Israel or Hamas - who do you think is in the right?

[appleciders]

@Trinopus

That’s what war is. It is disciplining an entire country for the actions of its leadership.

If WWII could have been fought only against members of the Nazi Party…great! If it could have been limited so that only members of the German armed forces were casualties, fine! But that wasn’t possible.

Innocent civilians get killed in war. I have a really good suggestion: don’t make war. If you do…don’t imagine it’s going to be pretty.

This, in my opinion, is the damned fool hypocrisy of the critiques here. A state of war exists, hostilities have broken out…and people are saying, “Wait! People are dying.” Well, yeah.

I do have an intermediate suggestion. If Hamas won’t stop the fighting, they could allow free elections. If they get voted out of power, that indicates that the people don’t like the current state of the war. What do the people there actually want?

Great! Let’s have Israel actually, legally, formally declare war on Palestine. They’ll have to recognize the Palestinian government (and vice versa!), at least in practice if not formally. Let Palestine join the U.N. and be represented there. Allow Palestine to arm itself, probably through its Arab and Persian allies. And after the war, which I think Palestine will lose handily, Israel can stop blockading Gaza. Palestine can be allowed to stop the illegal settlement of Israelis on occupied Palestinian land. Palestinians can stop having to go through Israeli checkpoints all the damn time. Maybe the border between Gaza and Egypt can be opened and placed in Palestinian control, and the bridges across the Jordan too, so that Palestinians can have a real shot at having an economy; you know that those tunnels that transport weapons also transport food and medicine because the Israeli blockade stops so much Palestinian trade. If there’s a war, there can eventually be a peace afterwards where nations can have a fair shot at being nations. A big part of the problem here is that Palestine has been occupied for decades and not really allowed to be a country.

And actually, there’s a general election in Palestine scheduled for November of this year. I just learned that myself. Check it out. Hopefully they can be free and fair; I know that there has been considerable Israeli obstruction to Palestinian elections in the past (insistence on Hebrew-only voting documents, the IDF preventing the distribution of ballots, the IDF preventing candidates from giving campaign speeches, that sort of thing) and while I didn’t find any evidence of irregularities or vote-rigging or voter intimidation from the Palestinians in past elections in my cursory search, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t any at all.

[Terr]

A selection of Egyptian TV commentators’ views on Hamas:

- YouTube

[Trinopus]

@appleciders

Great! Let’s have Israel actually, legally, formally declare war on Palestine. They’ll have to recognize the Palestinian government (and vice versa!), at least in practice if not formally. . . .

I think Israel pretty much does: Hamas is the government in Gaza, and Israel knows that. This is a war against Hamas.

I am also pretty sure that Israel, in the Knesset and the Cabinet, followed the same legal rules to permit the use of force that the U.S. used for Vietnam or Iraq. There is an “authorization for the use of military force.” That’s today’s equivalent of “formally declaring war.”

Let Palestine join the U.N. and be represented there.

As part of the two-state solution, this is what I favor.

Allow Palestine to arm itself, probably through its Arab and Persian allies. And after the war, which I think Palestine will lose handily, Israel can stop blockading Gaza.

I wonder if this is what you really want, given that the civilian casualty rate would increase dramatically in such a situation. If Palestine, under Hamas, is allowed to arm itself with effective weaponry, Israel will have to break out its own weapons of mass destruction.

You seem to be arguing for a military escalation. Is this how you intend to reduce civilian casualties? It seems terribly counterproductive to that end.

Palestine can be allowed to stop the illegal settlement of Israelis on occupied Palestinian land. . . .

How, exactly? By military force? You observe that they would lose a war.

Negotiation is the only way out of this hell. I actually do favor a Palestinian State, with U.N. recognition. Now, there’s a question of its borders…

And actually, there’s a general election in Palestine scheduled for November of this year. I just learned that myself. Check it out.

See? They were listening to my advice! Seriously, great. I will be watching with much interest.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@appleciders

Great! Let’s have Israel actually, legally, formally declare war on Palestine. They’ll have to recognize the Palestinian government (and vice versa!), at least in practice if not formally. Let Palestine join the U.N. and be represented there. Allow Palestine to arm itself, probably through its Arab and Persian allies. And after the war, which I think Palestine will lose handily, Israel can stop blockading Gaza. Palestine can be allowed to stop the illegal settlement of Israelis on occupied Palestinian land. Palestinians can stop having to go through Israeli checkpoints all the damn time. Maybe the border between Gaza and Egypt can be opened and placed in Palestinian control, and the bridges across the Jordan too, so that Palestinians can have a real shot at having an economy; you know that those tunnels that transport weapons also transport food and medicine because the Israeli blockade stops so much Palestinian trade. If there’s a war, there can eventually be a peace afterwards where nations can have a fair shot at being nations. A big part of the problem here is that Palestine has been occupied for decades and not really allCheck it out. Hopefully they can be free and fair; I know that there has been considerable Israeli obstruction to Palestinian elections in the past (insistence on Hebrew-only voting documents, the IDF preventing the distribution of ballots, the IDF preventing candidates from giving campaign speeches, that sort of thing) and while I didn’t find any evidence of irregularities or vote-rigging or voter intimidation from the Palestinians in past elections in my cursory search, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t any at all.

They were also supposed to have elections in 2010 in Gaza and those didn’t happen. I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Also considering how Fatah shot up the Palestinians parliamentary building the first time elections didn’t go their way, and Hamas tends to view Fatah as pussies I wouldn’t count on it.

Besides, when you start deciding anyone who doesn’t agree with you is an ameel(collaborator) or Jew, it becomes real easy to justify doing horrible stuff to them.

By this point there’ve probably been thousands of “collaborators” killed and I doubt any but a small handful actually gave any information to the Israeli authorities as opposed to pissing off the wrong people.

[appleciders]

@Trinopus

I think Israel pretty much does: Hamas is the government in Gaza, and Israel knows that. This is a war against Hamas.

I am also pretty sure that Israel, in the Knesset and the Cabinet, followed the same legal rules to permit the use of force that the U.S. used for Vietnam or Iraq. There is an “authorization for the use of military force.” That’s today’s equivalent of “formally declaring war.”

I disagree; I think that’s a cowardly fig leaf, and I think the same when the U.S. did it in Vietnam, and when we did it in Iraq and Afghanistan, and when Putin failed to do it in the Crimea, and everyone else, too. It’s a dumb PR excuse that allows press secretaries to pretend that they’re not at war. Call it what it is, and admit that Israel has been at war with and occupying Palestine for a couple decades now.

As part of the two-state solution, this is what I favor.

Then we agree on that point, or at least, that’s a solution I could live with. I’d love a one-state solution, with full civil, legal, and voting rights for everyone, Israeli and Palestinian, but that’s partly my Americanism showing; that works for us here (well, since the Civil Rights Act and Voting rights Act, anyway) but I recognize that what works for us here may not work for other people in other situations.

I wonder if this is what you really want, given that the civilian casualty rate would increase dramatically in such a situation. If Palestine, under Hamas, is allowed to arm itself with effective weaponry, Israel will have to break out its own weapons of mass destruction.

You seem to be arguing for a military escalation. Is this how you intend to reduce civilian casualties? It seems terribly counterproductive to that end.
How, exactly? By military force? You observe that they would lose a war.

Negotiation is the only way out of this hell. I actually do favor a Palestinian State, with U.N. recognition. Now, there’s a question of its borders…

Negotiation would be great, but no one’s doing that right now and haven’t been for several years. When was the last serious attempt, the Camp David talks? The Annapolis conference didn’t solve a damn thing. Between the Palestinian intransigent refusal to recognize Israel and Israel’s intransigent refusal to stop settlements and economic blockades, they’re not going to get anywhere. And maintaining the status quo, where Israel slowly chokes out the Palestinians by occupying the land forever and forcing Palestinians to live as third-class citizens, unable to have any meaningful legal recourse against the occupying forces, is pretty grossly unfair to Palestine.

I don’t really want a military escalation. I think it would radically increase the death toll on both sides. My post earlier was slightly sarcastic and maybe that didn’t come across; the point was to emphasize that Israel engages in acts of war against the Palestinians every day, or at least what would be acts of war if Palestine was allowed to have a government. Instead, the Palestinians have to exist with no meaningful government to represent them. Opening up all those borders would probably allow Hamas to rearm in the short term, but at least they could try to fight a war, lose it, and come to negotiated terms afterward instead of just getting stomped on daily with no way to negotiate.

See? They were listening to my advice! Seriously, great. I will be watching with much interest.

Yeah, I hope that some reasonable party can gain control, or at least a meaningful minority. Unfortunately, I think that Palestinians will see that as knuckling under to the occupier, allowing themselves to be bullied by the Israeli military, and keep with the bellicose government they’ve got, especially since the elections will be right after Israeli shelling and bombing of Palestine.

[appleciders]

@Ibn_Warraq

Also considering how Fatah shot up the Palestinians parliamentary building the first time elections didn’t go their way, and Hamas tends to view Fatah as pussies I wouldn’t count on it.

I don’t know a lot about internal Palestinian politics (though I’ve been reading more tonight!) but the contradiction (theirs, not yours) in that statement, that Hamas views them as weak and that Fatah shot up Parliament, is bizarre.

In all honesty, what are the political divides between Hamas and Fatah? Wikipedia isn’t giving me a much of an explanation.

[bengangmo]

@doorhinge

(post shortened)

1. Rockets launched from Mexico are landing in the U.S.A…
2. The Mexican government would be expected to stop the terrorist attacks launched from Mexico.
3. The U.S. military will stop the attacks if the Mexican government can not do so.

Every country, and every person, has a right of self-defense.

I’d add onto this

1. Rockets launched by terrorist organisation with popular support from Mexico are landing in the U.S.A…
2. The Mexican government would be expected to stop the terrorist attacks launched from Mexico.
   2a) if the Mexican govt was incapable the American govt would help them
3. The U.S. military will stop the attacks if the Mexican government can not do so.
   3a) the US govt would (hopefully) help to build better options so that terrorism was less attractive
   3b) The US would provide an avenue to address legitimate complaints?

[Malthus]

@appleciders

While the ineffectiveness of Hamas terrorists doesn’t make them any less morally reprehensible, it does affect the amount of Israeli force required to be proportional. Because the rockets are largely ineffective, the kind of large scale Israeli response we’re seeing is very disproportionate, and so the many civilian casualties among the Palestinians are not justifiable, at least to me.

This sort of reasoning I’ve seen before, and it never ceases to puzzle me. Yes, the Hamas attacks lack teeth - but there is no evidence that this is not exactly because of Israel’s attacks on Hamas!

It seems to put the cart before the horse to demand that Hamas have a fair chance (one may almost say ‘a fair shot’) of killing lots of Israeli civilians before Israel is moraly “allowed” to try to attack the infrastructure Hamas has created to kill Israeli civilians.

[Malthus]

@bengangmo

I’d add onto this

1. Rockets launched by terrorist organisation with popular support from Mexico are landing in the U.S.A…
2. The Mexican government would be expected to stop the terrorist attacks launched from Mexico.
   2a) if the Mexican govt was incapable the American govt would help them
3. The U.S. military will stop the attacks if the Mexican government can not do so.
   3a) the US govt would (hopefully) help to build better options so that terrorism was less attractive
   3b) The US would provide an avenue to address legitimate complaints?

The difficulty in the case of Hamas is that you are dealing with an organization that specifically disavows ever making any sort of peace with Israel - indeed, that is part of its very constitution.

There is no evidence that addressing the legitimate complaints of Palestinians would do anything to soften that stance. Indeed, the best hope for addressing ‘legitimate complaints’ would be to gradually undermine Palestinain support for Hamas. However, given that Hamas now rules through intimidation as well as popularity, this would be a very long-range strategy indeed, and do nothing in the short or intermediate term to prevent Hamas from carrying out attacks.

[doorhinge]

@appleciders

How are unarmed civilians to stop armed Hamas terrorists from conducting launches? Those targeted areas are often the size of several city blocks. And while Israel has (to their great credit) sometimes given warnings to people in those areas, giving them a chance to evacuate, they have also sometimes not done that. Not every Palestinian voted for Hamas in elections (though I admit that the second-largest party, Fatah, is not any better and is probably worse) but there are moderate other parties. Still, casting a vote for a political party, any political party, does not justify the destruction of a person’s home or life.

Stop launching rockets into Israel and Israel wouldn’t have a reason to defend itself with airstrikes. :smack:

Leave the areas where the vengeance weapons are being fired from. Those are the areas being targeted by Israel’s self-defense efforts. :smack:

[DrDeth]

@doorhinge

(post shortened)

The Palestinians are deliberately launching their vengeance weapons from populated areas. If you want to destroy the rockets, rocket launchers, and the terrorists launching the rockets, you have to target the areas where they are being hidden.

.

Hamas also lies. Of course they never say “Well, hell, that airstrike took out one of our rocket sites.” Instead it’s always widows and orphans.:dubious:

[doorhinge]

@DrDeth

Hamas also lies. Of course they never say “Well, hell, that airstrike took out one of our rocket sites.” Instead it’s always widows and orphans.:dubious:

And the Hamas vengeance weapons may just have fallen short. Instead of reaching Israel, they landed on some other “peace-loving” Gaza resident.

[Trinopus]

@appleciders

I disagree; I think that’s a cowardly fig leaf, and I think the same when the U.S. did it in Vietnam, and when we did it in Iraq and Afghanistan, and when Putin failed to do it in the Crimea, and everyone else, too. It’s a dumb PR excuse that allows press secretaries to pretend that they’re not at war. Call it what it is, and admit that Israel has been at war with and occupying Palestine for a couple decades now.

Well, at least no one should single Israel out for this in particular, as it is the standard diplomatic language of the times.

Then we agree on that point, or at least, that’s a solution I could live with. I’d love a one-state solution, with full civil, legal, and voting rights for everyone, Israeli and Palestinian, but that’s partly my Americanism showing; that works for us here (well, since the Civil Rights Act and Voting rights Act, anyway) but I recognize that what works for us here may not work for other people in other situations. . . .

I’m afraid that Iraq just showed us the results of that model.

[blindboyard]

@doorhinge

Stop launching rockets into Israel and Israel wouldn’t have a reason to defend itself with airstrikes. :smack:

And yet the air strikes began before the rockets did.

Leave the areas where the vengeance weapons are being fired from. Those are the areas being targeted by Israel’s self-defense efforts. :smack:

That Gaza Strip is very small and Israel’s bombings are very indiscriminate.

[Trinopus]

@blindboyard

And yet the air strikes began before the rockets did. . . .

??? This is new to me. I absolutely detest people who say, “Cite, please,” but, ah…

[appleciders]

@Trinopus

??? This is new to me. I absolutely detest people who say, “Cite, please,” but, ah…

This month’s events weren’t triggered by Hamas rocket attacks; actually, before July of this year rocket attacks were actually at multi-year lows. A couple of Hamas terrorists kidnapped and murdered three Israeli teenagers, and Israeli civilians kidnapped and murdered a Palestinian teenager in retaliation. On July 6th the IDF began air strikes and very shortly thereafter Hamas increased rocket attacks.

Wikipedia has actually come through to a pretty neutral consensus, at least as I write this. Here’s a good summary:2014 Gaza War - Wikipedia

[Terr]

@appleciders

On July 6th the IDF began air strikes and very shortly thereafter Hamas increased rocket attacks.

Let’s see, this is the article from July 6th:

Israeli Airstrikes Hit Gaza Strip as Rockets Continue to Fall

Israel’s military carried out airstrikes on 10 sites in the Gaza Strip early Sunday, the army said, as tensions remained high following weekend clashes between Israeli police and demonstrators in Jerusalem and Arab towns in northern Israel. The Israeli airstrikes targeted what it said were militant sites including rocket launchers and a weapons manufacturing site, following at least 29 other rockets and mortars fired from the Gaza Strip at Israel over the weekend, the army said. Two of those rockets were aimed at Beersheba, a southern city deeper into Israel than any other attack in the current round of violence.

or maybe this one:

Israeli Air Strikes Kill 7 Gaza Gunmen: Hamas Militants - Newsweek

GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli air strikes killed seven Hamas gunmen early Monday, the Islamist group’s armed wing said, making it their highest single death toll since a 2012 cross-border war with the Jewish state.

Israeli military authorities confirmed the strikes, saying they “responded to rocket attacks against southern Israel,” targeting 9 “terror” sites and concealed rocket launchers.

The attacks followed a surge in rocket strikes at Israel from Gaza, where Hamas is the dominant force. The Israeli military said these attacks have topped 150 since mid-June, including about 20 rockets striking Israel on Sunday alone.

I guess you’re wrong.

[Evil_Captor]

I’ve changed my mind. Israel is in the wrong. They are bombing hospitals and power plants. They have become what they despise – and what I despise. As the rocket attacks have been so ineffectual, they are starting more and more to look like a pretext rather than a provocation.

[doorhinge]

@blindboyard

And yet the air strikes began before the rockets did.

That Gaza Strip is very small and Israel’s bombings are very indiscriminate.

Is that the current storyline from the latest Hamas press release?

Hamas has always wanted to destroy Israel. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel and then whine when Israel defends itself. Palestinians store arms in civilian areas, in hospitals, in schools, and chose to stand on roof tops to protect Hamas leaders knowing that those will become targeted areas.

Israel has a right to defend itself. If Hamas wants Israel to stop defending itself, Hamas has to stop attacking Israel.

[Terr]

@Evil_Captor

I’ve changed my mind. Israel is in the wrong. They are bombing hospitals and power plants. They have become what they despise – and what I despise. As the rocket attacks have been so ineffectual, they are starting more and more to look like a pretext rather than a provocation.

Yes, those tunnels into Israel (a few whose targets were (I am not kidding) kindergartens in the nearby kibbutzim) are not “provocations”. I am sure they were just a hobby Palestinians were indulging in.