# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/321 "2016-07-03T05:48:05Z")
> [@Danja](#): > > I would not trust someone who claims that there has “[never been a single instance of anti-Semitism in Iranian society](http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-iranian-mp-lauds-countrys-religious-freedom/),” Well, neither would I, but surely you don’t think I was suggesting that the **only** reason to believe that Jews in Iran are doing okay is because of this one guy’s say-so. ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/322 "2016-07-03T06:57:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, neither would I, but surely you don’t think I was suggesting that the **only** reason to believe that Jews in Iran are doing okay is because of this one guy’s say-so. Quoting the man indicates that you view him as a reliable source. In any case, “doing ok” is a relative term. They’re definitely doing better in Iran than in surrounding countries, but imagine living in a place where over half of the people around you believe that you and your kin are responsible for the world’s conflicts (and unlike many other nations, [the prevalence of the opinion does not decrease in younger generations](http://global100.adl.org/#country/iran/2015)). That’s not a situation in which I would like to live, personally. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/323 "2016-07-03T18:26:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, Iranians aren’t Arabs, of course, but if by “the arab world” you mean “the Middle East in general”, the Jews of Iran [seem to strongly identify as **both** Jewish and Iranian](http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/02/19/387265766/irans-jews-its-our-home-and-we-plan-to-stay). It is very, very easy to oversell the notion that Jews in Iran are doing OK. The actual facts are somewhat equivocal. Iran, unlike many other ME countries, did not expel its Jewish population. Nor does the government engage in anti-Jewish pogroms for their own sake. Nonetheless, 95% of the Jewish population of Iran emigrated (many to Israel), with immigration accelerating after the Iranian Revolution. The small minority of the population that chose to stay, does so on the express understanding that any agitation against Islamic supremacy or official discrimination, let alone expressions of sympathy for Israel or the outside world, will be met with charges of spying for Israel - leading to a revolutionary show trial. So if asked, they naturally say that the authorities in Iran treat them benevolently and that Israel and the West are bad, bad, bad. [http://archive.adl.org/backgrounders/iranian\_jews.html](http://archive.adl.org/backgrounders/iranian_jews.html) Therefore, there is no reason to take such statements at face value: > [@](#): > > Iranian Jews might be related to their desire for survival and led to their overselling of their anti-Israel positions. Their response to the questions regarding Israel have been outright denial of Israel or staying quiet. An example of the dilemma of Iranian Jews can be observed in this example :“We hear the ayatollah say that Israel was cooperating with the Shah and SAVAK, and we would be fools to say we support Israel. So we just keep quiet about it… Maybe it will work out. Anyway, what can we do? This is our home.” From: Religious Minorities in Iran, Eliz Sanasarian, Cambridge University Press, 2000, page 150. A rather more telling statistic is the number of Jews actually left in Iran: in 2012, it was down to 8,700 or so. There were around 150,000 after WW2. The remnant exists on sufferance, making it difficult for outsiders to judge their actual condition. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/324 "2016-07-04T04:04:26Z")
> [@Danja](#): > > […] but imagine living in a place where over half of the people around you believe that you and your kin are responsible for the world’s conflicts (and unlike many other nations, [the prevalence of the opinion does not decrease in younger generations](http://global100.adl.org/#country/iran/2015)). That’s not a situation in which I would like to live, personally. Well, it’s hard for me personally to imagine, but I suspect a lot of Israeli Arabs are quite familiar with it. Which, if you’ll recall, was the context in which **Salvor** asked for comparisons with Jewish minorities in “the arab world” (or more broadly, the Middle East in general). ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/325 "2016-07-04T04:19:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is very, very easy to oversell the notion that Jews in Iran are doing OK. > > The actual facts are somewhat equivocal. > > Iran, unlike many other ME countries, did not expel its Jewish population. Nor does the government engage in anti-Jewish pogroms for their own sake. Nonetheless, 95% of the Jewish population of Iran emigrated (many to Israel), with immigration accelerating after the Iranian Revolution. > > The small minority of the population that chose to stay, does so on the express understanding that any agitation against Islamic supremacy or official discrimination, let alone expressions of sympathy for Israel or the outside world, will be met with charges of spying for Israel - leading to a revolutionary show trial. So if asked, they naturally say that the authorities in Iran treat them benevolently and that Israel and the West are bad, bad, bad. > > [http://archive.adl.org/backgrounders/iranian\_jews.html](http://archive.adl.org/backgrounders/iranian_jews.html) > > Therefore, there is no reason to take such statements at face value: > > From: Religious Minorities in Iran, Eliz Sanasarian, Cambridge University Press, 2000, page 150. > > A rather more telling statistic is the number of Jews actually left in Iran: in 2012, it was down to 8,700 or so. There were around 150,000 after WW2. The remnant exists on sufferance, making it difficult for outsiders to judge their actual condition. very well said. I’m amazed how at some “progressives” conveniently ignore that and buy Iranian propaganda; the regime that hangs gays, stones adultresses, forces veils, very unprogressive things. ---
**Author:** ![Commodore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Commodore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commodore)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/326 "2016-07-04T07:07:37Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > But Jesus can’t or won’t come back until there’s a devastating nuclear war in the area we’re talking about here. So in the case of the Second Coming, war is the only way to resolve it. > > Then again, there’s nothing Jesus can’t do… I mean He could show up tomorrow and if He’s as great as His followers believe everyone in the world ought to lay down arms right then and there. But that doesn’t seem to be an option so that means Jesus wants or needs all these people to die. Genocide would certainly fix the issue. Is that what the Savior wishes for His Chosen People? The so called Jews should not even be there. There has always been true Jews living in Palestine. The chosen people = the Jews = the people of God, it’s not a race ! The so called Zionist are much like the Nazi’s, only the Nazi’s wanted there own lands back that they lost 20 years before the war and the so called Jews are on about a 2000 year gap :dubious: if not insane. The Jew lost the Land because God took it from them, they were doing the wrong thing by the God of Israel ! If the Jews did not disobey God they would not of got kicked out of the land of Israel. Now how can they come back ? and still be disobeying God ? Jesus Christ is the King of Israel ! The Jews disregarded there neighbours, looking down on them, they were not nice or helpful and never had the keys to deal with them people, only true Christianity has that. Two wrongs don’t make a right. This crap about anti-Semitic, the fact is both are Semites. We hear about all this PC crap of people saying that someone is anti Semitic :o how stupid ! people are anti something about a point on another’s religion, so what ! all people have a right to there own opinion and for big brother PC to come along and dictate that you can’t voice your opinion that’s the madness of just fascist moronic twerps that can’t see past there nose. I know my family tree back to 1338 and someone comes up to me bagging something about my racial background, most likely I may agree with them on the points that are true or educate them on a point they don’t understand and if they want to be a dolt about something, do you think I could care less, not at all ! it’s like water off a ducks back. I think it’s people with an inferiority complex that they have problems with it, well that’s just to bad, they just have to suck it up and get on with reality, but they could point out something that they are proud of and even point out what’s not so good with the now of your generation or culture, and that’s all fine with me that they have pride in them self. PC only works to destroy all culture. ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/327 "2016-07-04T07:25:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, it’s hard for me personally to imagine, but I suspect a lot of Israeli Arabs are quite familiar with it. > > Which, if you’ll recall, was the context in which **Salvor** asked for comparisons with Jewish minorities in “the arab world” (or more broadly, the Middle East in general). I suspect otherwise. I’m sure most Israelis would blame the Palestinians for their local conflict, but I would be shocked to learn that any but the most right wing would blame them for the world’s problems, which is what the ADL survey indicated. That’s the difference between a political/territorial clash and a more fundamental hatred or disregard. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/328 "2016-07-04T08:00:30Z")
> [@Commodore](#): > > The so called Jews should not even be there. > > There has always been true Jews living in Palestine. > > The chosen people = the Jews = the people of God, it’s not a race ! > > The so called Zionist are much like the Nazi’s, only the Nazi’s wanted there own lands back that they lost 20 years before the war and the so called Jews are on about a 2000 year gap :dubious: if not insane. > > The Jew lost the Land because God took it from them, they were doing the wrong thing by the God of Israel ! > > If the Jews did not disobey God they would not of got kicked out of the land of Israel. > Now how can they come back ? and still be disobeying God ? > > Jesus Christ is the King of Israel ! > > The Jews disregarded there neighbours, looking down on them, they were not nice or helpful and never had the keys to deal with them people, only true Christianity has that. > > Two wrongs don’t make a right. > This crap about anti-Semitic, the fact is both are Semites. > > We hear about all this PC crap of people saying that someone is anti Semitic :o how stupid ! people are anti something about a point on another’s religion, so what ! all people have a right to there own opinion and for big brother PC to come along and dictate that you can’t voice your opinion that’s the madness of just fascist moronic twerps that can’t see past there nose. > > I know my family tree back to 1338 and someone comes up to me bagging something about my racial background, most likely I may agree with them on the points that are true or educate them on a point they don’t understand and if they want to be a dolt about something, do you think I could care less, not at all ! it’s like water off a ducks back. > I think it’s people with an inferiority complex that they have problems with it, well that’s just to bad, they just have to suck it up and get on with reality, but they could point out something that they are proud of and even point out what’s not so good with the now of your generation or culture, and that’s all fine with me that they have pride in them self. > PC only works to destroy all culture. If that’s not satire, I can’t decide if u sound like a communist, an Islamist, an alt-righter, or all three ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/329 "2016-07-04T08:11:15Z")
Nah, just an old-school fundie Christian Jew hater. It’s refreshing to know that there are still a few of them still out there. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/330 "2016-07-04T12:37:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nah, just an old-school fundie Christian Jew hater. It’s refreshing to know that there are still a few of them still out there. Alt-right, u mean. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/331 "2016-07-04T13:02:53Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Alt-right, u mean. What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/332 "2016-07-04T13:17:11Z")
> [@Commodore](#): > > The so called Jews should not even be there. > > There has always been true Jews living in Palestine. > > The chosen people = the Jews = the people of God, it’s not a race ! > > The so called Zionist are much like the Nazi’s, only the Nazi’s wanted there own lands back that they lost 20 years before the war and the so called Jews are on about a 2000 year gap :dubious: if not insane. > > The Jew lost the Land because God took it from them, they were doing the wrong thing by the God of Israel ! > > If the Jews did not disobey God they would not of got kicked out of the land of Israel. > Now how can they come back ? and still be disobeying God ? > > Jesus Christ is the King of Israel ! > > The Jews disregarded there neighbours, looking down on them, they were not nice or helpful and never had the keys to deal with them people, only true Christianity has that. > > Two wrongs don’t make a right. > This crap about anti-Semitic, the fact is both are Semites. > > We hear about all this PC crap of people saying that someone is anti Semitic :o how stupid ! people are anti something about a point on another’s religion, so what ! all people have a right to there own opinion and for big brother PC to come along and dictate that you can’t voice your opinion that’s the madness of just fascist moronic twerps that can’t see past there nose. > > I know my family tree back to 1338 and someone comes up to me bagging something about my racial background, most likely I may agree with them on the points that are true or educate them on a point they don’t understand and if they want to be a dolt about something, do you think I could care less, not at all ! it’s like water off a ducks back. > I think it’s people with an inferiority complex that they have problems with it, well that’s just to bad, they just have to suck it up and get on with reality, but they could point out something that they are proud of and even point out what’s not so good with the now of your generation or culture, and that’s all fine with me that they have pride in them self. > PC only works to destroy all culture. You got some foamy spittle right there on your chin. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/333 "2016-07-04T13:17:30Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Or why don’t Palestinians ditch the “right of return” (deprived for those displaced by the India/Pakistan partition, Lausanne in Greece/Turkey, etc.) and then there could be a Palestinian state in the West Bank? Because they don’t actually want a “Palestinian State.” What they want is for there not to be a Jewish State. As you point out, Gaza & J & S used to be occupied by Egypt and Jordan. At that time, where was the OUTRAGE that “Palestine” was being occupied by Egypt and Jordan? There was none. In fact, before 1967, the PLO made it clear that they were NOT claiming these areas. Their sights were set on the Jewish controlled areas and only on the Jewish controlled areas. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/334 "2016-07-04T13:25:08Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That is an absurd “solution” that solves nothing. In any event, the Arabs would never ever accept it. In discussing the one-state solution, people tend to focus on the fact that Arabs would get more of a say in Israeli affairs. But they tend to ignore the fact that Israeli Jews would end up with a majority say in Arab affairs. Which means no more Hamas; no more recognition of “Palestine” at the UN; no more treating of Abbas and his cronies as diplomatic dignitaries; no more anti-Jewish incitement in Arab schools; the millions of dollars in aid to the “Palestinian Authority” would come under direct Israeli control; etc. > [@](#): > > The core problem in the Israel/Palestine conflict is that Palestinians (or at least, the people the Palestinians choose to support as their representatives) really, really want to kill Jews. They want it more than anything else in the world, to the point where they will actively work against their own best interests if it means they can fire more artillery at Israeli cities. I would have to agree. In understanding the conflict, people need to understand that the Palestinian Arabs don’t actually want self-determination and don’t actually want their own state. What they want is for there not to be a Jewish State in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/335 "2016-07-04T13:28:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, it’s hard for me personally to imagine, but I suspect a lot of Israeli Arabs are quite familiar with it. > > Which, if you’ll recall, was the context in which **Salvor** asked for comparisons with Jewish minorities in “the arab world” (or more broadly, the Middle East in general). I thought the issue was which minority community was “thriving” in comparison with Israeli Arabs. Iran isn’t a very good entry as an example of comparative “thriving”. Population of Iranian Jews in 1948: 150,000 Population now: 8,700 Population of Arabs in what is now Israel, 1948: 156,000 (down from 950,000 before the '48 War) Population now: 1,413,500 One can see that, despite the '48 War and its disasters, the population of Arabs in Israel is “thriving”, while that of Jews in Iran is not. As of 1948, both populations were of approximately equal size. Today, the population of Arab Israelis is approximately 162 times as large. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/336 "2016-07-04T13:42:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Convince me to give people who utterly hate me power over my life. Convince me that I should allow my country to turn into another Syria, Lebanon or Iraq. Knock yourself out. It’s funny you should say that because it looks like you are talking to the guy who predicted back in 2011 that Libya would “almost certainly” end up with a “friendly, secular, democratic regime” as a result of the Arab Spring. Cite: > **[Obama to Palestinians: "No short cuts"](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=625064)** > > Obama, you spineless, whining picture boy. You may be POTUS but only in form. You work from the script. And the script was written before you got elected. You just made sure you’ll follow the script best. What a disgrace to the office and the... (Post #58) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/337 "2016-07-04T13:48:25Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > This conflict isn’t going to end until one side is exterminated. And the source of that extermination may very well be the Sun expanding and making the Earth uninhabitable. Both sides want the exact same pieces of land, and are unwilling to compromise. That’s not true at all. For example, the original UN Partition Plan was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs. Since then, the Jews have made numerous peace proposals, all of which have been rejected by the Arabs. Note also that Israel unilaterally left Gaza. Why would they do that if they wanted the “exact same pieces of land”? The answer is that they do not. Israel just wants to be left alone and the Arabs want there not to be an Israel. One side is willing to compromise and the other is not. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/338 "2016-07-04T14:58:38Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Definitely on Palestinian lands. Would you mind defining “Palestinian lands” for me? i.e. 1. Where are the boundaries of “Palestinian lands”? 2. How did those lands come to be “Palestinian lands”? 3. If the Arabs successfully ethnically cleanse an area of Jews, does it become “Palestinian Land” forever? So for example, when the Arabs ethnically cleansed Hebron, eastern Jerusalem, and Gaza City of Jews, did those areas become “Palestinian lands” forever? Also, is there such thing as “Jewish lands”? If so, where are they? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/339 "2016-07-04T15:46:43Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > If that’s not satire, I can’t decide if u sound like a communist, an Islamist, an alt-righter, or all three Its worse then that, hes an Aussie. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/340 "2016-07-04T16:21:17Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Both sides need to make concessions What concessions should the Palestinian Arabs make, in your view? > [@](#): > > and the first one is that Israel needs to stop taking Palestinian land As I asked in my last post, you need to define the phrase “Palestinian land.” For example, do you consider Hebron to be “Palestinian land”? If so, was it “Palestinian land” before the Jews were ethnically cleansed from it back in the 1930s? Now that Jews have returned to Hebron, is it still “Palestinian land”? Or is it Jewish land now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=18)