# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/421 "2016-07-11T17:23:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s not what \*\*Deeg \*\*was talking about. He was speaking specifically about land in the Territories. > > That said, I doubt you’ll find a country in the world where national security doesn’t trump property rights. National security? There are arab citizens in Israel. Are they national security threats as well or are you saying that he results of a democratic process that included Palestinian votes would threaten national security? Or are you saying that keeping Israel Jewish is a national security issue rather than a Zionist issue. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/422 "2016-07-11T17:49:29Z")
No, I’m saying that letting 5 million people who hate us and want to kick us out of our homes into the country is a very creditable threat to national security, and frankly, only the most wilfully obtuse would claim otherwise. Edit: and this is exactly what I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/423 "2016-07-11T21:25:22Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > “Illegal” says who? The corrupt UN, which allows serial human rights offenders to sit on their human rights councils and commissions? The Palestinians and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, because they want it to be “illegal?” Says [the Geneva Convention:](https://www.icrc.org/ihl/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5) The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. > [@](#): > > One could easily argue the WB “occpuation” is perfectly legal because before 1967, it had been annexed by Jordan in 1949, an action only recognized by UK and Pakistan. Therefore, WB was “terra nullius.” That could be an argument for _annexation_, but how can be it an argument for an occupation that isn’t bound by the rules of military occupation? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/424 "2016-07-11T21:55:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Says [the Geneva Convention:](https://www.icrc.org/ihl/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5) > > The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. > > That could be an argument for _annexation_, but how can be it an argument for an occupation that isn’t bound by the rules of military occupation? Well, for one - because the Convention doesn’t apply, on its terms. It only applies in cases where the territory was legitimately owned by a “High Contracting Party” involved in a conflict: > [@](#): > > Art. 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace-time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. > > The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. Who is the “High Contracting Party” who legitimately owned the territory in question when the land was seized in 1967? Not Jordan - it seized the WB illegally during the '48 War (and has since disclaimed it); not the British, who handed back their UN Mandate; not Palestine, as that never existed as a country. The ‘legalistic’ argument against Israel based on the Convention is weak (though the contrary opinion is popular at the UN, to no-one’s surprise). That doesn’t make the displacement morally right, of course. Just that making this sort of legalistic argument won’t help. The Israelis will never agree to an interpretation that is, on its face, quite wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/425 "2016-07-11T22:16:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, for one - because the Convention doesn’t apply, on its terms. It only applies in cases where the territory was legitimately owned by a “High Contracting Party” involved in a conflict: > > Who is the “High Contracting Party” who legitimately owned the territory in question when the land was seized in 1967? Not Jordan - it seized the WB illegally during the '48 War (and has since disclaimed it); not the British, who handed back their UN Mandate; not Palestine, as that never existed as a country. Jordan. Circa '67, they exercised sovereignty over the region; residents got Jordanian citizenship, elected representatives to Parliament, and so forth. It was de facto Jordanian territory for the purposes of war. > [@](#): > > The ‘legalistic’ argument against Israel based on the Convention is weak (though the contrary opinion is popular at the UN, to no-one’s surprise). I disagree; and the alternative is too dreadful to tolerate. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t make the displacement morally right, of course. Just that making this sort of legalistic argument won’t help. The Israelis will never agree to an interpretation that is, on its face, quite wrong. Israel interpret things in light of what’s best for Israel, like any other country (see the US’ torture memos, or legal reasoning for why invading Iraq was a-ok). Doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to pretend the Palestinians have no rights. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/426 "2016-07-11T22:57:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Jordan. Circa '67, they exercised sovereignty over the region; residents got Jordanian citizenship, elected representatives to Parliament, and so forth. It was de facto Jordanian territory for the purposes of war. . . . In my opinion, this would be the “least bad” approach. Let Jordan accept sovereignty over the West Bank. They can govern it as they wish, and accept responsibility for peace-keeping. If they refuse to assimilate the Palestinian population, then the charge of “apartheid” would be on their heads. However, Jordan is completely uninterested in taking up this burden, and so we’re stuck in the current nightmare of nowhere land. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/427 "2016-07-11T23:12:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Edit: and this is exactly what I was talking about. ??? ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/428 "2016-07-11T23:28:01Z")
Unfortunately, Israel is now imploding into the direction of authoritarianism or perhaps even fascism with great speed. The Palestinian/Israeli discussion is of course a major trigger of this sad fact; however there is no hope of any solution in the near/mid future. It is unclear to me if Israel will survive the disease. Let’s hope. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/429 "2016-07-12T01:22:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Says [the Geneva Convention:](https://www.icrc.org/ihl/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5) > > The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. > > That could be an argument for _annexation_, but how can be it an argument for an occupation that isn’t bound by the rules of military occupation? You’re pointing to the exact reason the Israeli government denies what’s going on is an “occupation”. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/430 "2016-07-12T01:57:53Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Unfortunately, Israel is now imploding into the direction of authoritarianism or perhaps even fascism with great speed. I would have to disagree, but let me ask you this: Do you hope that Israel’s governance does not become more like that of other countries in the Middle East? Or is your great CONCERN mainly focused on Israel? > [@](#): > > It is unclear to me if Israel will survive the disease. Let’s hope. I take it you have the same CONCERNS about Israel’s neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/431 "2016-07-12T02:28:19Z")
Sorry, at this point I care a lot more about Israel than the neighbors. The governance of the other countries in the ME is mostly chaotic now. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/432 "2016-07-12T04:12:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Even assuming that’s true, it’s simply a matter of petitioning the court system for relief. Show me the specific court order which has been ignored. Otherwise your claim is incorrect. I’ve given multiple cites in my timeline summary. If you don’t want to believe them that’s on you, not me. > [@Alessan](#): > > I think the problem here, **Deeg** , is that you’re conflating two separate issues, that of national rights and that of individual rights. It’s a very American thing to do, but it’s not really relevant here. > > Yes, individual Israelis and the Israeli government has taken land from individual Palestinian, and while this is something that should be corrected, as things go it’s a relatively minor issue. That’s because the Israeli-Palestinian dispute is about sovereignty, not ownership. When Arabs say “Palestinian lands”, they aren’t referring to land owned by individual Palestinians, they are referring to lands that they believe should be part of a Palestinian state. Even if Israel returned all the land to what they believe to be is owners, it wouldn’t come close to solving the conflict, because that land would still be \*ruled \*by Israel. I harp on Israelis stealing land not only because it’s immoral and illegal but because it is proof that the Israeli government is oppressive regarding West Bank Palestinians. Jimmy Carter, someone who probably understands **both** sides as well as any, has explicitly likened it to [apartheid](https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Peace-Apartheid-Jimmy-Carter/dp/0743285034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468295692&sr=8-1). Even if it doesn’t solve the conflict it must end because it is a basic human rights issue. I believe that peace will never be possible while Israel is oppressing Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/433 "2016-07-12T05:13:56Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I believe that peace will never be possible while Israel is oppressing Palestinians. But it’s okay for Palestinians to oppress Israelis? Proudly declaring that you intend to kill all your Israeli neighbors is okay? Don’t you realize that the constitution of Hamas says Israel must be obliterated by Muslims? [Hamas Charter - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant) ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/434 "2016-07-12T05:26:34Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > But it’s okay for Palestinians to oppress Israelis? > Proudly declaring that you intend to kill all your Israeli neighbors is okay? > > Don’t you realize that the constitution of Hamas says Israel must be obliterated by Muslims? > [Hamas Charter - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant) don’t bother; the far-left and the Islamists/sympathizers always have their excuses of “colonial imperialism,” etc. straight out of Lenin’s “Imperialism: The Highest Form of Capitalism” playbook. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/435 "2016-07-12T05:47:08Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > . . . Jimmy Carter, someone who probably understands **both** sides as well as any, has explicitly likened it to [apartheid](https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Peace-Apartheid-Jimmy-Carter/dp/0743285034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468295692&sr=8-1). . . . While I have great respect for Carter, I’ve never been able to accept that comparison. Apartheid was the segregation and discrimination against a nation’s own citizens. Israel segregates and perhaps discriminates against non-citizens. The comparison is not apt. Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied West Bank has enough sins to be responsible for. It isn’t fair to make up a sin that simply is not applicable. Stealing farms and groves from Palestinian farmers to expand settlements is a grievous sin. “Apartheid” isn’t a valid comparison. (There are accusations that Israel mistreats Israeli citizens of Arabic descent, and, while there may be discrimination there, that, also, fails to rise to the level of “apartheid.”) [For what is may be worth, a black South African member of Parliament who remembers apartheid says that Israel is not guilty of that practice.](http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/I-know-what-apartheid-was-and-Israel-is-not-apartheid-says-S-African-parliament-member-413101) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/436 "2016-07-12T05:49:28Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > don’t bother; the far-left and the Islamists/sympathizers always have their excuses of “colonial imperialism,” etc. straight out of Lenin’s “Imperialism: The Highest Form of Capitalism” playbook. Would you please stop that kind of crap? We’re trying to have a mature conversation here, and straw-man attacks of this nature are not helpful. Again, thou ain’t helping. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/437 "2016-07-12T07:55:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I take it you have the same CONCERNS about Israel’s neighbors? Don’t compare us to them, OK? I have no problem when people hold Israel to a higher standard than its neighbors. In fact, I’m offended when they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/438 "2016-07-12T09:58:06Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Sorry, at this point I care a lot more about Israel than the neighbors. The governance of the other countries in the ME is mostly chaotic now. It’s nice to know how CONCERNED you are for Israel; so many of Israel’s critics just want to express their deep CONCERN. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/439 "2016-07-12T10:00:06Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’ve given multiple cites in my timeline summary. Just tell me the number of the post where you did so. Should be extremely easy. Also, please answer my questions from before: What are some of the “many concessions” required of the Palestinian Arabs? Also, do you agree that the Palestinian Arabs must unilaterally stop their illegal actions, e.g. the rocketing attacks against civilians, the use of human shields, attempting to steal Jewish land, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/440 "2016-07-12T10:10:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Don’t compare us to them, OK? > > I have no problem when people hold Israel to a higher standard than its neighbors. In fact, I’m offended when they don’t. That may be sensible for a lot of purposes, but the thing is that a lot of criticism of Israel is disguised as CONCERN. If someone is just deeply CONCERNED about Israel then, assuming they are not Israeli (or otherwise connected to the country), they ought to be CONCERNED about other countries too, including Israel’s neighbors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=23)