# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/381 "2016-07-07T01:04:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Possibly the worst idea anyone has floated since wooden barbecue grills. Death in very large numbers, followed by retaliations in very large numbers, possibly dragging the world’s superpowers into an escalating war… > > This is stupider than eating peas with a toilet plunger. but for people who have no problem with murdering Olympians, hijacking planes, and popularizing suicide attacks, of course they want them to have nukes. Pure lunacy. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/382 "2016-07-07T06:18:39Z")
This clip perfectly encapsulates why there won’t be peace for the foreseeable future. It's been out there for awhile and I'm sure many have seen it already, but near the end a hard line right wing Jewish speaker asks a basic question that cuts through the obfuscations and murkiness of positions. She was clearly anti Jew, and when prompted to confirm that, she took the bait and admitted it for all to see. Question. What % of the Palestinian population has her attitude? If I was an Israeli, if it was anything more than a tiny fraction, I would try my best to keep such people from having any power, and I would NEVER allow a right of return to allow that fifth/sixth-infinite column within the nation to dissolve it into dust. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/383 "2016-07-07T14:20:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So it seems that they are entitled to a right of return (a right of return to Palestine is not really relevant AFAIC). IIRC Israel made offers to buy off the Palestinian right of return, was the offer not generous enough to satisfy their honor? > > For the same reason that there wouldn’t be middle east outrage if the Palestinians were treating Israelis the way Israelis were treating the Palestinians. > > I am also surprised by the lack of outrage at Turkish treatment of Kurds (and Cypriots and Armenians). If America started to restrict immigration and promote suffering to maintain our Christian identity, people would think we were assholes too. > > And the Palestinians negotiated with Menachem Begin, neh? > > Yes I have been involved in several types of negotiations and what you say is not exactly true. Sometimes negotiating means you giving me something of yours in exchange for me giving you something of mine. Like when I negotiate the terms of a merger or asset acquisition. Other times negotiating means pleading to a misdemeanor instead of standing trial on a felony. Still other times it means trying to achieve a result that resembles fair or what a court would call fair. > > This is one of the fundamental differences of perspectives that I see between the two sides. Israel thinks that because it is in a strong negotiating position, it should get more. After all, who is to say what is fair? Palestinians think that there are international laws that say they are entitled to things like the right of return and they are willing to see their grandchildren’s grandchildren live in squalor to see justice be done. > > In court. It happens all the time in court with rule of law. The Palestinians think they are entitled to that shit but there is no rule of law in international relations and if Israel insists on might makes right then their claim on Israel will only last as long as they are mighty. > > It is if you think the dealership stole the car from you. > > Or give them nukes. Heh, we are actually in agreement on most points (not the nukes thing though :D). The Palestinians tend to see their position as one of legal rights, and you can’t bargain away your legal rights, particularly not on behalf of other people. So each individual Palestinian has an inalienable “right of return” to his or her ancestral village, and there is nothing a Palestinian negotiator can do about it. Here’s another example of the popular Palestinian approach, worth reading in its entirety: > **[Palestinian right of return is feasible](https://electronicintifada.net/content/palestinian-right-return-feasible/5608)** > > May marked the 57th anniversary of al-Nakba (The Catastrophe), when Jews declared their state in Palestine and thousands of Palestinians were expelled from their homeland. Today, the Palestinian refugees number more than six million, comprising... In summary: the right of return in inalienable, it cannot be bargained away. The author even created a detailed atlas of pre-1948 Palestine so that the Palestinian refugees can, at some point in the future, “re-create” Palestine down to the last well and farm, after Israel is gone: > [@](#): > > Before 1948, you could see the names of the wells, rivers, wadis (valleys), and of special places, historical events and local events. [The atlas] is so detailed that the karm, or garden, of an individual can be identified. So that is one purpose. > > The other purpose is looking ahead. This atlas should be the blueprint of a future Palestine - when Palestinians return and the young generation who have not seen their homes but heard about, it can navigate through it and find where their villages were and where their lands were, so they can reconstruct Palestine. The Israelis tend to see the issues in terms of tit-for-tat bargaining, like what they did with Egypt: you (meaning the leader of the Egyptian nation, acting on behalf of the country called Egypt) get this or that, and in return, you make a peace deal. It is this fundamental difference in perspective, and not the relative rights and wrongs of each side (an argument which, lord knows, has and will go round and round forever without any resolution), which I think more than anything else convinces me that the Palestinian position is unsound. The Israelis cannot be expected to bargain away their existence, particularly where they have infinitely superior bargaining power. It is no answer to claim the creation of the Israeli state was somehow “illegal”, because there is no court in which such an illegality is likely to be litigated that is capable of handing down a “sentence” of complete ethnic cleansing for Israelis - which of course would be required, for the above-noted dream of recreating a Palestine down to the last village well to be realized. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/384 "2016-07-07T14:45:48Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > how bout the Palestinians stop acting like radical Islamic losers? Some might say that perhaps the hard core zionists might want to stop acting like fucktards. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/385 "2016-07-07T14:47:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Some might say that perhaps the hard core zionists might want to stop acting like fucktards. Why? It seems to be working out pretty well for them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/386 "2016-07-07T14:49:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Possibly the worst idea anyone has floated since wooden barbecue grills. Death in very large numbers, followed by retaliations in very large numbers, possibly dragging the world’s superpowers into an escalating war… > > This is stupider than eating peas with a toilet plunger. Of course it is stupid. If you want something more realistic, then I would say that Israel was backed by America during the cold war and was able to withstand aggression that was at least in part supported by the soviets. If the arab nations can get their act together and if the Chinese or Russians decide to take sides, do you still think that US support is not really that important to Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/387 "2016-07-07T14:58:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, we are actually in agreement on most points (not the nukes thing though :D). > > The Palestinians tend to see their position as one of legal rights, and you can’t bargain away your legal rights, particularly not on behalf of other people. So each individual Palestinian has an inalienable “right of return” to his or her ancestral village, and there is nothing a Palestinian negotiator can do about it. > > Here’s another example of the popular Palestinian approach, worth reading in its entirety: > > [Palestinian right of return is feasible | The Electronic Intifada](https://electronicintifada.net/content/palestinian-right-return-feasible/5608) > > In summary: the right of return in inalienable, it cannot be bargained away. The author even created a detailed atlas of pre-1948 Palestine so that the Palestinian refugees can, at some point in the future, “re-create” Palestine down to the last well and farm, after Israel is gone: > > The Israelis tend to see the issues in terms of tit-for-tat bargaining, like what they did with Egypt: you (meaning the leader of the Egyptian nation, acting on behalf of the country called Egypt) get this or that, and in return, you make a peace deal. > > It is this fundamental difference in perspective, and not the relative rights and wrongs of each side (an argument which, lord knows, has and will go round and round forever without any resolution), which I think more than anything else convinces me that the Palestinian position is unsound. The Israelis cannot be expected to bargain away their existence, particularly where they have infinitely superior bargaining power. It is no answer to claim the creation of the Israeli state was somehow “illegal”, because there is no court in which such an illegality is likely to be litigated that is capable of handing down a “sentence” of complete ethnic cleansing for Israelis - which of course would be required, for the above-noted dream of recreating a Palestine down to the last village well to be realized. I agree that there has to be some concessions made by the Palestinians. In their mind, they want their day in court where they think they will win on everything. The problem is that their day in court may occur so far in the future that the value of that win is almost useless. Instead they are more likely in the position of a victim confronting a criminal that has been indicted of a capital offense that would result in the death penalty if convicted. The plea bargain cannot be “we will execute you by electrocution rather than hanging” The plea bargain must either be tolerable to the criminal or you have to wait until you have your day in court… 70 years and counting. That’s not to say that Israel has to agree to anything that is tolerable but the Palestinians must at least offer something that would be tolerable. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/388 "2016-07-07T15:01:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Why? It seems to be working out pretty well for them. They have a lot of chickens flying around. They may come home to roost one day. Aren’t you tired of that sword of Damocles hanging over Israel? “Does not Dionysius seem to have made it sufficiently clear that there can be nothing happy for the person over whom some fear always looms?” Isn’t there a tremendous amount of value to putting this issue to rest? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/389 "2016-07-07T21:22:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > On the one hand, Israel should cease seizing Palestinian lands for “settlements”. On that we agree. > > On the other hand, you’d make Palestinian participation in negotiations contingent on Israel doing that _first_. That is an absurdity, leading to a wholly perverse result. No, that’s not what I said (or what I meant to say). Israel should not require Palestinians to negotiate for them (Israel) to stop stealing land and set up a viable justice system. > [@Malthus](#): > > The ONLY thing that can practically guarantee Israeli hard-liners cease bad behaviors such as seizing Palestinian lands, is for Palestine to gain some sort of sovereignty over its own lands – and the only way to do that, is to either defeat Israel in war (not gonna happen) or for Israel to agree to it via peace negotiations. The US could stop settlements if we made a serious move to link foreign aid to the cessation of settlements (and reform the justice system). GHW Bush did so in the early 90’s and some settlements were abandoned. Sadly Clinton did not keep up the pressure. That is, in fact, my strongest opinion: the US should stop funding Israel while it is building settlements and oppressing the Palestinians. If the money spigot was turned off (gradually; I’m not looking for a collapse of Israeli society) then we’d see serious change in Israel. I have written letters to my representatives; I urge other like-minded Dopers to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/390 "2016-07-07T22:22:50Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > No, that’s not what I said (or what I meant to say). Israel should not require Palestinians to negotiate for them (Israel) to stop stealing land and set up a viable justice system. That doesn’t make sense: the negotiations are for a Palestinian state. Once achieved, the Israelis would be in no position to seize Palestinian land, because that land would be in a real country with an actual border. It would be up to the Palestinian justice system to determine such issues - if Israelis attempted to take land after the negotiations concluded, that would be like Mexicans attempting to take land in Texas: it could not be done. In short, the only thing that allows Israelis to take Palestinian lands is that Palestine isn’t a real state - so there is nothing to stop them. That’s exactly the issue (Palestine being a real state) that the negotiations are attempting to resolve. Once resolved, the “Israelis deciding to steal random bits of land” problem will be solved, permanently - it could no longer be done. > [@](#): > > The US could stop settlements if we made a serious move to link foreign aid to the cessation of settlements (and reform the justice system). GHW Bush did so in the early 90’s and some settlements were abandoned. Sadly Clinton did not keep up the pressure. > > That is, in fact, my strongest opinion: the US should stop funding Israel while it is building settlements and oppressing the Palestinians. If the money spigot was turned off (gradually; I’m not looking for a collapse of Israeli society) then we’d see serious change in Israel. I have written letters to my representatives; I urge other like-minded Dopers to do the same. With respect, whatever one thinks of Israeli actions, this waaaay overstates the impact of US subsidies on the Israeli economy. This appears a common trope in such discussions - that without US subsidies, Israel would collapse, that Israel is totally dependent on US welfare, and thus that the US has the whip hand (if only it would use it). Totally false, and worth refuting in detail with facts. US subsidies is mostly in the form of “tied” military aid: it amounts to some $3 billion per year (not counting loan guarantees), 75% of which must be “spent” in the US. In effect, the vast majority is a subsidy to the US arms industry. > **[Israel–United States relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations)** > > The United States of America was the first country to recognize the nascent State of Israel. Since the 1960s, the American Israeli relationship has grown into a mutually beneficial alliance in economic, strategic and military aspects. The United States has provided strong support for Israel. It has played a key role in the promotion of good relations between Israel and its neighbouring Arab states—notably Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt—while holding off hostility from countries such as Syria and Ir Is... Contrast that with the size of the Israeli military budget. In 2015, Israel spent $16.5 billion, which amounted to 6.2% of GDP. > **[List of countries with highest military expenditures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)** > > This is a list of countries with the highest military expenditure in a given year. Military expenditure figures are presented in United States dollars based on either constant or current exchange rates. > The first list is based on the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) fact sheet, which includes a list of the world's top 40 military spenders as of 2023, based on current market exchange rates. > The second list is based on the 2024 edition of The Military Balance, published ... The US subsidy is around 18% of the current yearly Israeli military budget. Not by any means an insignificant amount, gives the US a certain amount of leverage, but it is utterly absurd to argue -as many do, including it would appear you, from the care you state is necessary to avoid “a collapse of Israeli society” - that this funding is totally vital to Israel’s very survival. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/391 "2016-07-07T22:36:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Some might say that perhaps the hard core zionists might want to stop acting like fucktards. Umm Israel doesn’t characterize itself with rewarding self-exploders (who by definition escape all responsibility by being dead but whose families get money and think they’re with 72 virgins), international terror networks and plane hijackings, both of which are nothing aside from SAVAGERY. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/392 "2016-07-07T22:45:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That doesn’t make sense: the negotiations are for a Palestinian state. Stopping an immoral and illegal version of oppression doesn’t make sense? It should be ended immediately regardless of negotiations for a Palestinian state. > [@Malthus](#): > > The US subsidy is around 18% of the current yearly Israeli military budget. Not by any means an insignificant amount, gives the US a certain amount of leverage, but it is utterly absurd to argue -as many do, including it would appear you, from the care you state is necessary to avoid “a collapse of Israeli society” - that this funding is totally vital to Israel’s very survival. I’ll concede that “collapse” for a is too strong a word for a throw-away line but if the US immediately stopped the influx of money then Israel would likely experience a recession. $3B is a big carrot and I intend to (try to) use it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/393 "2016-07-08T00:35:55Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I don’t have to answer those questions because Israel’s Supreme Court already has: Well, I’m trying to learn what you mean by the phrase. From your post, I take it that to you “Palestinian land” means any privately owned land which is owned by Palestinian Arabs, as determined by the Israeli court system. Is that correct? > [@](#): > > If you think you are a better authority than the Israeli supreme court then we have nothing further to discuss. I’m happy to accept the Israeli court system’s decisions as conclusively determinative for purposes of this discussion. From your post, I take it that to you “Palestinian land” means any privately owned land which is owned by Palestinian Arabs, as determined by the Israeli court system. Is that correct? And by the way, you didn’t answer my other question: What concessions should the Palestinian Arabs make, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/394 "2016-07-08T14:12:36Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Stopping an immoral and illegal version of oppression doesn’t make sense? It should be ended immediately regardless of negotiations for a Palestinian state. That isn’t what I was saying. I was saying your point doesn’t make sense, not that ceasing taking Palestinian lands doesn’t make sense. To reiterate: your point, as far as I can understand it, or at least the latest version of it, is that Israel should not require Palestinians as part of the peace negotiations “to negotiate for them (Israel) to stop stealing land and set up a viable justice system”. The lands Israel is accused of stealing and of failing to provide a viable justice system for, are lands physically situated in the West Bank. In short, these are the lands that are the subject of peace negotiations, the outcome of which is supposed to be a “two state solution” - that is, at the end of the negotiations, there will be two states - Israel and Palestine - with fixed, agreed borders. Once that negotiation is concluded, there is no way that hardline right wing Zionists can “steal” lands on the WB - these lands will, perforce, be inside “Palestine” and across the Israeli/Palestinian border. Such infiltrators would simply be arrested, presumably by the Palestinian police, and shown the border. That’s what being a country _means_. Land disputes inside what is now “Palestine” will have nothing to do with the Israeli justice system - they will be subject to the Palestinian justice system. This, too, is part of what it means to be a country - you have your own laws. This is why your point makes no sense. If the negotiations succeed, such disputes all become moot. It would be an absurdity for Israel to take the position “oh and by the way, once you get your own country, our guys can still come at take bits of it when they feel like, okay?”. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/395 "2016-07-08T15:13:42Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Question. What % of the Palestinian population has her attitude? It doesn’t really matter because whatever that percentage is, they have a lot of influence over the agenda. A more interesting question is what percentage of the Palestinian Arabs (or their supporters) believe that the Palestinian Arabs should make painful concessions for the sake of peace and are willing to advocate for this publicly. I would have to guess it’s pretty minuscule. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/396 "2016-07-08T15:31:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It doesn’t really matter because whatever that percentage is, they have a lot of influence over the agenda. > > A more interesting question is what percentage of the Palestinian Arabs (or their supporters) believe that the Palestinian Arabs should make painful concessions for the sake of peace and are willing to advocate for this publicly. I would have to guess it’s pretty minuscule. They do exist. Unfortunately, they are a minority. Here’s an example of a realistic discussion about what to do with the “right of return”: > [@](#): > > Accordingly, with a realistic solution becoming more possible than ever, the Right of Return became a highly relevant topic for discussion. However, the reality of Israel’s existence and its concern about staying a Jewish state, represent an obstacle to the practical application of the Right of Return for the 1948 Palestinian refugee. Yet knowing the Israeli position in that respect, does not entail that Palestinians give up their claim for return in advance. One must distinguish between, on the one hand, the “right of return” as a principle, and on the other hand, exercising that right by literally returning to Palestine as a national homeland, and to that same home, piece of land, or grove which a certain Palestinian owned before 1948, as a private individual property. > > The circumstances under which the Palestinian refugees have lived since 1948, and the suffering which they have endured and are still enduring, have forced many of them to view their return as the acquisition of national independence and dignity, and not necessarily as a literal return. In other words, Palestinians continue to believe that they are entitled to their claim to the Right of Return, but they are prepared to bring it to the negotiating table. This claim can be satisfied either through the actual return of a mutually acceptable number of refugees, or a symbolic number of them, or through compensation, or even through the implementation of any other option agreed upon through the negotiations on a comprehensive settlement to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. > **[PIJ.ORG: The Palestinian Right of Return: a Realistic Approach By Ziad ...](https://pij.org/articles/749)** > > An independent publication, with an often critical voice, the Palestine-Israel Journal provides background material and in-depth analysis of various aspects of the conflict from the perspective of both sides, thus helping to shed light on the complex... Unfortunately, look at the date: it is from 1994. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/397 "2016-07-08T20:57:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This is why your point makes no sense. If the negotiations succeed, such disputes all become moot. It would be an absurdity for Israel to take the position “oh and by the way, once you get your own country, our guys can still come at take bits of it when they feel like, okay?”. At this point I think we’re talking past each other. I agree that if/when Palestinians get their own state that Israeli court reforms won’t mean as much. I don’t see any reason, however, why Israel can’t immediately stop their immoral actions, regardless of negotiations for a Palestinian state. Such negotiations will take years; meanwhile Israeli’s are still stealing land and oppressing Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/398 "2016-07-08T20:59:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well, I’m trying to learn what you mean by the phrase. How much clearer can it be? The Israeli court has ruled that Israeli’s are stealing land from Palestinians. Now that you know this, what do you think should be done about it? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/399 "2016-07-08T21:11:05Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > At this point I think we’re talking past each other. I agree that if/when Palestinians get their own state that Israeli court reforms won’t mean as much. I don’t see any reason, however, why Israel can’t immediately stop their immoral actions, regardless of negotiations for a Palestinian state. Such negotiations will take years; meanwhile Israeli’s are still stealing land and oppressing Palestinians. There isn’t any reason they can’t, and every reason to pressure them to stop taking bits of the WB. The issue is what ought to happen if they don’t stop. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/400 "2016-07-08T22:46:54Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Umm Israel doesn’t characterize itself with rewarding self-exploders (who by definition escape all responsibility by being dead but whose families get money and think they’re with 72 virgins), international terror networks and plane hijackings, both of which are nothing aside from SAVAGERY. That no more excuses the fucktardedness of hard core zionists than the recent killings of innocent cops in Dallas excuses police brutality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=21)