped Israel off the map and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Negroes are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we did in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway. The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to American and the West in general. I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/175 "2014-08-05T20:43:56Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > If all the Palestinians were disarmed there might a chance for a resolution of the issue. If all the Israelis were disarmed then Israel would be obliterated. > [@GusNSpot](#): > > This ↑↑↑ > > What Westerners can not really understand that peace between many groups, tribes, countries & nations of the Mid East are so ingrained and totally taught that the other guy is & always will be the bad guy. That can not be changed in less than a 1000 years even if the majority want it to change. This argument always misses the part about why the Palestinians would do that, and its interesting because it assumes the status quo. The only reason why the Palestinians might want to kill the Israelis is because the Israelis are on land claimed by the Palestinians. Move the Jewish homeland to a plot of land in Idaho and the Palestinians won’t care if they are armed or not. In fact, before the creation of Israel, didn’t many Jews live peacefully under Arabic rule? Its not like the Arabs and Muslims see a Jew and they instinctively want to kill them like a cat and a mouse. Its all because of the dispute Israel has it easier now because they have the power. If Palestinians were disarmed, there will probably be more of a push into Gaza or the West Bank. Hell, many youths are armed only with stones to throw and they still get shot. Disarming the Palestinians will not bring peace. Only the settling of the land issue will bring peace ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/176 "2014-08-05T21:04:26Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > This argument always misses the part about why the Palestinians would do that, and its interesting because it assumes the status quo. The only reason why the Palestinians might want to kill the Israelis is because the Israelis are on land claimed by the Palestinians. Move the Jewish homeland to a plot of land in Idaho and the Palestinians won’t care if they are armed or not. In fact, before the creation of Israel, didn’t many Jews live peacefully under Arabic rule? Its not like the Arabs and Muslims see a Jew and they instinctively want to kill them like a cat and a mouse. Its all because of the dispute > > Israel has it easier now because they have the power. If Palestinians were disarmed, there will probably be more of a push into Gaza or the West Bank. Hell, many youths are armed only with stones to throw and they still get shot. Disarming the Palestinians will not bring peace. Only the settling of the land issue will bring peace What about the part where Palestinians exterminate the Jews, then exterminate the whole middle east, and then exterminate the world? Oh, let’s just give them another inch, they’ll be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/177 "2014-08-05T21:06:11Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > This argument always misses the part about why the Palestinians would do that, and its interesting because it assumes the status quo. The only reason why the Palestinians might want to kill the Israelis is because the Israelis are on land claimed by the Palestinians. Move the Jewish homeland to a plot of land in Idaho and the Palestinians won’t care if they are armed or not. In fact, before the creation of Israel, didn’t many Jews live peacefully under Arabic rule? Its not like the Arabs and Muslims see a Jew and they instinctively want to kill them like a cat and a mouse. Its all because of the dispute > > Israel has it easier now because they have the power. If Palestinians were disarmed, there will probably be more of a push into Gaza or the West Bank. Hell, many youths are armed only with stones to throw and they still get shot. Disarming the Palestinians will not bring peace. Only the settling of the land issue will bring peace Jews lived relatively peaceably - give or take a massacre or two - under Ottoman rule. There never was, for the last 500-plus years, “Arab Rule” in Israel (or indeed, anywhere else). See, this is the part so many who debate this issue do not get: Arab ethno-nationalism arose at about the same time as Jewish ethno-nationalism. The whole of the middle east was owned, “once upon a time”, by great multi-ethnic empires - first the Ottomans, then carved up by various European colonialists, and finally split up into today’s plethora of states. The existing Arab states are of more or less the same “vintage” as Israel. The “problem” here is not Arab, Muslim or Jew - it is ethno-nationalism. The notion that the problem is ‘the entire Middle East versus Israel’, and that it could be ‘resolved’ if only those nasty Israelis left, is cloud-cuckoo nonsense. The ‘problem’ afflicting Israel/Palestine is remarkably similar to the “problem” afflicting Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey and Syria (not to mention large parts of Europe, the Balkans, Ukraine, etc.): that various groups claim the same plots of land as their ethno-religious “lands”. The only difference is that the world pays considerably more attention to whatever happens in Israel, than it does in (say) what happens in Lebanon or Syria; and no-one seriously suggests that the Alawites be removed from Syria, or the Christians from Lebanon, in the name of creating a lasting peace. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/178 "2014-08-05T21:26:48Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > There are some threads in GD about the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas, but I wanted to gauge broader opinion. All said and done, who are you positively inclined towards, even if only marginally? Feel free to qualify your answer in the thread, but the poll options are Israel or Hamas. > I’m putting in a ‘Neither’ option, but I encourage you to avoid using it. Click it only if you absolutely feel the same way towards the two sides and would be happy for your answer to this poll be decided by coin toss. I’m surprised UN is not called in.If this was any other country in South America ,Europe or Central America it would be Afghanistan and Iraq thing. -Wipe out the army -Ban the use of army -life time army ban and border police -repair the damage -life time monitoring. Police training and country self governing. This is same old, same old ,thing over and over:eek::eek::eek::eek: Hamas fires rockets and they get lots of damage that stop for X number of time than start the same thing over again. Where is the US? The peace talks have never worked and in three years from now this same thing will be all over again. Why don’t the US and UN put stop to this fighting for good.If it was any other country in South America ,Europe or Central America would. Well they at it , built big wall like they did in east and west Germany wall.Have UN border inspectors for life time and ban on use of army.The country can do want ever it wants it just cannot have army. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/179 "2014-08-05T21:45:06Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What about the part where Palestinians exterminate the Jews, then exterminate the whole middle east, and then exterminate the world? Oh, let’s just give them another inch, they’ll be nice. I can’t tell if you’re joking > [@Malthus](#): > > Jews lived relatively peaceably - give or take a massacre or two - under Ottoman rule. There never was, for the last 500-plus years, “Arab Rule” in Israel (or indeed, anywhere else). The point is that Jews and other people are perfectly capable of living under the rule of someone else. There is no intrinsic hatred of Jews by Palestinians. Disarming one side or the other will not result in any violence if you remove the land squabbles, that was my point. That’s why I dispute the claim about peace being viable if only the Palestinians are disarmed. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139/180 "2014-08-05T21:51:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > This argument always misses the part about why the Palestinians would do that, and its interesting because it assumes the status quo. And assumes it with good reason – it’s not going to change. > [@](#): > > The only reason why the Palestinians might want to kill the Israelis is because the Israelis are on land claimed by the Palestinians. Move the Jewish homeland to a plot of land in Idaho and the Palestinians won’t care if they are armed or not. Nice dream. Israel isn’t going to relocate overseas. The Palestinians were supposed to get their own land per the 1948 mandate, but other Arab nations mucked that up. If the Palestinians had accepted reality and directed their energy into securing their own land somewhere other than Israel, they would probably be in pretty good shape by now. But it seems it’s more important to them to hate Israel than to do things for their own benefit. As a result, their situation gets worse over time. So long as they hold on to the notion of eliminating Israel – which is likely to be indefinitely – they will suffer. > [@](#): > > Disarming the Palestinians will not bring peace. Only the settling of the land issue will bring peace That’s probably true. And the land issue will only be settle if the Palestinians let go of their claims to Israel. Don’t count on it happening, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-or-hamas-who-do-you-think-is-in-the-right/694139.md?page=10)