And after Israel meets their demands, what does Hamas plan to do to assure Israel of its safety? Pinky swear they will not harm Israel anymore?
The leader of Hamas could not even say he would accept the nation of Israel in his most recent interview. They are offering no reason for Israel to meet any of their terms.
Isn’t the point how many women and children does Hamas have to see dead to be satisfied?
You have acknowledged that Hamas has started it. What exactly can Israel do to end it? A party has to acknowledge defeat in order for there to be peace.
Assume Israel does what you apparently want and ceases all attacks. Hamas declares victory and goes on firing rockets and morters into Israel. What are the Israelis supposed to do? Counter-battery fire - which the Israelis started with - also kills lots of civilians, so presumably they have to stop that too.
Now, sans counterbattery fire, Israeli civilian deaths and injuries start to mount, as Hamas can shoot with impunity - and remember, any form of artillery (including rocket artillery aimed at towns and cities, which this is) gets more accurate with secure firing platforms - it was (allegedly) Israeli counterbattery fire playing wack-a-mole with the rocket launchers that made them so pitifully inaccurate. But, lead by the Moral Sensibility of Evil Captor, the Israelis have now sworn off doing that.
So Israelis start to die. Worse, Israel is in a constant state of siege. The true effect of random rocket barrages isn’t really to kill people, it is to disrupt normal life - everyone has to listen all the time, day and night, for the sirens.
What next? Well, negotiations to be sure. But why should Hamas negotiate now? It has won.
To answer:
(a) The artillery attacks on Israel - rocket and mortar - have only killed or injured a couple of thousand Israelis over the years, but that is not their primary “use”. The idea is not to kill every last Israeli, but to make normal civil life impossible - constantly listening for the sirens to go off, and running for the shelters.
(b) Hamas hasn’t been around for 60 years. More like a dozen or so, as a major player. They are considerably more virulent than previous Palestinian organizations: their governing Charter outright states that their purpose is genocide and that they will reject any and all peace initiatives.
(c) The restoration of Germany and Japan was relatively swift - aided by the fact that they lost completely, their ruling classes were put on trial and many executed, and their countries more or less totally destroyed by war. No-one seriously suggests treating Gaza in that manner.
Nobody’s in the right. Israel, by dint of sheer massive carnage inflicted, is further into the wrong. But that fact doesn’t magically turn Hamas into ‘the good guys.’
Sometimes there’s only bad and worse.
Or (probably most apropos for this situation) two equally bad sides but one has a lot of power for good or evil (and uses it for evil) and one doesn’t have much power at all (but uses it for evil).
I have no doubt that if the power relationships were reversed, Hamas would be dishing out more carnage than Israel is now. But they aren’t. They’re A problem. But Israel is THE problem.
Darn those Israelis for defending themselves!
Regards,
Shodan
Darn Hamas for retaliating, however ineffectively, against the Israeli siege of Gaza!
-nevermind-
I start shooting into my neighbors house with a .22 at one shot a day. After a time I kill one of his family.
I keep it up.
He should use a .22 and fire at the same rate?
Or
Use the .50 CAL he has to blow major holes in my house?
He should not be able to that because I don’t have my own .50 CAL?
Maybe I should have thought of that before I even started.
IMO, in a war, there is no such thing as keeping it proportional. We went nuclear in the past, we are now going to throw rocks at Israel for getting there first with the mostest?
Well, no, the ruling classes of Germany and Japan were not tried nor executed. A small number of Japanese military and government officials were, and a larger number of Germans, mostly Nazi party officials.
Yes, many members of the ruling classes were deliberately marginalized, as the occupation government tried to keep them out of positions of power in the post-war bureaucracy and first elected governments.
Your second point is much more valid: Germany and Japan were all but reduced to piles of rubble. They were very dependent on allied aid for their early reconstruction.
Also, there was the communist spectre. There was the boogey-man, Joe Stalin, making it much easier for the people to side with the allies. That helped still resentment.
None of this seems to me to resemble the situation in Gaza or the West Bank.
ETA: FWIW, I actually am very much on your side, and agree with nearly everything you have posted, in this thread and in other threads. I think you’re very, very correct in your posts. I just felt I had to nitpick a teense. Forgive me, if you may.
It would be nice if the curb stomper confines his stomping to the opponent instead of random passersby
Maybe you should think of a different strategy at that point
The thing you guys don’t get about this conflict and why it won’t stop just because Israel is mostly in the right is that continuous violence will only breed more violence.
What does Israel want more than anything? To live in peace and to exist, right? Do they think that more killing of random people who don’t deserve it will accomplish that? Sure sure, some of them might be sympathetic to Hamas, but so are people all over the world. If given the chance, does Israel think that just by killing those people, they would achieve that goal?
Its true that Hamas puts women and children in the line of fire to generate sympathy, but if you know that’s what they’re doing and they’re successful at it, why would Israel do the stupidest thing possible and acquiesce to their tactics? The Israeli’s are basically giving Hamas what they want: sympathy and cover. Everyone knows that this latest offensive is not going to permanently end the war, nor will it permanently destroy Hamas, nor would Israel come out sympathetic. So why do it?
Its all about short-term goals over long-term gains. By all means, continue to fall into the trap of Hamas. Any time they need to raise some money, or get some sympathy, they’ll ratchet up the attacks and make Israel respond. It’ll happen again after this latest group of attacks are over, and it’ll happen again after that. If Israel is fine living in those conditions, then good for them, but some of us feel that not falling for the bait is a smarter way to wage war.
But hey, maybe Israel wants to be in continuous battle with its neighbors. Maybe its ultimate goal isn’t peace, but continuous low-level assault to justify their hawkishness on war. Maybe they want to provoke Iran just enough to give themselves cover to attack those supposed nuclear bomb making factories they have. Who knows? What I do know is that this kind of attack is a great indicator of more of the same. And I cannot honestly say Israel doesn’t want that
But of course, if Israel didn’t maintain the blockade continuously for the seven years after the threat was made, then…can you fill in this blank for me? Because I’m missing something.
Also, that has fuck-all to do with the naval component of the blockade. If people could freely enter and leave Gaza by sea, and Hamas fired on them, what would that have to do with Israel, and why would Israel have anything to do with that?
And it would be clear to everyone that Hamas was acting in a morally monstrous way for no apparent reason.
It would be nice if it was possible to undertake military actions against an enemy dug into an urban environment and only hit enemy combatants. Sadly, it is not.
The problem with doing nothing and just accepting constant Hamas attacks - which appears to be in effect what you are advocating - is that life under random bombardment is, in fact, kinda difficult. Sure, it doesn’t kill many people - because after all, sirens go off and people go into shelter - but it is also very difficult to resume normal life, what with the threat of bombardment from above, and kidnapping and murder from tunnels below.
Now, military actions will not halt the attacks permanently - but they can, and do, lessen them or create “ceasefires” for a time. Part of the reason given for why Hamas has been so ineffectual is Israeli military counter-measures (and Hamas ineffectuality is then used by some, perversely, as evidence of why said countermeaures are unnecessary!).
Now, it may well be the case that if Israel ceased all such military actions and just took its punishment meekly, world sympathy would switch from Hamas to Israel decisively. Or maybe not. In either event, world sympathy is highly overrated as a factor, when it comes to the ME conflict. I have yeat to hear about any long-term strategy for dealing with Hamas that makes any sense - they cannot be appeased, given their aims; merely allowing them to attack unhindred will not cause them to cease.
…Hamas would have shipped in concrete for tunnels and weapons and attacked Israel sooner.
No, actually the naval component is part of the whole - Israel wants to prevent Hamas from bringing in weapons like rockets that are used to try to kill Israelis.
Regards,
Shodan
Doing nothing is not what I’m advocating. Not doing what they’re currently doing is what I think would help them. Israel needs to change its tactics. Its hard, it may create temporary strife, but their goal of peace is hard and nobody should think that what makes them feel good and tough now helps them reach that goal
Okay then - though I seriously doubt if they are doing what they are doing now “to feel tough”.
If I mischaracterized your position, I apologize.
Since you clearly do not want them to “do nothing”, perhaps you could clarify exactly what it is you think they should do?
Because, yeah, you get to do that - keep a country under siege for years on end, just because of what they might do someday.
Hey, makes as much sense as our invasion of Iraq!
And, in related news, The Times of Israel published a piece the other day, explaining “When Genocide Is Permissible.”
The answer, apparently, is when Jews are administering it, rather than being on the receiving end. They say that being a victim doesn’t confer any wisdom; well, there’s your proof.
Well, no - what they have announced they want to do from the outset, have attempted to do in the past, have continued to do right up to the present, and have announced that they will continue to do in the future.
And it is not a siege. It’s a blockade - there’s a difference.
Get back to us when genocide is the official position of the Israeli government as it is the official position of Hamas, won’t you? Right it seems to be limited to a retracted editorial in a fringe digital-only newspaper.
AFAICT, that is - I wasn’t able to read the whole editorial, so for all I know the headline of the article to which you linked might be exaggerating.
Regards,
Shodan
I will tell you what I’m advocating with the caveat that I know there is information I don’t have, tactics I’m not aware of, and things just may not turn out wonderfully for Israel like I’ve predicted, but there is a chance that things will and this represents my best guess at how things will be. And whatever short-term damage Israel takes is all for the sake of long-term stability. Ok? We’re clear on that? Alright.
First thing’s first, I’m against the status quo. Its been proven not to have worked. The goal is total peace, maybe not like the friendship between US and Canada, then more like China and Japan where they freely acknowledge that they don’t especially like each other and extremists will whip up fury against the other for their own benefits, but both governments recognize the other and disputes are not usually settled by their militaries.
2nd, ideally there will be 2 states, but its not necessary. Peace is prioritized over statehood for the Palestinians.
3rd, I acknowledge that there is probably little we can do to influence outside parties who have a stake in prolonging the combat for their own nefarious purposes. Even if both sides totally agree to act like civilized people, there will be others who will try to influence things for their own benefits by causing strife. I won’t totally ignore them, but I won’t totally just throw my hands up in defeat and say that anyone who wants to mess with the plan will be successful.
4th, this is from the perspective of what Israel can and should do. Saying “Well why don’t you tell the Palestinians to do such and such…” is not an appropriate response because if you want to do that, why don’t I just say all sides should lay down their arms and get to fucking each other to create a mix race of Israeli Palestinians and sing songs around a campfire?
Israel needs to take a long-term look at how things will shape in the next few decades. Killing militants, even if righteously, will breed more militants, and I will bet anything that there will not be more Israeli’s than the billion or so Muslims they anger with every attack (and every false report by biased authorities in those Muslim countries).
Israel has the power to absorb attacks and ignore others and engage only with the proper legitimately peaceful members of Fatah. Now Fatah has been greatly weakened because they are corrupt, can provide little assurances for their people, and offer no satisfying bloodlust responses whenever Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians. So the first thing they need to do is totally isolate Hamas by dealing only with Fatah. Who gives a shit if they are corrupt, they are not the ones launching rockets. Abbas or whoever is nominally in charge of Fatah should be brought in to divide the Palestinian leadership between the two. Give Abbas what he asks for to stop the Israeli offensive, show the people that Fatah can keep its promises of peace. Totally isolate Hamas by publicly acquiescing with Fatah’s calls for an end to hostilities.
Next, remove all the settlers from the West Bank. No matter what you think about it, it will forever remain a point of contention. A fully realized Palestinian state may not be done with Israel gobbling up pieces of the West Bank and unilaterally annexing land. They’ll have to do what they did in Gaza and move their people out to show the Palestinians they are serious.
So now Israel has given them some land and taken steps to legitimize Fatah over Hamas. Now comes the tricky part: winning hearts and minds. This will be the longest part of the operation, it will not come this decade or next. Too many people grew up seeing Israel, rightly or wrongly, as the aggressors. Like it or not, when one side is overwhelmingly more powerful than the other, than that side is going to get more scrutiny. Its not fair, but get over the notions of fairness. The goal is peace, don’t forget that. To that end, Israel must never, ever get sidetracked by extremists trying to derail the peace process. It doesn’t matter if Hamas and suicide bombers launch a hundred attacks, they must never say to Fatah “You can’t control your own people, therefore we won’t deal with you”. They must never blame Fatah for any attacks. They must never retaliate against Fatah for what Hamas does and pull out of negotiations or even some pointless joint project building a Walmart or something. Always isolate Hamas and terrorist by blaming them for everything, even if they think some Fatah elements might be helping or encouraging it.
Israel needs to do that to establish a clear peaceful governmental body on the Palestinian side in contrast to Hamas. Decades of war, blockades, and weak leadership has rendered those who want peace to be almost powerless. The plan is to give them that power back by giving them legitimacy. A gangster passing out money in the streets will win more converts than an honest politician who can vote to open up the treasury for the poor. Fatah has no power to stop Hamas, nor to arrest them, nor to launch some kind of large scale operation against them. And if you ask Palestinians while they are getting bombed by Israel who they favor, they’re going to say kill the Jews and rally behind Hamas. So knowing that they need to give power to Fatah, Israel needs to not react by punishing Fatah even by proxy. Publicly request Fatah to go after Hamas after every attack, never attack Hamas directly without public support from Fatah. Give every credit to Fatah even for a little bit of respite from violence. Do that for years, decades, to establish a clear line between terrorists and a peaceful if corrupt government.
Now obviously we’ll get infiltrators and sympathizers in Fatah, that’s no question. But look at how the US is dealing with Pakistan. Don’t you think most people know Pakistan is really not our friend? That they like to play us off against the Taliban next door and in their country so we’re not fully supporting India? We use them, they use us, we both know it. The worst thing would be if the US says they don’t trust Pakistan because some people were harboring Osama and declare their entire government terrorist and start bombing them. To me, that’s like what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So no retaliation, even if its obviously through Fatah’s maliciousness or negligence. Someday, maybe a better, less corrupt, and more peaceful party will rise up in Palestine and Israel can deal with them, but its never going to happen if Israel continues to do what its currently doing.
The point of helping Palestine establish a different government from Hamas is to create a party that’s, on the surface, dedicated to peace, and to buy time. Like I said, people are too used to Israel being the aggressors. Unfortunately, I don’t see hearts and minds changing in this generation who remember fleeing from Palestine or remember Israel shelling homes and schools. This generation of kids growing up in this violence must be allowed to grow old and die and/or be replaced before true peace can last, so Israel must keep this plan up for, oh, around 50 years at least. Imagine the cries of Hamas and its ilk being continuously dwarfed by kids who grow up in 20, 30, 40, 50 years who’ve never seen Israel react except with kindness, never seen them bomb a school or a hospital, never seen them bulldoze their friends houses. That is a powerful group that will shape Palestine for peace and not call for Israel’s genocide at every turn.
At the same time, Israel must acknowledge the dilapidated conditions in Palestine by helping their government provide services to people. I’m a full believer that happy, economically satisfied people don’t rise up in unison to kill themselves through suicide bombs. Yes it happens, but not in any significant numbers. We have millions of Muslims in the US. There’s less than a handful that ever decided to leave all this middle class dream behind to blow someone or themselves up. So to that end, Israel should continue to build settlements in the West Bank, but do it for Palestinians under cooperation from Fatah. Build schools, malls, parks, factories, hospitals, etc. for them. Yes, some will be misused, but given enough time and enough places, ordinary Palestinians will see its to their favor to reduce the virulent hate speech that takes them away from their pizza parlors and movie theaters.
Lastly, Israel needs to give Palestinians some powerful symbols of progress. Much of progress is little known, doesn’t get a lot of press, or is too complicate for people to rally around. Sometimes symbols, even pointless, will do a lot to soothe hurts. Allow a limited number of Palestinians to return. Make them full citizens of Israel. Give them land, build them homes, offer them jobs in Israel. Protect them as they will be targets, keep them safe and hold them up to be a symbol of unity. Delay this step long enough and you’ll only have a bunch of 80 and 90 year olds who fit some arbitrary criteria Israel and use to lower the number of people given this right. Also, stop calling yourself a Jewish state. Its enough that Israel is a state that is legitimate and survives, no need to keep poking the bear in the eye by reminding them of religious differences. Stop insisting people acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state. Maybe crack down on some of your own homegrown extremists too like those in the Orthodox. And give up some symbolic buildings that are just buildings like the Dome of the Rock or Temple Mount. Acknowledge, in a few decades once there is more peace, that Jerusalem is a special city that doesn’t deserve to be only owned by Jews but allow a shared coalition of religions, possibly overseen by the UN, to run the place, with maybe some enclaves for Jews, Muslims, and Christians.
These are just some of the things Israel can and should do
I’m pretty sure that won’t happen. 
It’s too tied in with people trying to kill every Jew that could be found.