It’s not necessarily going to happen if Palestine is disarmed, but it’s definitely not going to happen if they’re not disarmed.
Indian news channel gets video of Hamas setting up a rocket site.
What makes you think I’m joking?
So exterminate the Jews, give it all to the Palestinians and it will all be better. I can’t tell if you’re joking.
Are Arabs/Palestinians perfectly capable of living under the rule of Jews?
So the solution to current problems is - to re-impose the old style colonial empires? Or resurrect the Ottoman Empire?
Sadly, for better or worse, those days are dead as the dodo.
I dunno about that. By the average Arab- probably they were totally indifferent to Jews, prior to the 20th century - as long as they remained a harmless and second-class minority. Islamic doctrine prohibits massacre of the “people of the Book” - namely, Jews and Christians - as long as they accept Muslim rule, a few restrictions on what they can do, etc.
But that was then, when Jews appeared to pose no threat. This is now, after a century or so of conflict, not to mention exposure to Western-style anti-semitism, which has taken solid root in the Arab world. For an example of this, once again one can look to the Hamas Charter, which cites various (no doubt taken out of context) Islamic Hadaths in addition to the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” to justify an essentially genocidal position. You can’t just turn back the clock on that.
The problem is that one can only “remove the land squabbles” by in effect removing the Jews from the land …
It changed 70 years ago. No reason it can’t again.
I didn’t say they were, just that they should if their goal was to go down the most moral path
I’m aware of the history of what could have happened. Nevertheless, what did happen is what all of us have to deal with. Its odd that people like to tell the Palestinians to suck it up and get over it but they don’t express that same sentiment to the Israeli’s (telling them to suck it up and get over the attacks because they took land someone else had a claim on).
Why do you tell them to let go of their claims while admitting it won’t happen but don’t tell Israel the same thing?
Your tone
I never said exterminate. Just move them. Pack them up in giant shipping containers filled with bubble wrap and ship them to Idaho.
The solution is to accept that you can’t ask one side to do something where you’re not comfortable asking the other side and use the buffer of 70 years as an excuse. If people expect the Palestinians to happily live under Israel, then they should be just as assured that Jews can live under a Palestinian government. Don’t suggest that only Jews are capable of fairly treating Palestinians and point to Hamas when the only reason Hamas exists is because of their land claims. Get rid of that, give Palestinians the land, and they have shown in the past to be perfectly capable of ruling a country where a large percentage of people are Jewish. I think that the argument will never go anywhere until people acknowledge this fact, that Jews are perfectly safe under Palestinians and its only because of the land claims that there is even a conflict
You don’t have to turn the clock back. You can see Jewish people living under existing Arab/Muslim majority countries where they are not being slaughtered or mistreated. Eventually, you have to acknowledge to yourself that Hamas represents a very small and very specific set of Arabs with very specific claims. I think without the land claims, Jews would living perfectly fine under Palestinians.
Or both by making the whole of Israel under international governance. Hell, give it back to England because at this time, neither of them really deserve it all that much
One way to approach this question might be by considering a hypothetical. Supposing Hamas simply ceased to exist, overnight. A week from now, what would be the status of the peaceful non-Hamas citizens of Gaza, with respect to Israel? Would the peoplr of Gaza be content with the circumstances, of would there be movements to create a new Hamas, to redress grievances?
A number of points to address:
(1) The idea usually mooted is a two-state solution - that each ethnicity have its nationality. Not that Palestinians live under Israeli leadership (well, except for those who are already Israeli citizens).
(2) There has been no time in history when Palestinians have ruled over Jews. That has never happened. The reason: there has been no time in history when Palestinians have ruled. I am not sure why you are asserting that “… give Palestinians the land, and they have shown in the past to be perfectly capable of ruling a country where a large percentage of people are Jewish”. When, exactly, has this ever happened?
(3) As for more general “Arab rule”, history has not shown that Jews are “generally safe” under it, but the opposite. Do you know where the historic Jewish communities of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc. mostly are now? They are all gone.
Where, exactly? Few Jews are left living in Arab/Muslim majority countries. I believe there is a community of them in Iran - there is alleged to be some 8,000 living there, and that is the largest community in any Muslim-majority nation, allegedly. True, they are not being “slaughtered or mistreated” - indeed they have a reserved seat in the Iranian parliament - but then, they barely exist.
Iran is however very moderate by comparison to our Ally Saudi Arabia, which doesn’t even let Jews set foot in the country!
Hamas is representative of the Muslim Brotherhood, which won popular elections in Egypt (as you may recall). Currently, Syria and Iraq are overrun by ISIS, which is alleged to be even more extreme. Saudi Arabia doesn’t even allow a Jew to live there at all. Even relatively liberal Jordan expelled all its Jews, and none live there now.
I think it is fair to say that, outside of relatively liberal countries like Iran, right now is not a good time to be making the case that Jews would “generally” fare well under majority Muslim/Arab rule in the ME.
Hyperbole.
Any reason Palestinians can’t move to the US? A lot are already here. Of course if they tried the genocide thing Idahoans would massacre them. Maybe they could go find an abandoned oil platform and declare that Palestine? The world would be pleased.
Or just convert everyone, Jewish and Muslim, to the Quaker faith, and then they’ll all be perfectly peaceful.
Except history, right? How many Jews live comfortably in Jordan, Syria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc.?
I’m hoping you’re just trying to be funny, but at that, as well as reasoned discourse, you’re failing pretty damn badly.
I have a guess…but, obviously, with counter-factual hypotheticals, guesses are all we have.
Parties would spring up, along a spectrum. Some would argue for peaceful co-existence with Israel, and progress along a path to permanent peace. Some would argue for continued violence and Death to All Jews.
The violent parties would begin by killing off the leadership of the peaceful and moderate parties, terrorizing their own people, and seizing control by sham elections.
And we’d have Hamas II.
In the absence of Hamas, why would there still need to be a “path to peaceful coexistence”? Peaceful coexistence would already be there, and Israel and Gaza could then proceed as independent entities, each free to find their own way in the global community of nations. Unless one entity or the other manifests a motive to impede such a development.
Do think thiat if Hamas disappeared and Israel walked away, there would still be a strong “Death to all Israelis” sentiment?
Let’s see, how about this: The difference between Hamas and Israel.
Hamas
Terrorist organization
Charter of organization - aim is to wipe out Israel
Sets up military installations in civilian areas - neighborhoods, hospitals, schools, playgrounds
Fires unguided rockets into Israel by the thousands
Doesn’t seem to care that Israel is much more heavily armed - there is an ulterior motive
Israel
A democratic nation with Arabs in their governing body
Just wants to be left alone and live in peace.
Finally reacts to rocket attacks with military response
Gives notice when they intend to shell a particular district - warnings, leaflets, who does this?
It’s difficult for me to understand someone who doesn’t understand how this war is being provoked and then is being waged.
They are related to the other guys, or they just don’t like Jews.
But he asked how someone doesn’t **understand **how this war is being provoked and then is being waged. I bet you both those who are related to the other guys or just don’t like Jews still understand exactly how this was was provoked and how it was conducted (unless, of course, they are either very stupid or very ignorant). They just don’t express their understanding - because they are related to the other guys or just don’t like Jews.
I was being polite.
I don’t know, when you hate someone or a group so much, you may delude yourself.
Highjack of sorts – but, God knows, we don’t need another damn thread –
It drives me just fucking CRAZY that this is a right-wing/left-wing thing in the U.S. – and that I’m on the wrong side! I’m pro-Israel – and so is Sean Hannity, Roger Hedgecock, most extreme right-wing Christian Hate Radio stations (KBRT, for example) and people with whom I disagree on every other topic.
It’s the only thing I have ever agreed with Terr on!
Liberals used to be at the core of U.S. support for Israel. That’s largely gone now, and I regret it very bitterly. I know, here on the SDMB, there are at least a few other liberals who are also pro-Israel. But nationwide, we seem to be damn rare.
(Sean Fucking Hannity! Jeez God! I’m in agreement with that loathsome sack!)
I know what you mean. On Facebook I’ve apparently confused most of my friends.
I wonder why.
I can tell you when I switched, and why.
1978, right after the Camp David accords.
The accords were a wonderful thing, carrying with them the promise of long-term peace and safety for Israel. No more Nasser-style threats of pushing Israel into the sea. If Egypt and Israel were at peace, Jordan wasn’t a worry (it had sidelined itself in the Yom Kippur War of 1973, so if it wasn’t going to fight alongside both Egypt and Syria, it wasn’t going to fight alongside just Syria), and Syria wasn’t going to try to invade Israel without any allies.
Israel as a nation was safe at last. It was truly a golden moment.
And Menachem Begin took advantage of Israel’s newfound security by…what, folks?
Yes, that’s right - he initiated the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Began the process of taking the West Bank away from the people who had been living there.
When you finally don’t have to worry about getting beaten up by the gang down the street, and the first thing you do is pick on someone else, it doesn’t speak well for you.
And of course, it’s been downhill ever since.