# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/501 "2016-07-15T14:28:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I agree with you on the “colonial” analogy, but this part is at odds with my impression. Do you have numbers on the employment part? And I know that concern (justified or not) with “Arab” birthrates, and non-Jews catching up in population, is often given as a reason why non-Jews can’t simply be granted full and equal citizenship. Non Jews actually in Israel do have full and equal citizenship. The concern isn’t with them, it is with granting the so-called “right of return” to anyone who can legitimately claim to be a descendent of a Palestinian refugee - many now located in countries such as Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, as well as in the WB and Gaza. The notion is that if an open-ended “right of return” is granted, Israel would simply be flooded by such immigrants. The birth rates of people actually in Israel or the WB has often been cited as a “demographic problem” - but it isn’t, because the extraordinary high birth rates of Palestinians in the 60s and 70s were not sustained. Israel is likely to face a problem with the ultra-orthodox Jews, though. > **[Israel’s ‘Demographic Time Bomb’ Is a Dud](https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/12/18/israels-demographic-time-bomb-is-a-dud/)** > > Sorry, but the real number of Arab Israelis isn't an existential threat to the Jewish state. [http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/24579/Default.aspx](http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/24579/Default.aspx) As for Palestinians working in Israel - the numbers are pretty clear: > **[Palestinian workers in Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_workers_in_Israel)** > > Palestinian workers in Israel (Hebrew: עובדים פלסטינים) are Palestinian citizens of the Palestinian Authority who are employed by Israeli citizens in the State of Israel and Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Most of them work as unskilled laborers in sectors such as agriculture and construction. > According to January 1, 2015 Administration of Border Crossings, Population and Immigration report, there are 55,200 jobs that are dedicated to Palestinian workers. The permits are divided to secto... Some 55,000 work in Israel legally (some 30,000 allegedly work illegally) as unskilled laborers. They are of course subject to exploitation, having few other opportunities. The Israeli economy is, needless to say, not dependent on some 50-80K cheap manual workers; if Israel closed the borders it would suffer a little, but the WB would suffer a lot. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/502 "2016-07-15T14:44:07Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > What do you mean when you say Palestinians were “given” to arabs? They’re people, not suit cases. Umm, try reading carefully. > [@](#): > > the majority of **Palestine** had already been given to Arabs > [@](#): > > A one state solution where Christians, Jews and Palestinians live together with the right of return Ok, so for you, a “fair deal” would entail dissolving Israel as a Jewish state. Thank you for finally answering my question. So when you stated that “The Palestinians have never been made a fair offer,” what you meant was that Israel has never offered to dissolve itself as a Jewish State. That, of course, is correct. Israel has never made a “fair offer” and probably never will. By the way, I think it would be fair if Palestinian Authority offered me $10,000,000 just because I’m tired of going to work every day and I would like to retire. Unfortunately, the Palestinian Authority has never made me a fair offer. > [@](#): > > 1. Israel uses human shields to for starters I’m highly skeptical of this claim, but anyway it’s not an answer to my question. Does your claimed “every right to defend themselves” include the rocket attacks on civilians; the stabbings; and the use of their own people as human shields? It’s a very simple yes or no question. You promised me an answer. Now please provide it. I’m simply trying to figure out the specifics of your claim. > [@](#): > > 1. Israel doesn’t want peace. It wants all of Palestine. That’s why they’re building settlements So why did Israel withdraw from Gaza? Why did Israel offer the Palestinian Arabs autonomy in Area A? Why not just use its overwhelming military superiority to take over all of these areas and expel their residents just like the Arabs tried to do in in 1948 and again in 1967? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/503 "2016-07-15T15:40:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Non Jews actually in Israel do have full and equal citizenship. I meant, all residents of territory under military control of Israel. West Bank and Gaza Palestinians at present are not equal citizens of either Israel, nor any other functionally sovereign state. Their movements through or out of their controlling state’s territory are heavily circumscribed; their educational, economic and political activities are legally restricted; they are subject to harsher forms and standards of state enforcement, with reduced or no safeguards for individual rights and due process. And all this is based on factors of birth beyond their control. It’s not exactly like SA apartheid, but on a human-rights level it seems to share all the most important features. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/504 "2016-07-15T15:52:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The concern isn’t with them, it is with granting the so-called “right of return” to anyone who can legitimately claim to be a descendent of a Palestinian refugee - many now located in countries such as Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, as well as in the WB and Gaza. > > The notion is that if an open-ended “right of return” is granted, Israel would simply be flooded by such immigrants. Luckily for Israel, the longer this drags on, the more difficult it will be to prove a person was a descendant of those who used to live there. With less first and second generation descendants, claims will lessen and be less fervorous ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/505 "2016-07-15T16:21:36Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I meant, all residents of territory under military control of Israel. West Bank and Gaza Palestinians at present are not equal citizens of either Israel, nor any other functionally sovereign state. Their movements through or out of their controlling state’s territory are heavily circumscribed; their educational, economic and political activities are legally restricted; they are subject to harsher forms and standards of state enforcement, with reduced or no safeguards for individual rights and due process. And all this is based on factors of birth beyond their control. > > It’s not exactly like SA apartheid, but on a human-rights level it seems to share all the most important features. I disagree. The single most significant fallacy here is the notion that Palestinians wish above all else to become full citizens of Israel, sharing the rights and obligations of Israelis, but are (presumably unfairly) prevented from doing so because the (Jewish) Israelis deny them that right - like Black South Africans under Apartheid. However, this is a fundamental misreading of the situation. As I’ve said above, what you have here is competing ethno-nationalisms - Israeli and Palestinian. Palestinians by and large don’t wish to become Israelis, they wish to have their own state - either on the WB (those that still hope for peace) or over the whole of historic Palestine (those who hold out hope for an untrammeled ‘right of return’). I assume you would like some proof of this assertion, so I will offer some. Take the example of East Jerusalem. Palestinians “residents” were offered a choice: apply for Israeli citizenship - and swear allegiance to Israel and renounce all other citizenships (such as, presumably, Palestinian should it come into being): > [@](#): > > Following the 1967 war, Israel conducted a census in East Jerusalem and granted permanent Israeli residency to those Arab Jerusalemites present at the time of the census. Those not present lost the right to reside in Jerusalem. Jerusalem Palestinians are permitted to apply for Israeli citizenship, provided they meet the requirements for naturalization—such as swearing allegiance to Israel and renouncing all other citizenships—which most of them refuse to do. At the end of 2005, 93% of the Arab population of East Jerusalem had permanent residency and 5% had Israeli citizenship. > **[East Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency)** > > East Jerusalem (Arabic: القدس الشرقية, al-Quds ash-Sharqiya; Hebrew: מִזְרַח יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, Mizraḥ Yerushalayim) is the portion of Jerusalem that was held by Jordan after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, as opposed to West Jerusalem, which was held by Israel.\[a\] Under international law, East Jerusalem is considered part of the West Bank, and Palestinian territories, and under illegal occupation by Israel. Many states recognize East Jerusalem as the capital of the State of Palestine (such as Br Jeru... Being offered full citizenship - and rejecting that offer - is simply not consistent with “apartheid”. It is consistent with competing ethno-nationalisms. The reason, of course, why Israel offers citizenship (and why Palestinians reject the offer) is that Israel hopes to take all of Jerusalem as its capital city, and Palestine wishes to have at least East Jerusalem as _its_ capital city - and most Palestinians agree with this goal. Those seeking “apartheid” as an analogy are, to put it simply, wrong. This isn’t a comment on the morality or otherwise of Israeli actions - it is a commentary on the nature of the situation: it is not a conflict by a minority overclass to maintain its status, it is a conflict between two ethno-nationalist groups over territory. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/506 "2016-07-15T16:23:05Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Luckily for Israel, the longer this drags on, the more difficult it will be to prove a person was a descendant of those who used to live there. With less first and second generation descendants, claims will lessen and be less fervorous This hasn’t happened, though. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/507 "2016-07-15T17:16:54Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > In the words of George W. Bush, you forgot Poland! The Oder-Neisse Line is the current German/Polish border, and even after WWII, Germany never really sought it back even tho that issue stayed in the public eye there and elsewhere for decades. Germany’s cession of it was only formalized 25 years ago. > > Much of the land the Jews got in the partition they accepted (and the Arabs rejected) was the empty and barely irrigable Negev Desert. > > Given that the far-left (and paleo-right’s) argument against Israel sounded very similar before Netanyahu, I doubt your opinion would be different if someone who talked nicer were in office there. Also, why does the broader Muslim world really care enough about “Palestine” to commit jihad around the world for it? Is it because yea there’s a holy sight there? The Muslims have nearly all of their holy sights, tons of them in countries led, populated, and run by Muslims, so let someone else have just one. And if that actually is some sort of justification for terrorist Islam jihad, then that demonstrates why they’re terrorists. 1. The fact that you’re quoting Bush is telling. 2. They accepted it because they were getting a great deal. They were the minority, they were recent immigrants and they were taking land from the indigenous people. 3. So what? Israel was founded through terrorism and commits terrorism itself. The Islamic world does care about Palestine because the treatment of the Palestinians is symbolic of the treatmen of muslims by the Western world. Until this issue is solved, get used to terrorist attacks against the west. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/508 "2016-07-15T17:18:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You didn’t make any such specification in your question. If you only wanted answers post 1945, why didn’t you say so? Because I did. I said after World War 2. It’s not my fault you have trouble reading. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/509 "2016-07-15T17:26:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Why, exactly? What makes something you disagree with “nonsense?” > > Not against civilian targets, only against targets of war. (You may disagree that someone launching a rocket from a site makes it a target of war, but, since many of your arguments are based on legalistic interpretations of the Geneva Conventions, then, yes, launching a rocket from a site – even a hospital or shrine – makes that site a legitimate target of war.) > > Can you cite this? I do not dispute it automatically, but I’d like to make a straight-up comparison. How many shrines has Israel desecrated, compared to the Palestinian desecrations? Remember, I never said “Israel is without fault.” I said that the Palestinians are worse. > > Palestine was never a nation, and so cannot have been “wiped off the map.” It was never on the map to begin with. > > And by “Palestinian towns,” it’s clear that this means towns in the West Bank or Gaza under Palestinian Authority or Hamas governance. > > I don’t care if they are grateful or not: they are receiving a consideration which they do not offer to Jewish citizens under their authority. Palestine is behaving worse than Israel is. > > Your sarcastic response is, in fact, not a rebuttal in any sense. It’s just snark. It does not actually state a position and it fails to advance your cause. That’s a bad debate technique, and you might want to reconsider its use. > > I disagree. The comparison is inapt and badly contrived. Also, so what. It’s a comparison. A simile. Do you believe that debating on the basis of similes is valid? It’s like putting lipstick on a pig. > > Those are your opinions, with which some of us in this thread disagree. Your assertions are, in fact, a legitimate form of debate (something up till now you have not been accomplishing) but they are still only assertions. My assertion is that Palestinian behavior is worse that Israeli behavior, something you have not addressed at all, in any form whatever. > > If I say, “A is worse than B,” only indicating B’s crimes is not a logical rebuttal. “Hitler was worse than Stalin.” “But Stalin murdered millions, and had his enemies killed, and made war against neutral countries.” The response is true, but it fails to serve as an actual functioning rebuttal. > > You flunk Rhetoric 102. 1. You’re so ignorant it’s painful. Israel kills civilians all the time. In their last massacre over 80% of the dead were civilians. Did they do it on purpose or are they just the most incompetent army in the world? 2. The Palestinians aren’t worse. They’re the victims. 3. That’s another nonsensical Zionist argument. Palestine was a mandate. Not a colony. It was being prepared for independence as an Arab state. When zionists started stirring up trouble against the Palestinian natives, the British blocked their immigration so the zionists already there tjrned to terrorism against the natives and the British. 4. The Israelis are behaving like Nazis. Israeli politicians have actually called for genocide against the natives. Hows that for irony. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/510 "2016-07-15T17:28:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sure. I’ve argued against the Israeli seizure of lands to expand their settlements, calling it improper. “Unfair” is a perfectly valid word for it. > > Will you acknowledge that what has happened and what is happening to Israelis right now isn’t fair? What’s unfair? Killing civilians is a war crime, but the Palestinians have a moral and legal obligation to resist the brutal occupation of Palestine under international law. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/511 "2016-07-15T17:30:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This is a good post to segue into a mild rant. > > Part of my unease with leftish analysis of the situation in the ME is that some people on the left have a very evident tendency to choose what to me appears exactly the wrong analogies to approach the current situation with. This is natural enough, because there is a human situation to look for analogies in which the ‘right’ side ‘won’. in the past. > > Hence the desire to see in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict something either exactly alike, or at least closely akin, to the “decolonization” movements of the 50s through '60s, or to “Apartheid” - with the Israelis cast, respectively, as colonialists or South African Whites. > > The problem, of course, is that these analogies don’t fit in the slightest, meaning that “lessons learned” from these prior situations are not going to be applicable. > > The Israelis are not “colonists”. A “colonist” is someone who, ultimately, has a “metropolitan” to look to for support and if necessary for shelter. Hence, it is perfectly possible to terrorize or propagandize a “colonist” into simply giving up his or her colonial efforts, packing their bags, and returning to the ‘homeland’ if the going gets too rough. > > Israelis can’t do that. They are already living in what they consider their ‘homeland’ and have nowhere to go. So the tactics used against ‘colonists’ simply can’t work on them. All terror does is make them nastier and all propaganda does is convince them that the person producing the propaganda can’t be trusted. > > Similarly, they aren’t engaged in “Apartheid”. What White South Africans were doing, in essence, was creating a society in which racial discrimination artificially kept a minority of Whites at the top of a society in which the majority of the population was Black - a system of economic exploitation used by an ‘overclass’. The Israelis do not rely on economically exploiting Palestinians - while some do employ Palestinians from the WB, this is tangential to their economy, and if necessary they can and will cut all contact without suffering much. Moreover, Jewish Israelis are an absolute majority within Israel - they are not a small exploitative minority. Again, the same tactics that worked against South Africa will not work on Israel, because they are fundamentally unlike. > > In reality, what is going on with Palestine vs. Israel is nothing unusual - it is a perfectly normal clash of ethno-nationalisms, both created at much the same time; somewhat complicated these days by the fact that the Palestinians have been caught up, as has much of the ME, with a very unpleasant fundamentalist religious revival (in their case, Hamas). Look not to “decolonization” or to “Aparthied”, but to situations like the break-up of Yugoslavia into competing ethno-nationalist states. > > Why does this matter? Because by barking up the wrong tree, I am convinced, those uncritically plugging the modern-leftish line are doing more harm than good - to the Palestinians above all. They, poor saps, have been led to believe that such tactics will work (when you have nothing you are easy to convince) and this has led them to putting their energies in the wrong places - looking always to get back at Israel, rather than looking forward to either building new lives elsewhere, or a country that could actually be a possible rival for Israel in what land they can get. Why should they, when they have been promised that any day now Israel will be swept away and they can get their old villages back, down to the last pre-1948 well? The Israeli Jews are by definition colonists because they aren’t the natives. I live in Canada. My ancestors lived in France. Therefore, I am not a native of Canada. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/512 "2016-07-15T17:37:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Umm, try reading carefully. > > Ok, so for you, a “fair deal” would entail dissolving Israel as a Jewish state. Thank you for finally answering my question. > > So when you stated that “The Palestinians have never been made a fair offer,” what you meant was that Israel has never offered to dissolve itself as a Jewish State. That, of course, is correct. Israel has never made a “fair offer” and probably never will. > > By the way, I think it would be fair if Palestinian Authority offered me $10,000,000 just because I’m tired of going to work every day and I would like to retire. Unfortunately, the Palestinian Authority has never made me a fair offer. > > I’m highly skeptical of this claim, but anyway it’s not an answer to my question. > > Does your claimed “every right to defend themselves” include the rocket attacks on civilians; the stabbings; and the use of their own people as human shields? > > It’s a very simple yes or no question. You promised me an answer. Now please provide it. I’m simply trying to figure out the specifics of your claim. > > So why did Israel withdraw from Gaza? Why did Israel offer the Palestinian Arabs autonomy in Area A? Why not just use its overwhelming military superiority to take over all of these areas and expel their residents just like the Arabs tried to do in in 1948 and again in 1967? 1. I don’t believe in Christian states, Islamic states or Jewish states. I don’t believe in White states, Yellow states or Black states. The only states I believe in are liberal democratic states. Maybe you’re just a racist. I’m not. 2. The fact that israel is offering Palestine a tiny fraction of Palestinian land is ridiculous to start with. It’s the guy that steals 100$ from your wallet and pretends he’s being generous when he gives you a dollar back. 3. Israel didn’t withdraw from gaza. They removed settlements because they were by far the minority and they had no where else to send the ethnically cleansed Palestinians. They still controlled the borders, they still controlled the waters, they still controlled the land, they still controlled the air, they still controlled medical supplies, they still controlled food… I can go on, but I won’t. Palestine was still occupied. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/513 "2016-07-15T17:46:41Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > The Israeli Jews are by definition colonists because they aren’t the natives. I live in Canada. My ancestors lived in France. Therefore, I am not a native of Canada. That’s a really dumb definition, then. By that definition, every immigrant is a “colonialist” and only those who can point to an unbroken line of aboriginal ancestors have legitimacy. That’s blood-and-soil nationalism taken to an absurd extreme. “Colonialism” is the process by which one nation “colonizes” another. Immigrants are not automatically “colonizers”, they are only colonizers if they are sent from one nation to assert its dominance over another, or its claim to territory; the mark of a “colonist” is that they have a “metropolitan” nation to return to, whose interests they ultimately serve. To take the example of French Canadians cited by you, their distant ancestors were indeed “colonists”, serving the metropolitan nation of France. They most certainly do not regard themselves, or are regarded by anyone else, as “colonists” _today_. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/514 "2016-07-15T17:47:12Z")
I can point you to a UN charter that establishes the nation of Israel. Can you please point to one that establishes the nation of Palestine? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/515 "2016-07-15T19:49:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This hasn’t happened, though. Cause a lot of them are still alive. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/516 "2016-07-16T00:28:04Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > 1. I don’t believe in Christian states, Islamic states or Jewish states. So I take it then, you believe that Jews should be perfectly free to return to and live in Hebron, Gaza, and all of Jerusalem over the objections? > [@](#): > > Maybe you’re just a racist. I’m not. Perhaps. Will you condemn the Palestinian Arabs for demanding that Jews born and raised in Hebron, Ariel, and Efrat be required to leave? > [@](#): > > 1. The fact that israel is offering Palestine a tiny fraction of Palestinian land is ridiculous to start with. So that I can understand this claim, could you please define the term “Palestinian land” for me? What exactly are the boundaries of “Palestinian land”? And how did it come to be “Palestinian land”? When Jews were ethnically cleansed from Hebron, Eastern Jerusalem, and Gaza City in the 30s and 40s, did those areas become “Palestinian Land”? Now that Jews have returned to the first two areas, are they now “Jewish Land”? > [@](#): > > 1. Israel didn’t withdraw from gaza. How many IDF soldiers are stationed within Gaza at the moment? Who administers justice in Gaza at the moment? Also, please answer my question from before, which you promised you would answer: Does your claimed “every right to defend themselves” include the rocket attacks on civilians; the stabbings; and the use of their own people as human shields? It’s a very simple yes or no question. You promised me an answer. Now please provide it ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/517 "2016-07-16T00:41:09Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I meant, all residents of territory under military control of Israel. West Bank and Gaza Palestinians at present are not equal citizens of either Israel, nor any other functionally sovereign state. . . . This is true, and extremely unfortunate, but it isn’t “apartheid.” It’s a completely unique problem, one that really isn’t comparable to anything else. If Israel were to annex the West Bank, and declare it all to be a part of Israel, the problem would then become much worse, for there would be all these millions of Palestinians who would become Israeli Citizens. Then either they would have to be given all the same rights and freedoms of all other Israelis…or else the charge of “apartheid” would be closer to valid. But Israel hasn’t annexed the West Bank, and the Palestinians are not Israeli citizens. They’re citizens of no nation and no state. It’s a hellish limbo, and ought to be fixed, some day, by the recognition of the independent nation of Palestine. But the trouble with that is that no one agrees on the borders of that new nation. So we’re stuck right where we are, spinning our wheels in nowhere-land. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/518 "2016-07-16T00:48:48Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > 1. You’re so ignorant it’s painful. Israel kills civilians all the time. In their last massacre over 80% of the dead were civilians. Did they do it on purpose or are they just the most incompetent army in the world? You’re still not making a case to rebut my argument that the Palestinians’ crimes are worse than any Israeli wrongdoing. You keep saying, “Here is evidence of Israeli wrongdoing,” but that doesn’t in any way reduce the odium of Palestinian wrongdoing. You aren’t actually addressing the facts, just introducing irrelevancies. > [@](#): > > 1. The Palestinians aren’t worse. They’re the victims. The two are not mutually exclusive. Victims sometimes commit crimes too. In this case, the Palestinians are victims and are committing wrongdoings worse than what the Israelis are doing. > [@](#): > > 1. That’s another nonsensical Zionist argument. Palestine was a mandate. Not a colony. It was being prepared for independence as an Arab state. When zionists started stirring up trouble against the Palestinian natives, the British blocked their immigration so the zionists already there tjrned to terrorism against the natives and the British. This has nothing to do with anything I have said. I don’t know what you think this demonstrates. Even if everything said in that paragraph is true – it doesn’t contradict anything I have said here. You’re ranting at random, making points without context. > [@](#): > > 1. The Israelis are behaving like Nazis. Israeli politicians have actually called for genocide against the natives. Hows that for irony. Palestinian politicians have called for genocide against Israelis: more of them have done so, more often. So you still can’t actually address anything I’ve said. You seem to lack any concept of logical reasoning. You can’t rebut my points, but only make non-relevant thrusts that don’t contradict a single word I’ve posted. You flunk rhetoric 101. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/519 "2016-07-16T02:48:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s a really dumb definition, then. By that definition, every immigrant is a “colonialist” and only those who can point to an unbroken line of aboriginal ancestors have legitimacy. That’s blood-and-soil nationalism taken to an absurd extreme. > > “Colonialism” is the process by which one nation “colonizes” another. Immigrants are not automatically “colonizers”, they are only colonizers if they are sent from one nation to assert its dominance over another, or its claim to territory; the mark of a “colonist” is that they have a “metropolitan” nation to return to, whose interests they ultimately serve. > > To take the example of French Canadians cited by you, their distant ancestors were indeed “colonists”, serving the metropolitan nation of France. They most certainly do not regard themselves, or are regarded by anyone else, as “colonists” _today_. Jesus Christ. Many of them are still alive and their still colonizing land in the present. ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/520 "2016-07-16T02:54:01Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So I take it then, you believe that Jews should be perfectly free to return to and live in Hebron, Gaza, and all of Jerusalem over the objections? > > Perhaps. Will you condemn the Palestinian Arabs for demanding that Jews born and raised in Hebron, Ariel, and Efrat be required to leave? > > So that I can understand this claim, could you please define the term “Palestinian land” for me? What exactly are the boundaries of “Palestinian land”? And how did it come to be “Palestinian land”? > > When Jews were ethnically cleansed from Hebron, Eastern Jerusalem, and Gaza City in the 30s and 40s, did those areas become “Palestinian Land”? Now that Jews have returned to the first two areas, are they now “Jewish Land”? > > How many IDF soldiers are stationed within Gaza at the moment? Who administers justice in Gaza at the moment? > > Also, please answer my question from before, which you promised you would answer: > > Does your claimed “every right to defend themselves” include the rocket attacks on civilians; the stabbings; and the use of their own people as human shields? > > It’s a very simple yes or no question. You promised me an answer. Now please provide it 1. In a Palestinian state without bigotry? Sure. Why not. Jews, Christian and Muslims lived there together in peace before Zionism. 2. Only if you condemn the Jews for stealing land through ethnic cleansing and terrorism in the first place. Will you? 3. By the fact that they owned it? Under international law. When the state of Israel was declared they owned 7% of the land. The overwhelming majority of land was owned by Palestinians. It was stolen from them by Israel. 4. The land was Palestinian before the non Palestinian Jews arrived. It wasn’t there’s in the first place. 5. The UN and even the United States recognize Gaza as occupied territory. Get over it. 6. I already answered that question. I won’t repeat myself just because you struggle with reading. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=27)