# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/261 "2016-06-29T19:31:41Z")
> [@Gruff](#): > > A way to up the body count on their side so people a world away don’t start calling it “asymmetric.” Or, and here’s a crazy idea, we could kill fewer innocent Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/262 "2016-06-29T20:36:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I disagree. I believe Israel plans for an eventual Palestinian state, but wishes to ‘carve off’ bits of what used to be Jordanian WB territory for itself (notably, East Jerusalem). That’s the point of the ‘settlements’ - to carve off chunks by creating ‘facts on the ground’. That sounds kinda shitty. > [@](#): > > Palestinians living on the new ‘Israeli side’ (again, notably East Jerusalemites) would presumably become Israeli citizens; those living on the ‘Palestinian side’ would become Palestinian state citizens. The difficulty will be what to do with Palestinians in the carved-off sections unwilling to accept Israeli citizenship. > > Israel could not do what Jordan attempted and simply make all WB inhabitants Israelis - not only because that would alarm Israelis (though it would), but more importantly, it would be fundamentally unacceptable to Palestinians, as it would mark the end of their nationalism. I was under the impression that there were in fact some hard core Hamas types that were in favor of a one state solution where EVERYONE is an Israeli citizen. > [@](#): > > The “limbo” currently is the result of both obdurate Israeli leadership (Bibi & Co.) and, more importantly, of fundamental demands by the Palestinian negotiators which are simply not acceptable to the Israelis: namely, that Palestine gets Jerusalem, and that Palestinians get an unlimited ‘right of return’. Israel will never agree to those demands, and the Palestinian negotiators know it; however, the Palestinian negotiators could not survive Palestinian anger if they agree to give them up - Arabs who negotiate peace deals with Israel have a tendency to be assassinated, and I have no doubt that any Palestinian leader agreeing to give up these demands risks his life. I don’t blame either side for this reality, it just is what it is. I don’t know if either side has the political capital to meet the other side half way. Until then, one side will suffer oppression and the other side with suffer scorn as oppressors. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/263 "2016-06-29T20:39:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > How many times do I have to say it? READ POST #175 before you ask me obvious bullshit. I asked a perfectly valid question, which, I perceive, you do not want to answer for some odd reason. Are you seriously unable, for ideological reasons, to condemn the rocket attacks? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/264 "2016-06-29T20:50:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That sounds kinda shitty. I’m not saying otherwise. It is a raw deal for the Palestinians, and gets rawer by the day. > [@](#): > > I was under the impression that there were in fact some hard core Hamas types that were in favor of a one state solution where EVERYONE is an Israeli citizen. Yes, but with the caveat that all of the _Jewish_ Israelis currently living there are driven out, killed, or agree to acknowledge Islamic superiority - a rather unlikely outcome at this point by the Palestinians, unaided by outsiders, given that the Jewish Israelis both outnumber them and hold a vast superiority in arms. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if either side has the political capital to meet the other side half way. Until then, one side will suffer oppression and the other side with suffer scorn as oppressors. There is one concern: every day that the deadlock continues, the Palestinian position grows worse. It is far more in their interests to arrive at a solution than it is in the Israelis’. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/265 "2016-06-30T14:54:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not saying otherwise. It is a raw deal for the Palestinians, and gets rawer by the day. It seems to reinforce the notion that the Israelis are stealing land from the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > Yes, but with the caveat that all of the _Jewish_ Israelis currently living there are driven out, killed, or agree to acknowledge Islamic superiority - a rather unlikely outcome at this point by the Palestinians, unaided by outsiders, given that the Jewish Israelis both outnumber them and hold a vast superiority in arms. I don’t recall genocide or ethnic cleansing being a caveat. I thought the premise was that the normal mechanisms of democracy and demographics would transform Israel from a Jewish state to a non-Jewish state with a large Jewish minority. > [@](#): > > There is one concern: every day that the deadlock continues, the Palestinian position grows worse. It is far more in their interests to arrive at a solution than it is in the Israelis’. Things have been changing over the last few years. It is now politically possible for a candidate on either side of the aisle in the US to express doubts about Israel. I don’t think we will throw Israel under the bus but ISTM that between the end of the cold war and the rise of groups like ISIS, I’m not so sure that Israel is the most important relationship we have in the middle east these days. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/266 "2016-06-30T15:13:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It seems to reinforce the notion that the Israelis are stealing land from the Palestinians. Well, yes: I think that, through the “settlements”, they are doing just that, in some places. It’s bad of them. I think certain right wing Israeli politicians are using the deadlock as an excuse to steal what they can, though creating ‘facts on the ground’ in advance of an expected settlement. This is why the deadlock doesn’t work to Palestinian advantage. The longer it lasts, the more the hard right in Israel is encouraged (and the left is discouraged), and the more “settlements” encroach on what had been Palestinian land. While Israel has been willing in the past to clear out “settlements” standing in the way of peace deals (see: Sinai, Gaza), it is politically costly and difficult. This is what the Israeli right is counting on. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall genocide or ethnic cleansing being a caveat. I thought the premise was that the normal mechanisms of democracy and demographics would transform Israel from a Jewish state to a non-Jewish state with a large Jewish minority. It is part of the Hamas Charter. > [@](#): > > Things have been changing over the last few years. It is now politically possible for a candidate on either side of the aisle in the US to express doubts about Israel. I don’t think we will throw Israel under the bus but ISTM that between the end of the cold war and the rise of groups like ISIS, I’m not so sure that Israel is the most important relationship we have in the middle east these days. I’m not sure why this matters to the issue. The US isn’t about to take any concrete actions against Israel, at most it will withdraw funding and express the usual objections to Israeli actions - which will not really affect the course of events in a fundamental way: Israel is not, contrary to some opinions, reliant on US subsidies as an existential matter. Withdrawing the subsidies would hurt them, but not enough to dissuade them from adjusting the borders to their own satisfaction. Put it this way: the Palestinians could not win with war, when they had the whole Arab world at least theoretically behind them in arms - with Soviet backing (US backing for Israel post-dates the vital '67 war). How are they supposed to win with war now, when the Soviet Union is history (Putin is a poor man’s replacement), the Arab nations are internally fractured by revolt, and are a hundred times more scared of ISIS than they are of Israel? Where, practically speaking, is their leverage to come from? Their hand has few cards in it, getting fewer all the time. Waiting around for it to improve through sympathy from Western sources, while making impossible demands, strikes me as a losing strategy - it plays straight into the hands of the Israeli right, who is set on worsening their situation. Better to make a reasonable offer and enlist Israeli left wing in their camp, isolating the Israeli right as unreasonable and damaging to Israel’s international image, and get a deal done. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/267 "2016-06-30T20:58:56Z")
Too much Palestinian “pride” to get that compromise done. Too many people actually care more about justice and preserving some form of dignity (ridiculous terms like right of return that would dissolve the Israeli state) to save face after decades of military and political losses it’s just a dead end. This is how it will all play out. There will continue to be no partner for peace, the Israeli right will keep pushing farther and farther with settlements, Europe will continue bds, The Palestinians will stay the relative gutter because surprise surprise, the Israelis are not masochistic enough to commit suicide to allow them to save the face they want to save. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/268 "2016-06-30T21:52:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > To me, the rocket attacks fully justify the retaliation. I know it’s a hoary cliche, but what would the U.S. do if someone lobbed rockets over the border into Texas or Michigan? Until recently I believed as you do. However, in the past year I’ve done some more research; my church has been sending people to Israel and Palestine (mostly Bethlehem) and I’ve come around to believe that Israel is the much larger problem. At issue is that the Palestinians have no (none, nada, zip, zero, etc.) legal recourse to illegal Israeli actions. Most of the time this involves the confiscation of Palestinian land: Palestinians are evicted and the land is (eventually) given to Israeli settlers. The Palestinians attempt to bring this to court but it is ignored. The same thing happens with soldiers: an Israeli soldier will perform some illegal act (sometimes murder) and rarely is punished. I don’t condone the terrorist actions by the groups in the area–especially the rockets–but what else would you recommend the Palestinians do that would have any hope of working? Meanwhile Israel is still confiscating land. The first thing that should happen is that Israel give Palestinians a real, viable way to redress Israeli acts. Otherwise they’ll just resort to rockets. What Israel is doing is very similar to the way the US treated Native Americans in the 19th century. Is there anybody here who would defend that? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/269 "2016-06-30T22:21:21Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Until recently I believed as you do. However, in the past year I’ve done some more research; my church has been sending people to Israel and Palestine (mostly Bethlehem) and I’ve come around to believe that Israel is the much larger problem. > > At issue is that the Palestinians have no (none, nada, zip, zero, etc.) legal recourse to illegal Israeli actions. Most of the time this involves the confiscation of Palestinian land: Palestinians are evicted and the land is (eventually) given to Israeli settlers. The Palestinians attempt to bring this to court but it is ignored. The same thing happens with soldiers: an Israeli soldier will perform some illegal act (sometimes murder) and rarely is punished. The Palestinians shooting rockets live in Gaza, not Israel itself or the WB, so this isn’t the right analysis. It is true that the Palestinians often get a raw deal in Israel. However, you are exaggerating: Palestinians use the Israeli courts all the time, and win as often as not. Israeli courts are not corrupt as you have portrayed them. Some random examples: > **[A win for labor rights of Palestinians working in Israeli settlements - +972...](https://www.972mag.com/a-win-for-labor-rights-of-palestinians-working-in-israeli-settlements/)** > > The management at a West Bank auto repair shop tried to paint Hatem Abu Ziadeh as a ‘security threat’ for organizing other workers. Palestinian workers in settlements are particularly vulnerable to labor abuses and employer retaliation. The Israeli... > **[Palestinians win Israeli court battle over barrier](https://www.dawn.com/news/264528/palestinians-win-israeli-court-battle-over-barrier)** > > JERUSALEM, Sept 4: Palestinians in a village at the centre of violent weekly protests against Israel’s controversial... [http://www.acri.org.il/en/2013/01/16/new-petition-firing-zone-918/](http://www.acri.org.il/en/2013/01/16/new-petition-firing-zone-918/) While Palestinians do win, there is no doubt that they face considerable discrimination and pressure from the authorities. However, that has nothing to do with the situation in Gaza, from whence the rockets come. In Gaza, the Israelis pulled out from the “settlements”, and handed the whole area over to the Palestinians. After that, Hamas took over from the PA in a bloody civil war. Hamas, unlike the PA, is an Islamicist organization - an offshoot off the Muslim Brotherhood. Their motives for launching rockets have nothing to do with an alleged lack of recourse by Palestinians to Israeli courts, or the fact that Israelis are encroaching on Palestinian lands with “settlements”. Those Palestinians are the ones living within Israel or on the West Bank, not those in Gaza. In Gaza, arguably the opposite occurred: Israel made concessions (that is, withdrew and removed “settlers”) and this lead to attacks. > [@](#): > > I don’t condone the terrorist actions by the groups in the area–especially the rockets–but what else would you recommend the Palestinians do that would have any hope of working? I’ve outlined my proposal above: cut a realistic deal that establishes the WB as a Palestinian state, with defined borders. This is prevented, on the Palestinian side, by demanding impossible terms (Israel must hand over Jerusalem and allow an unlimited ‘right of return’). Israel will never, can never agree to them. To extend you “Native analogy”, imagine if the native Americans, seeing the encroachment of US settlers in 1840s, in which the natives were getting crushed, demanded that the US hand over Washington, DC as a preliminary to peace negotiations. Would. Not. Happen. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile Israel is still confiscating land. The first thing that should happen is that Israel give Palestinians a real, viable way to redress Israeli acts. Otherwise they’ll just resort to rockets. As pointed out, they have that. Israeli courts. This cannot stop rocket attacks, because Hamas in Gaza doesn’t give a damn about whether Palestinians get a fair shake in Israeli courts or not. > [@](#): > > What Israel is doing is very similar to the way the US treated Native Americans in the 19th century. Is there anybody here who would defend that? Well, I would not go too far with that analogy: Israel isn’t committing genocide a la the Trail of Tears here, nor are they expelling Palestinian Israelis: if the Israelis acted like the 19th century Americans, there would be a lot fewer Palestinians left. However, using your analogy: did violent attacks on Americans actually do the native Americans any good? Strikes me all that they did was lead to massacres, given that the US had a much more powerful army. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/270 "2016-06-30T23:03:24Z")
Here’s another case: > **[Israeli Court Rules Against Illegal Settlement](https://archive.globalpolicy.org/international-justice/general-articles-on-international-justice/51429-israeli-court-rules-against-illegal-settlement.html?itemid=id)** > > Global Policy Forum is a policy watchdog that follows the work of the United Nations. We promote accountability and citizen participation in decisions on peace and security, social justice and international law. More: [Migron (Israeli settlement) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migron,_Mateh_Binyamin) > [@](#): > > In early September 2011, a force of approximately one thousand police officers destroyed three illegal permanent structures in Migron, arresting six youths among the 200 protesting settlers. The three buildings were ordered to be destroyed by the Supreme Court, following a petition issued by the Israeli human rights group Yesh Din. It is pretty clear that Israeli courts can, and do, rule against “settlers” - even when, as here, they had express government support: and the courts win in such a confrontation. By the same token, it is clear that the government continues to encourage settlers. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/271 "2016-06-30T23:06:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is true that the Palestinians often get a raw deal in Israel. However, you are exaggerating: Palestinians use the Israeli courts all the time, and win as often as not. Israeli courts are not corrupt as you have portrayed them. I disagree. It is true that on occasion Palestinians will win court cases. However they are usually ignored. Take, for example, the town of [Kafr Bir’im](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_Bir%27im). It was seized by Israel and the residents forcibly evicted (with the promise they would be eventually allowed to return). The matter made it all the way to the Israeli Supreme Court, which ruled in their favor. However, the town was then razed and much of it expropriated by Israel. This is not an isolated event. > [@Malthus](#): > > However, that has nothing to do with the situation in Gaza, from whence the rockets come. In Gaza, the Israelis pulled out from the “settlements”, and handed the whole area over to the Palestinians. After that, Hamas took over from the PA in a bloody civil war. Hamas, unlike the PA, is an Islamicist organization - an offshoot off the Muslim Brotherhood. Their motives for launching rockets have nothing to do with an alleged lack of recourse by Palestinians to Israeli courts, or the fact that Israelis are encroaching on Palestinian lands with “settlements”. Those Palestinians are the ones living within Israel or on the West Bank, not those in Gaza. I disagree. The treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel leads to despair and discontent, which manifests itself in rockets. > [@Malthus](#): > > To extend you “Native analogy”, imagine if the native Americans, seeing the encroachment of US settlers in 1840s, in which the natives were getting crushed, demanded that the US hand over Washington, DC as a preliminary to peace negotiations. Would. Not. Happen. False dichotomy. Such demands would not be an excuse for continuing to push Native Americans on to smaller and more desolate reservations. > [@Malthus](#): > > Well, I would not go too far with that analogy: Israel isn’t committing genocide a la the Trail of Tears here, nor are they expelling Palestinian Israelis: if the Israelis acted like the 19th century Americans, there would be a lot fewer Palestinians left. I strongly disagree. Palestinians are not dying in the same proportion as Native Americans (roughly 15%) but they are dying in huge numbers. Just one operation by the IDF in 2014 resulted [in over 2000 deaths](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28439404) > [@Malthus](#): > > However, using your analogy: did violent attacks on Americans actually do the native Americans any good? Strikes me all that they did was lead to massacres, given that the US had a much more powerful army. We can agree that it’s not effective. That has no bearing on the morality of Israeli (or American) policy. I appreciate that you are trying to forge a possible solution; we can work together on that. IMO it needs to start unilaterally with Israel extending real and viable justice to all Palestinians. There is no excuse not to. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/272 "2016-06-30T23:17:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Here’s another case: > > [Israeli Court Rules Against Illegal Settlement](https://www.globalpolicy.org/international-justice/general-articles-on-international-justice/51429-israeli-court-rules-against-illegal-settlement.html?itemid=id) > > More: [Migron (Israeli settlement) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migron,_Mateh_Binyamin) > > It is pretty clear that Israeli courts can, and do, rule against “settlers” - even when, as here, they had express government support: and the courts win in such a confrontation. > > By the same token, it is clear that the government continues to encourage settlers. I don’t know anything in particular about Migron so I did some digging around. According to [this recent article](http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Steinitz-Even-Palestinians-wont-benefit-from-the-needless-tragedy-of-evacuating-Amona-outpost-457963) about Migron: \*The two famous demolitions and relocations that have occurred on Netanyahu’s watch were the 2012 Migron outpost and 30 homes in the Ulpana outpost 2013. **In both cases, the land was not returned to the Palestinian owners**. Neither Israelis or Palestinians can use those tracts of land.\* (My emphasis.) Also, a high Israeli politician is still advocating for the settlers. This appears to be a situation like I mentioned earlier: sometimes the Palestinians win a court case but it’s ignored. Meanwhile some Palestinians had their property **stolen 20 years ago** and they still (apparently) don’t have it back. This is not justice. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/273 "2016-06-30T23:33:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Palestinians use the Israeli courts all the time, and win as often as not. 😕 Is that just a manner of speaking, or are you literally claiming that serious injustices against Palestinians are always brought to court, and that Palestinians involved in court cases get a decision in their favor approximately 50% of the time? Because if so, it would be good to see a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/274 "2016-07-01T00:26:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 Is that just a manner of speaking, or are you literally claiming that serious injustices against Palestinians are always brought to court, and that Palestinians involved in court cases get a decision in their favor approximately 50% of the time? > > Because if so, it would be good to see a cite for that. No, I have no idea of the relative frequency of wins vs. losses. I merely point out that the statement “At issue is that the Palestinians have no (none, nada, zip, zero, etc.) legal recourse to illegal Israeli actions” isn’t factually true: Palestinians can, and do, win in Israeli courts. So to answer you question - it was a figure of speech, not a literal frequency analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/275 "2016-07-01T00:54:18Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I disagree. It is true that on occasion Palestinians will win court cases. However they are usually ignored. Take, for example, the town of [Kafr Bir’im](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_Bir%27im). It was seized by Israel and the residents forcibly evicted (with the promise they would be eventually allowed to return). The matter made it all the way to the Israeli Supreme Court, which ruled in their favor. However, the town was then razed and much of it expropriated by Israel. This is not an isolated event. We agree that the government is heavily pushing the settlements and that this is unjust. I disagree on the notion that the Israeli courts are useless. > [@](#): > > I disagree. The treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel leads to despair and discontent, which manifests itself in rockets. The problem is that you are conflating two groups that are not the same: Palestinians in Gaza, and Palestinians in the WB. The government of the former is not subject to “settlers” seizing their lands, but launches rockets; the government of the latter is subject to settlers seizing their lands, but does not launch rockets. Therefore, it strikes me, if you want to know why rockets are launched, to examine what is different between those two groups - namely, that the government that launches rockets is Hamas. Claiming, as you do, that seizing land leads to rockets being launched strikes me as ignoring the facts. True, seizing land is part of what generates hatred, but the hatred expressed by Hamas would not be assuaged even if Israel did everything you say you want; it goes far beyond mere Israeli bad behavior. Nor is it any answer to state that Israeli bad behavior inspired Palestinians to support Hamas: in reality, that was mostly caused by Palestinian anger over PA corruption, combined with growing Islamicist sentiment (felt throughout the ME, and so not something that can be blamed on Israel). Your real argument is that Israel should do what you say you want because it is the right, the moral thing to do. > [@](#): > > False dichotomy. Such demands would not be an excuse for continuing to push Native Americans on to smaller and more desolate reservations. I am not advancing it as any such excuse, so it is you who are constructing a strawman. What I am saying, is that the current Palestinian negotiating strategy is foolishly self-destructive, in that it is handing ammo to the right wing government that wishes to dispossess them. It is aiding their enemies in their task. > [@](#): > > I strongly disagree. Palestinians are not dying in the same proportion as Native Americans (roughly 15%) but they are dying in huge numbers. Just one operation by the IDF in 2014 resulted [in over 2000 deaths](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28439404) Those were casualties incurred in a war provoked by Hamas. I strongly disagree that this compares with ‘ethnic cleansing’ practiced by the US in the 19th century in any way, shape or form. It’s a bad analogy. > [@](#): > > We can agree that it’s not effective. That has no bearing on the morality of Israeli (or American) policy. Again, I’m not arguing that might makes right. I’m arguing that might cannot be ignored in considering strategy. > [@](#): > > I appreciate that you are trying to forge a possible solution; we can work together on that. IMO it needs to start unilaterally with Israel extending real and viable justice to all Palestinians. There is no excuse not to. IMO that will make exactly zero difference to the problem of establishing a viable Palestinian state. To the extent Israel is committing injustices, it should stop doing so simply because they are unjust; the notion that this is necessary, or even will, advance the negotiations is a complete fallacy. It may demonstrate goodwill, and that may or may not help; it should be pointed out that part of the reason we are in this mess is that the Israeli left became somewhat discredited because previous attempts to generate goodwill by unilateral Israeli actions _did not help_. The Israeli Right naturally began to state its theory, with some plausibility, that goodwill gestures are pointless (and so Israel should just take what it wants and wall off the rest). My own position: doing what is right should be done, but not with any expectation it will advance negotiations. Negotiations should be pursued, even if neither party has done what is right. The two issues should not ne linked, because each side has massive grievances and can and will use them to torpedo negotiations if one side insists that the other prove their morality in advance; and the biggest losers, should that happen, will be the Palestinians, who are comparatively powerless. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/276 "2016-07-01T01:17:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I merely point out that the statement “At issue is that the Palestinians have no (none, nada, zip, zero, etc.) legal recourse to illegal Israeli actions” isn’t factually true: Palestinians can, and do, win in Israeli courts. > > So to answer you question - it was a figure of speech, not a literal frequency analysis. Okay, thanks. But ISTM that what **Deeg** was mostly referring to was the specific issue of “confiscation of Palestinian land”. And AFAICT none of your counterexamples provides evidence of Palestinians actually having any effective recourse in such a case. As **Deeg** noted, the Palestinians dispossessed in the Mignon case still haven’t been reinstated. Your other examples involve labor rights of Palestinian workers (not a land-confiscation issue), the rerouting of a section of the West Bank security fence (also not a land-confiscation issue), and a 2013 temporary injunction prohibiting the forcible expulsion of Palestinians from Firing Zone 918 (which [as of this past February is going ahead anyway](http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-razes-palestinian-homes-in-west-bank-firing-zone/)). > [@](#): > > Israeli forces began destroying dozens of structures Tuesday morning in two Palestinian villages south of Hebron, after the buildings were declared illegal by the body that oversees civilian Israeli activities in the territories. […] > > “The buildings being demolished in Firing Zone 918 were illegally constructed,” COGAT said in a statement. […] > > Firing Zone 918 encompasses approximately 115 square miles and was declared a restricted military zone in the 1970s. > > In 1999 evacuation orders were issued to inhabitants of the villages in the area, sparking a long legal battle. […] > > The Defense Ministry has declared that the structures do not have the appropriate permits. > > Israel’s Supreme Court ruled in May that the Civil Administration had the right to demolish Palestinian homes in the area because they had been built without permission. > > Residents argue that they had no choice but to build illegally because the Civil Administration rarely grants permits to Palestinians in the West Bank’s Area C, which is under Israeli civil and military control as per the 1993 Oslo peace accords. I would be interested to learn of **any** case where territory in the West Bank acquired for Israeli settlements or military purposes by displacing Palestinian residents has subsequently been officially restored to the former residents’ control and use. I don’t know of any such instance. As you note, it’s not true to say that no Palestinian can **ever** win **any** case in an Israeli court. But when the issue involves control of land from which West Bank Palestinians have been displaced, ISTM that the distribution of legal outcomes is at best very, very, very, very one-sided. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/277 "2016-07-01T02:19:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > . . . After that, Hamas took over from the PA in a bloody civil war. . . . I think the civil war was in the West Bank, whereas Gaza switched from PA to Hamas governance over by an election. (Of course, once Hamas got in, further elections were never permitted to occur…) ---
**Author:** ![Commodore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Commodore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commodore)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/278 "2016-07-01T03:02:37Z")
One thing could stop all the problems. The Jews take back all the land they claim as theirs 2000 years ago or pack up and go. The thing is they are not going to go and the others are not going to go. So there is the problem, it will never be resolved ever. War will not resolve anything, it never truly has. There is only one way, that is to follow and abide in the Lord of lords and King of kings, problem solved. He is the Light of the world that has no darkness, he is the Truth and the Way, He is our Lord and Saviour. I have to wash even the dust off my sandals with such who oppose the Lord Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/279 "2016-07-01T03:23:00Z")
Well, that escalated quickly. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/280 "2016-07-01T03:26:59Z")
> [@Commodore](#): > > There is only one way, that is to follow and abide in the Lord of lords and King of kings, problem solved. Great! Can you give some examples of dispossessed Palestinians who converted to Christianity and got their land and/or homes back? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=15)