# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/521 "2016-07-16T02:59:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You’re still not making a case to rebut my argument that the Palestinians’ crimes are worse than any Israeli wrongdoing. You keep saying, “Here is evidence of Israeli wrongdoing,” but that doesn’t in any way reduce the odium of Palestinian wrongdoing. You aren’t actually addressing the facts, just introducing irrelevancies. > > The two are not mutually exclusive. Victims sometimes commit crimes too. In this case, the Palestinians are victims and are committing wrongdoings worse than what the Israelis are doing. > > This has nothing to do with anything I have said. I don’t know what you think this demonstrates. Even if everything said in that paragraph is true – it doesn’t contradict anything I have said here. You’re ranting at random, making points without context. > > Palestinian politicians have called for genocide against Israelis: more of them have done so, more often. So you still can’t actually address anything I’ve said. You seem to lack any concept of logical reasoning. You can’t rebut my points, but only make non-relevant thrusts that don’t contradict a single word I’ve posted. > > You flunk rhetoric 101. Debating dullard bores me. You’re on repeat. 1. The Israelis do all of the same things the Palestinians did (and more, ethnic cleansing settlemenfs etc.) with less justification since they started the conflict. 2. Prove it. Show me your data. Prove that the Palestinians called for genocide more often than Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/522 "2016-07-16T03:49:43Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > Debating dullard bores me. You’re on repeat. If you need to insult another poster, take it to [The BBQ Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=5). Do not launch personal insults or name calling in this forum or any forum other than The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/523 "2016-07-16T04:26:04Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > . . . Prove it. Show me your data. Prove that the Palestinians called for genocide more often than Israelis. [Well, here’s one cite that 72% of Palestinians support the “stabbing intifada,”](http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/12/08/72-of-palestinian-arabs-support-genocide-against-the-jews/#) or the knifing of Israel’s Jews. Meanwhile, only 48% of Israeli Jews want to expel Palestinian Arabs from Israel. Not to kill them, only to expel them. This is in no way admirable; it’s a shameful statistic and speaks very badly for the narrow, bigoted mind-set of many Israeli conservatives. Shame on them. (Don’t laugh; many American conservatives want to expel Muslims from the U.S.) But 72% who want to kill is vastly more than 48% who only want to expel. It isn’t admirable, but it proves you are wrong in your claim that the Israelis is “more genocidal” than the Palestinians are. [Here is a rebuttal to the claim that Israel is actually committing genocide.](http://972mag.com/accusing-israel-of-genocide-major-fail/97099/) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/524 "2016-07-16T08:21:17Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > 1. In a Palestinian state without bigotry? Sure. Why not. Jews, Christian and Muslims lived there together in peace before Zionism. So that I can scrutinize this claim, please tell me when exactly did “Zionism” start in your view? > [@](#): > > 1. Only if you condemn the Jews for stealing land through ethnic cleansing and terrorism in the first place. Will you? Of course not, given that the charge you lay is false. Funny that you won’t accuse the Palestinian Arabs of the very racism you seem to condemn elsewhere. > [@](#): > > 1. By the fact that they owned it? Under international law. Ummm, I’m just asking you to define a term for me. What is “Palestinian land” according to you? And is this “international law” you cite from the same source as your other claim about international law? i.e., from your own imagination and wishful thinking? You used the term “Palestinian land.” Please define it. Please tell me the what territories comprise “Palestinian land” and how it came to be “Palestinian land.” I am asking this question so that I can scrutinize your position. > [@](#): > > 1. The UN and even the United States recognize Gaza as occupied territory. Get over it. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that’s true. It doesn’t change the fact that Israel pulled its soldiery out and removed all Jews who were residing there. If, as you claim, Israel is attempting to exclusively occupy the whole area, this makes no sense. (Kinda like most of your arguments.) > [@](#): > > 1. I already answered that question. I won’t repeat myself just because you struggle with reading. No you didn’t you evaded my question. I asked whether your claimed “every right to defend themselves” include the rocket attacks on civilians; the stabbings; and the use of their own people as human shields. You responded by falsely accusing Israel of using human shields. That’s not an answer to my question, it’s simply evasion and distraction. You promised me an answer. This is the last time I will ask. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/525 "2016-07-17T14:27:22Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > Jesus Christ. Many of them are still alive and their still colonizing land in the present. When complaining about groups of Jews, or even non-Christians in general, you might want to avoid exclamations like “Jesus Christ”. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/526 "2016-07-17T21:46:51Z")
By Odin’s hairy eyeball! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/527 "2016-07-18T02:53:57Z")
Blasphemer! It was not his single eyeball that was hairy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/528 "2016-07-18T04:10:39Z")
> [@1046190](#): > > Only if you condemn \*\*the Jews \*\*for stealing land through ethnic cleansing and terrorism in the first place. Will you? An interesting decision from someone who earlier complained of wild accusations of people being “anti-semetic”(sic). Not “the Israelis”, “the Zionists”, or even “the Israeli Jews”, it’s “the Jews”. > [@](#): > > **1046190** > Jews, Christian and Muslims lived there together in peace before Zionism. This is a very odd choice of terms for someone who seems to feel so strongly about racism and a little like saying “blacks and whites lived in peace during the Jim Crow South”. I guess you could say except for some pogroms like Damascus in 1840 and some of the unpleasantness faced by the Armenians, Christians and Jews weren’t treated too badly, but they were always legally second class citizens and treated worse than Muslims. > [@](#): > > **1046190** > That’s an old and pathetic argument. This argument that Palestinians don’t exist i complete nonsense. The Palestinians exist in the same way that Italians exist and Greeks exist and Germans exist. If anything, this argument would work better for Israel since the Israelis come from all over the world (although mostly Europe). What argument? I didn’t make any arguments, I merely asked you a question. I asked you to define what you meant by “Palestinians” because there is no universal agreement on what is and isn’t “a Palestinian”. Your reference to Greeks, Italians, and Germans makes little sense because those are nationalities that have been around for vastly, vastly longer than people have been classifying themselves as Palestinians and they have their own languages whereas the Palestinians do not have their own language(which doesn’t mean they’re not a legitimate nationality). It should be noted that in several posts you seem to indicate the Palestinians sense of National consciousness has been around for a centuries but in fact it’s only a few generations old. For that matter, Arabic speakers from the Levant haven’t been identifying themselves as Arabs much longer. It didn’t start until the late 19th Century. > [@](#): > > @ibn waraq Of couse there can be Palestinian Jews. The Jews that were there before zionism were **Arabic jews.** Not all Arabs are muslim. The Ottoman Census before the british mandate listed it as 87% muslim, 10% christian and 3% jewish. Ok, this is an odd reference here. Are you under the impression that under Ottoman Empire Jews, Christians and Muslims who spoke Arabic were considered Arabs? That wasn’t the case, and in fact the Ottoman Census you noted specifically didn’t classify them as Arabs because until very recently, a person’s religious identity was vastly more important than their national identity. Arab National consciousness was largely started by Christians to create unity with Muslims and the Christians who started it had no interest in classifying Arabic speaking Jews as Arabs. BTW, Palestinian National consciousness is even younger. You’ll note that in 1937, when testifying before the Peel Commission that Amin Al Husseini, who is regarded as the father of Palestinian National Consciousness said that what was “Palestine” should have been joined with Syria because they were “Syrians.” Perhaps you could have some explanations for your rather curious phrasings and seeming errors? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/529 "2016-07-19T23:27:14Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Why I support Israel: I would add a couple reasons: 1. Generally speaking, the Palestinian Arabs (and many of their supposed supporters) insist that the entire area is “Palestinian Land” including areas where Jews lived for hundreds of years before they were ethnically cleansed by Arabs. For example Hebron, Eastern Jerusalem, and Gaza City. Evidently, once the Arabs kick Jews out from an area, it becomes “Palestinian Land” forever even if Jews return and live there for generations. This (double) standard is unreasonable, unfair, and unworkable. Of course, there are Jews on the other side who take the opposite position, that the entire area is Jewish land and all of the Arabs need to go. The difference is that this group does not control the agenda in Israel. Whereas the opposite position is basically a consensus among the Arabs. 1. As a corollary, Israel is willing to make painful concessions for the sake of peace; the Arabs for the most part are not. 2. The Palestinian Arabs (and their supporters) hold Israel to a standard of perfection in its conduct. Any deviation, real or invented, seems to get the blame for just about the entire conflict. While at the same time, far worse conduct on the part of the Palestinian Arabs gets excused, minimized, denied, or justified. Of course the joke of it all is that the Palestinian Arabs tried to achieve their vision back in 1948 and lost. Normally the losing side to an armed conflict does not get to set peace terms. Rather than trying to make the best of the situation, as a group they prefer to wallow in eternal victimhood. ---
**Author:** ![Commodore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Commodore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commodore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/530 "2016-07-21T05:39:55Z")
Israel is the servants of God, that one who is enlightened more so than the other Jews. Jew is the people of God, that means they are not to be lead into slavery, remember Holy Moses and the OT, it points out about idolatry, it’s not for true people of God and if one does support idolatry then you are not a Jew ? = a people of God remember ! A race is called the Hebrews ? There was a tribe of Israel and then other tribes of the Jews. The nation called Israel now is not Israel at all, but just a name they pulled out cunningly to claim, the fact is that the educated that live in the State know this is a fact and say so and the fact is that such people who know and can comprehend it are such people who want it to become Israel !! Fact is Jesus Christ came 2000 years ago and he was the one who Holy Moses spoke of. Jesus Christ said and did everything that we need to become Israel servants of God and people of God, we don’t need the 2ed coming and anyone who thinks we do is a fool who is lost. The so called Jews should never treat the other people in the land the way that the radical Zionist do, because it’s not of God but only of Satan’s works = the works of man. I am a Hebrew and a dedicated Christian in Christ Jesus, that’s the Holy spiritual lordship in Salvations guidance. I get people who get right in my face claiming that I can’t be a Christian, sorry I am a Hebrew Christian Israel and you know what I have no interest in the land as I don’t need it. I have the Holy Sprit ! what more do you need, you don’t need the land if you are in our Lords grace. Nathaniel was full of Grace as was Emanuel Christ Jesus Mother Mary, now they all is what you call Jews are they not ? Nathaniel was going the work at that there tree of Israel he was working to make it bear fruit and Jesus came and Nathaniel knew who Jesus was directly, you all know why Nathaniel knew don’t ya. he was a true Israel !!! of cause he would know as he was a true Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/531 "2016-07-21T06:19:23Z")
Well, that was certainly helpful. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/532 "2016-07-22T20:18:09Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > 2A. Call it cynical, but us supporting Israel actually gave/gives us leverage with Arab countries; we manipulated them to side with us instead of the USSR if they let us mediate peace deals with them and Israel, whereas had we not got involved in the ME at all, the Bolsheviks woulda had the whole region, a mostly 3rd world one, and those were very fertile ground for communism. Today, this is true, but for radical Islamists. This doesn’t even make sense. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > 1. It stands against Radical Islamic Terrorism today, which is America’s foremost foe. Radical Islamic Terror does not exist because Israel exists; it exists because of irrendentism because radical Islamists are sad the Caliphate was vanquished, almost like Putinists are sad the USSR is gone. Simplistic history. Very simplistic history. The Caliphate fell to the Turks long ago, and those who seek to restore it are a wee fraction of the Arab population. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > 1. Israel achieves things; they’re winners. They have an economy which consists of more than oil (and don’t start me on US AID; fact its their oil producing neighbors also get high US aid.) Israeli innovation still stands up to its neighbors. They are at the forefront of pharma, tech, and has produced elite innovations/inventions. “Winners.” Oh good grief. Trump? Is that you? Also, while Palestinian militants can be really stupid, understand that Menachem Begin’s Zionist organization Irgun popularized & appeared to legitimze modern non-state terrorism, which is almost always counter-productive. So, thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/533 "2016-07-22T21:56:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This doesn’t even make sense. > > Simplistic history. Very simplistic history. The Caliphate fell to the Turks long ago, and those who seek to restore it are a wee fraction of the Arab population. you mean like every global jihadist group out there, like Al Qaeda (who wanted to do it), Hizb-ut-Tahrir, and many others that existed before ISIS? Even Hamas’ members in the past have [talked caliphate](http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/4063.htm). > [@foolsguinea](#): > > “Winners.” Oh good grief. Trump? Is that you? > > Also, while Palestinian militants can be really stupid, understand that Menachem Begin’s Zionist organization Irgun popularized & appeared to legitimze modern non-state terrorism, which is almost always counter-productive. So, thanks for that. Palestinian Arab non-state terrorists did stuff to Jews (and against the British too) in the late 1920s, before Irgun ever existed. Also, Israel never exported that kind of thing. You don’t have to be Trump to know: Israel=winners who achieve things. Palestinians=losers who blow themselves up, hijack planes, murder Olympic athletes, [cheer 9/11](https://youtu.be/oMOZvbYJMvU?t=6s), steal from world charities and the UN, etc. [The American people know it to.](http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/b9hijypcf0sx_p3h9lq6qa.png) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/534 "2016-07-22T23:56:14Z")
Hoo boy. Please believe me, while I am a supporter of Israel, I want to distance myself from the simplistic jingoism on display here. (“May God preserve me from people who happen to hold the same views I do.”) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/535 "2016-07-23T00:22:11Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hoo boy. Please believe me, while I am a supporter of Israel, I want to distance myself from the simplistic jingoism on display here. > > (“May God preserve me from people who happen to hold the same views I do.”) I still remember your Pit [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=773878) ;). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/536 "2016-07-23T08:48:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hoo boy. Please believe me, while I am a supporter of Israel, I want to distance myself from the simplistic jingoism on display here. > > (“May God preserve me from people who happen to hold the same views I do.”) Trust me, many of us here in the trenches aren’t crazy about armchair Zionists like him, either. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/537 "2016-09-28T21:08:08Z")
so anti-Israel types, gonna boycott the iPhone 8? [Apple Is Developing Hardware for the 'iPhone 8' in Israel](http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-developing-iphone-8-in-israel-2016-9) Yet another example why Israel is a winner country, not a loser one like the Palestinians and pretty much the rest of the region’s nations; they produce innovation, not Islam terror jihad. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/538 "2016-09-28T21:56:06Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > so anti-Israel types, gonna boycott the iPhone 8? [Apple Is Developing Hardware for the 'iPhone 8' in Israel - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-developing-iphone-8-in-israel-2016-9) > > Yet another example why Israel is a winner country, not a loser one like the Palestinians and pretty much the rest of the region’s nations; they produce innovation, not Islam terror jihad. If you are going to throw turds without any substance into the thread, go open your own thread in The BBQ Pit, do not clutter up Great Debates with your smears. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/539 "2016-09-29T05:22:38Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Israel/Palestinians: Your Take Well, we could try putting an end to the butchering infant penile prepuce as flesh tributes to a delusion… You know, as kind of a symbolic gesture to sanity (a minor, peripheral offshoot being the preservation of the sanctity of a child’s body… there’s always a trade-off :rolleyes:), that may lubricate the way towards more constructive dialogue; and perhaps even interlocution rooted in corporeal reality, not so much in the ethereal ether… Who knows. Of course, we could also invent a ‘time machine’ (ironically, perhaps more likely an outcome than eradicating cancerous ideology) and use it to go back to the 19th century ― to before the Rothschild-funded robber barons threw together the Balfour Declaration ― and stop the brazen theft of the disputed “holy” wasteland in question from its extant inhabitants―all in order to gift it to another brain-rot-deluded / “chosen” people… This could also work. However, _my_ shiny shekel is being put on continued prevarication, vacillation and Zionist lobby \*\*$\*\*uppli¢ation; at least for the rest of the lives of anyone frequenting this discussion forum. (✡ ⊆ †) ⊇ ☪ ≡ 💀 ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/540 "2016-09-29T06:00:27Z")
I propose we put iLemming in charge of the negotiations. The translators will be so confused, they’ll have to just figure it out amongst themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=28)