# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/41 "2016-03-25T13:02:56Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I didn’t watch the video, but judging from the title, it shows a woman destroying an Israeli flag. It is apparently non-violent protest. This trips your outrage meter why? Because it’s disrespectful. She then put a Palestinian one in its place. Most people would call that rude, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/42 "2016-03-25T13:12:38Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Because it’s disrespectful. She then put a Palestinian one in its place. Most people would call that rude, to say the least. So disrespect, or rudeness, towards Israel proves that America should stand with Israel? Weak sauce. I certainly support the right of Israel to exist. That does not mean I have to support every action or every stance of the government of Israel, nor does it mean that disrespect towards Israel should be a factor in my view on the subject. Believe it or not, Israel is not universally loved, even outside the Middle East. What I find odd is that you seem to have, as the most important thing to you in your political views, unwavering, unflinching, and uncritical support of the current government of a country that is not even your own. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/43 "2016-03-25T14:03:21Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Because it’s disrespectful. The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization. – Sigmund Freud ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/44 "2016-03-25T14:14:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Because it’s disrespectful. She then put a Palestinian one in its place. Most people would call that rude, to say the least. What does the disrespect of a single person have anything to do with the larger picture? There are disrespectful Palestinians, and disrespectful Israelis. Disrespect is far from the worst thing going on in the region. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/45 "2016-03-25T14:54:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > **Grumman** ’s post is very, very cynical, and features very little faith in the basic goodness of the human nature. On the other hand, this is the Middle East. No matter how cynical you get, there’s no way you’re even close to being cynical enough. > > So yeah, I pretty much agree with him. And furthermore, seeing as I’m the only Israeli voter in this thread, I’m the only person here you have to convince otherwise. So go ahead. Convince me to give people who utterly hate me power over my life. Convince me that I should allow my country to turn into another Syria, Lebanon or Iraq. Knock yourself out. Easy. You’re Jewish, aren’t you? Doesn’t the present plight of the Palestinians under your insane Apartheid-regime make you feel . . . **guilty?** 😉 No, seriously, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/46 "2016-03-25T15:15:16Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > What I find odd is that you seem to have, as the most important thing to you in your political views, unwavering, unflinching, and uncritical support of the current government of a country that is not even your own. Because one’s Israel/Palestinians’ view is a reflection of world view, intellectual clarity, and moral compass, not just some issue. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/47 "2016-03-25T15:31:53Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Because one’s Israel/Palestinians’ view is a reflection of world view, intellectual clarity, and moral compass, not just some issue. As a Zionist and a Jew, I’d say this is a broad overreach. It’s an important issue, but serious, earnest, intelligent people can and do disagree on some basic points. I’d say your choosing this issue to be the ultimate touchstone of morality says more about you than it does about others. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/48 "2016-03-25T15:59:37Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Because one’s Israel/Palestinians’ view is a reflection of world view, intellectual clarity, and moral compass, not just some issue. I usually skip commenting in the Israel/Palestine threads because they are so full of bullshit, but what you’ve said there is just absurd. If one can’t acknowledge serious failings on both sides of this issue, then THAT is the indictment of one’s world view, intellectual clarity, moral compass, and I would add intellectual honesty. I was roundly criticized on this board once for saying this, but I stand by it: As “nations,”\* both Israel and Palestine are assholes, and we should back off and express our eternal willingness to play neutral moderator. But there simply isn’t any moral high ground there, just one big gutter, and we should stay out of that gutter. \*Word chosen to indicate the entities, not the people ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/49 "2016-03-25T16:25:15Z")
Here’s my view. An Israeli soldier has just been arrested and charged with shooting a Palestinian lying on the ground. The day the Palestinian authority arrest and charge a Palestinian for shooting an unarmed Israeli is the day there might be hope for peace between Arabs and Jews. One only has to follow [Palestinian Media Watch](http://www.palwatch.org/pages/aboutus.aspx) to see the hateful antisemitic propaganda with which the Palestinian Authority indoctrinates their kids, much of it worthy of Julius Streicher and Der Sturmer. The poisonous crap they fill the heads of their young with will ensure that peace will be postponed for at least another generation. If young Arabs truly believe that Israelis are devils how are they going to negotiate with them? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/50 "2016-03-25T18:02:45Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > name me more than one Muslim majority/plurality country on the face of the Earth that Freedom House [rates](https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/FH_FITW_Report_2016.pdf) as an electoral democracy. On quick check for 2016: Bangladesh Comoros Ivory Coast Senegal Niger Sierra Leone Indonesia Pakistan Albania Bosnia Turkey Tunisia I left out places like Tanzania where it isn’t clear who has a plurality. Since I’m sure you thought your cite would prove otherwise, I think you should re-check the difference between what Freedom House rates as “free” and what they consider “electoral democracies.” That second category is much broader than I suspect you [thought it was](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electoral_democracies.png). See at the bottom of this [page](https://freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world) to see the actual list. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/51 "2016-03-25T18:52:12Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Here’s my view. An Israeli soldier has just been arrested and charged with shooting a Palestinian lying on the ground. The day the Palestinian authority arrest and charge a Palestinian for shooting an unarmed Israeli is the day there might be hope for peace between Arabs and Jews. Would the PA, as opposed to Israeli military courts, even have jurisdiction over such a crime? > [@](#): > > One only has to follow [Palestinian Media Watch](http://www.palwatch.org/pages/aboutus.aspx) to see the hateful antisemitic propaganda with which the Palestinian Authority indoctrinates their kids, much of it worthy of Julius Streicher and Der Sturmer. The poisonous crap they fill the heads of their young with will ensure that peace will be postponed for at least another generation. If young Arabs truly believe that Israelis are devils how are they going to negotiate with them? This is one of many, many things that must change in order for peace to be possible. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/52 "2016-03-25T21:35:11Z")
Tamerlane, Yea there are nearly zero free Muslim countries. Israel is and always has been free. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/53 "2016-03-25T21:58:12Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Tamerlane, Yea there are nearly zero free Muslim countries. As of 2016 there are two by Freedom House’s particular metric - Senegal and Tunisia. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/54 "2016-03-25T22:03:11Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Israel is and always has been free. Provided one overlooks the millions of decidedly unfree people occupied by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/55 "2016-03-25T22:09:21Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > As of 2016 there are two by Freedom House’s particular metric - Senegal and Tunisia. why I said nearly zero, not to mention both of those have only been ranked as such in the past few years; Israel has for decades, for FH’s entire existence. Not to mention, those countries don’t face the kind of threats Israel does. On the ED thing, many of those countries only started getting that rating, and its stability is shaky. Tho I do give u props for being civil [QUOTE=Human Action] Provided one overlooks the millions of decidedly unfree people occupied by Israel. [/QUOTE] If the Palestinians would stop engaging in radical Islamic terror, as they have since Zionism began, Israel wouldn’t need to occupy them. And once Israel does leave the West Bank, “Palestine” will be just another Islamic hell hole, in all likeliness. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/56 "2016-03-25T22:26:51Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > If the Palestinians would stop engaging in radical Islamic terror, as they have since Zionism began, Israel wouldn’t need to occupy them. Israel **doesn’t** need to occupy them. They choose to, and it hasn’t exactly solved anything, now has it? > [@](#): > > And once Israel does leave the West Bank, “Palestine” will be just another Islamic hell hole, in all likeliness. Post-colonial countries often have a lot of problems, but a) that’s no justification for colonialism and b) one can hardly imagine things being worse for the Palestinians than they are now. Their governments are a joke, their employment prospects are dismal, they are subject to military courts with a \>99% conviction rate…a hell hole would be a step up. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/57 "2016-03-25T22:31:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Israel **doesn’t** need to occupy them. They choose to, and it hasn’t exactly solved anything, now has it? > > Post-colonial countries often have a lot of problems, but a) that’s no justification for colonialism and b) one can hardly imagine things being worse for the Palestinians than they are now. Their governments are a joke, their employment prospects are dismal, they are subject to military courts with a \>99% conviction rate…a hell hole would be a step up. The effects of colonialism in non-Muslim countries was far worse than in Muslim countries, which did not experience anywhere close to the kind of exploitation as the non-Muslim ones. And the British/French were in the Middle East for much less time in a much less involved way than in Africa. Even for that, the non-Muslim formerly colonized ones are much more civilized than the Muslim ones. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/58 "2016-03-25T22:43:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > If the Palestinians would stop engaging in radical Islamic terror, as they have since Zionism began, Israel wouldn’t need to occupy them. Israel does **not** need to occupy them. Some in this thread have argued that a one-state solution would be an existential threat to Israel. Even if that is true, a two-state solution would not be. Israel is not holding on to the WB because an independent Palestine would be any substantial military threat to Israel, they’re holding on to it because the “Greater Israel” notion dating from when they took the territory has not yet quite died out and, more importantly, the Jewish settlements planted on the WB pursuant to that idea are still there. Perhaps **Alessan** can correct me, but I’m sure there must still be many stubborn-stupid Israelis who still refer to the WB as “Judea and Samaria” and I’m sure some of them must sit in the Knesset. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/59 "2016-03-25T22:43:55Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > The effects of colonialism in non-Muslim countries was far worse than in Muslim countries, which did not experience anywhere close to the kind of exploitation as the non-Muslim ones. And the British/French were in the Middle East for much less time in a much less involved way than in Africa. Eh? 45% of Africans are Muslim. Exploitation of Africa included exploitation of Muslims. > [@](#): > > Even for that, the non-Muslim formerly colonized ones are much more civilized than the Muslim ones. Are you claiming that Muslim civilizations are impossible, or what? What changed post-colonialism? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/60 "2016-03-25T22:53:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Eh? 45% of Africans are Muslim. Exploitation of Africa included exploitation of Muslims. Let me better phrase this: Sub-Saharan Africa (mainly Christian/indigenous religions) got it much worse than the North Africans, where the bulk of the Muslims and Muslim majority countries are. [A lot more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Africa#Religious_distribution) African countries are Christian than Muslim. Those countries have were colonized by Europeans for longer, and have a lot more divided societies. North Africa’s consequences of Euro-colonization pale compared to the rest of the continent. Christianity is easily the [dominant religion](http://www.pewforum.org/2010/04/15/executive-summary-islam-and-christianity-in-sub-saharan-africa/) in Subsahara, and by ratios. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=4)