# Israel/Palestinians: Your Take **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840 "2016-03-22T07:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Commodore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Commodore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commodore)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/141 "2016-05-19T06:30:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > **Commodore** : There may be language issues involved, but I honestly cannot understand what you are saying. > > I think you are saying that modern Israel is not the “Zion” that the Old Testament prophecies. For many of us, that’s easy: of course it isn’t. It’s a nation-state, with strong protections for the Jewish religion built into its constitution. But that’s easy, because many of us do not believe in OT (or NT) prophecy. > > It’s as easy as saying that the U.S. and Russia are not Gog and Magog, and the Roman Catholic Church is not the Dragon. Well, of course they aren’t! > > Alas, there are quite a few people who believe that modern Israel is somehow the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Everyone is entitled to his own faith, I guess. So far, no one has re-built the Temple, so the prophecy has a few holes in it. Sure. All Israelites should believe in the OT or why you come ! who are this people who don’t believe. I know a person that makes claims to be some sort of a Christian fundamentalist Jews for Jesus mob and he goes totally nuts, if one was to say to him that the State was not the fulfilment of prophecy and he claims to be of Jewish blood, but does not know for sure. He wants all the people out of all the old lands that are not Jews and just kicked out or killed as they have no rights to be there at all he says and if he can bring WW3 on he will do his utmost to make it happen. The orthodox Jews say it’s not Israel. I say if you are not a believer in the OT you are not a Jew, as a Jew means a people of God, does it not ? If one is not a people of God then what are they ? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/142 "2016-05-19T16:06:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t think the Israeli-Palestinian difficulties accounts for very much of the motivation for present day terrorism. Sykes-Picot is pretty old stuff, do you believe it has any present relevance? While his arguments are exceptionally stupid and do little to inspire confidence in his knowledge or understanding of the situation, yes the Sykes-Picot agreement, the Balfour Declaration and similar agreements are extremely relevant in understanding the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis. I’m still a bit amused by his seeming belief that Christian Palestinians don’t hate the Israelis/Jews at least as much as the Muslim Palestinians. This isn’t about religion, it’s about competing nationalism, land, power and anger over past issues. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/143 "2016-05-19T16:07:32Z")
> [@Commodore](#): > > Sure. > All Israelites should believe in the OT or why you come ! who are this people who don’t believe. > > I know a person that makes claims to be some sort of a Christian fundamentalist Jews for Jesus mob and he goes totally nuts, if one was to say to him that the State was not the fulfilment of prophecy and he claims to be of Jewish blood, but does not know for sure. > He wants all the people out of all the old lands that are not Jews and just kicked out or killed as they have no rights to be there at all he says and if he can bring WW3 on he will do his utmost to make it happen. > > The orthodox Jews say it’s not Israel. > I say if you are not a believer in the OT you are not a Jew, as a Jew means a people of God, does it not ? > If one is not a people of God then what are they ? You do realize that the Jews don’t refer to “the Old Testament” don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/144 "2016-05-19T16:39:53Z")
> [@Commodore](#): > > I say if you are not a believer in the OT you are not a Jew, as a Jew means a people of God, does it not ? But why? Believing in God or the particulars of the Torah has never really been major defining aspect of who is a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/145 "2016-05-20T08:43:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m still a bit amused by his seeming belief that Christian Palestinians don’t hate the Israelis/Jews at least as much as the Muslim Palestinians. That was definitely the case in the past, but I’m not sure it still applies. Sure, they still don’t like Israelis at all, but relations between Palestinian Christians and Muslims have become pretty frayed in recent years, mostly due to the recent rise of Muslim fundamentalism. I suspect that many (albeit certainly not all, or even most) Christian Palestinians would prefer to be a minority in Jewish state than a minority in a Hamas-led state. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/146 "2016-05-20T11:11:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m still a bit amused by his seeming belief that Christian Palestinians don’t hate the Israelis/Jews at least as much as the Muslim Palestinians. > > This isn’t about religion, it’s about competing nationalism, land, power and anger over past issues. The non-Muslim Palestinians largely go along with the Islamic Palestinian agenda because of historical dhimmitude, and their roots being in Muslim-led society (devil you know better than one you don’t) and hearing their propaganda. Fact is the first Palestinian leader Hajj Al-Husseini was a Mufti (holy man), Edward Said (a Palestinian “Christian” faux-historian and Islamist apologist) admitted [Said indeed was the general leader of all Palestinian Arabs](https://books.google.com/books?id=wELzivMr_-cC&pg=PA248&lpg=PA248&dq=%E2%80%9Crepresented+the+Palestinian+Arab+national+consensus.%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=JmfBchWmEG&sig=JZxa2gmjUtEGm4qLGvDTvMKmJXw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpzoikwejMAhWM7oMKHe7UCBsQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Crepresented%20the%20Palestinian%20Arab%20national%20consensus.%E2%80%9D&f=false). Another ambassador, from Iraq (not Palestine) also [made it about Islam at the UN](https://web.archive.org/web/20111101151203/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/93DCDF1CBC3F2C6685256CF3005723F2): > [@](#): > > Harmony prevails among Moslems, Christians and Jews. But any injustice imposed upon the Arabs of Palestine will disturb the harmony among Jews and non-Jews in Iraq Was that some kind of threat? Sure sounded like one. Here’s another gem: > [@](#): > > Any regime which does not meet with _Islamic consent_ might disturb inter-religious harmony. Thus, the partition of Palestine revives problems with which we need not engage ourselves today. Yep, a threat. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/147 "2016-05-20T18:01:29Z")
I guess by [criticizing Netanyahu and his administration](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/israel-defense-chief-quits_us_573f0acbe4b045cc9a70a673) far, far more harshly than Obama ever has, Netanyahu’s defense minister Moshe Ya’alon is “dishonoring” Israel, based on **DerekMichaels00** ’s criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/148 "2016-05-20T18:27:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I guess by [criticizing Netanyahu and his administration](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/israel-defense-chief-quits_us_573f0acbe4b045cc9a70a673) far, far more harshly than Obama ever has, Netanyahu’s defense minister Moshe Ya’alon is “dishonoring” Israel, based on **DerekMichaels00** ’s criteria. No, it is only when the black and therefore illegitimate President of the US does it. The hypocrisy is deafening. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/149 "2016-05-20T18:32:06Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > The non-Muslim Palestinians largely go along with the Islamic Palestinian agenda because of historical dhimmitude, it is nice, the white-splaining to tell the Palestinian christians who get expropriated by the settlers why they were of the most radical opponents… > [@](#): > > Edward Said (a Palestinian “Christian” faux-historian and Islamist apologist) How very Takfiri style to de-christianise Edward Said because of your ill informed religious prejudices. But since you can write that the justification for the Americaatomic bombings was saving the Japanese from the Communism via the soviet attacks the Americans themselves engineered… well we can expect such strange ahistorical logics. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/150 "2016-05-20T19:09:08Z")
It is worth adding that this person’s assertion of the Palestinian christian position has not the historical support, it was in fact the Palestinian christians - particularly the [Orthodox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falastin_(newspaper)) who drove the emergence of the Palestinian identity as a national group, and it was not the muslim community but them who were the most violently opposed to the settlement projects in the Ottomans and then the Mandate. it is a typically ahistorical american christianist type view to “explain” the self-decisions of the Palestinian christian communities as “dhimmitude” reflecting more the american prejudices than any thing concrete or actual history. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/151 "2016-05-20T19:10:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I guess by [criticizing Netanyahu and his administration](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/israel-defense-chief-quits_us_573f0acbe4b045cc9a70a673) far, far more harshly than Obama ever has, Netanyahu’s defense minister Moshe Ya’alon is “dishonoring” Israel, based on **DerekMichaels00** ’s criteria. there is an honorable political center in the israel which still gives me hope for a settlement. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/152 "2016-05-20T19:25:22Z")
Onomatopoeia: > [@](#): > > No, it is only when the black and therefore illegitimate President of the US does it. The hypocrisy is deafening. George H.W. Bush and James Baker were heavily criticized by pro-Israel groups for not being sufficiently agreeable to Shamir in their time. There’s no reason to make it into a racial thing. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/153 "2016-05-20T19:53:57Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > George H.W. Bush and James Baker were heavily criticized by pro-Israel groups for not being sufficiently agreeable to Shamir in their time. There’s no reason to make it into a racial thing. I think the comment is pointing out that the OP only objects to Obama making these statements because he’s overwhelmingly critical of Obama. I can’t say if the OP’s irrational treatment of the current President is racially motivated, but it’s certainly a possibility based on his posting history. I don’t think it was meant to be a general commentary on criticism of Israel by others. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/154 "2016-05-20T20:18:33Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > No, it is only when the black and therefore illegitimate President of the US does it. The hypocrisy is deafening. there you go; every criticism of Obama has some racism behind it. Even tho I also never condoned the white uber-progressives who also engage in disproportionate and obsessive criticism of Israel. I don’t care what race an Israel-hater is, or what race a panderer to Israel haters (like Obama) is. I don’t condone Michael Moore’s hate of Israel, or Robert Fisk, Jimmy Carter, George Galloway, Jeremy Corbyn, Cindy Sheehan, and in fact, those last 5 are IMO a lot, A LOT worse than Obama in terms of anti-Israel thought… > [@cmkeller](#): > > Onomatopoeia: > > George H.W. Bush and James Baker were heavily criticized by pro-Israel groups for not being sufficiently agreeable to Shamir in their time. There’s no reason to make it into a racial thing. Well said; a reason I don’t think much of George HW Bush, a failure of a President on every level, especially Israel/Palestinians, not that Shamir was great. But George HW Bush rushed the world into Madrid as some kind of reward for the Arab nations stopping Saddam’s attempt to take them over, which lead to Oslo at a time when Palestinian leadership wasn’t about peace, given what happened when Arafat was offered a final settlement in 2000, which he rejected. Clinton only went with the facts on the ground in 1993, even tho the damage from Madrid occurred in 1991-1993 (including the parts before Jan 20 of that year, when Clinton was inaugurated), but at least did what Clinton did what he could and publicly stood by Israel, and he treated Netanyahu better than Bush did Shamir or Obama and Netanyahu. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/155 "2016-05-20T20:54:01Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > …some kind of reward for the Arab nations stopping Saddam’s attempt to take them over, … you seem to live in a strange fantasy world. Sadaam Hussien id not try to take over “the arab nations” - he invaded the Kuwait emirate, which the Iraqis had long claimed (it was indeed part of the Basra Wilaya until separating under the British protection, not to defend the idiocy of the invasion). You write strangely badly informed fictions. the amount of false and bizarrely distorted nonsense you put down is impressive ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/156 "2016-05-20T20:58:03Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > … I can’t say if the OP’s irrational treatment of the current President is racially motivated, but it’s certainly a possibility based on his posting history. … the weirdly racialised comments about the anti colonial politics and the decolonisation all convey a strong sense of the racial animus. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/157 "2016-05-20T21:20:54Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > there you go; every criticism of Obama has some racism behind it. No – but there’s something aside from facts behind your criticism of Obama, since none of it has anything to do with facts. You are always wrong when you criticize him on Israel or race, and consistently fail miserably to justify your criticism. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/158 "2016-05-29T03:09:30Z")
one interesting thing about this issue; while white liberals claim that Israel and the Palestinians is like “white on dark-skin colonialism,” blacks and Hispanics support Israel: [http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2016/05/FT\_16.05.20\_IsraelPalestiniansC\_religion.png](http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2016/05/FT_16.05.20_IsraelPalestiniansC_religion.png) [http://www.people-press.org/files/2014/07/NEW-7-15-2014-11-00-38-AM.png](http://www.people-press.org/files/2014/07/NEW-7-15-2014-11-00-38-AM.png) Amazing how on CNN, Van Jones got away with claiming that to “people of color” the “treatment of Palestinians” was an issue. Seems like while black voters support Israel, the black political class (Van Jones, Sharpton, Jackson) don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/159 "2016-05-29T06:41:08Z")
Well, to be fair, while literally _every_ demographic favors Israel overall (and most overwhelmingly), blacks and Hispanics have the highest rate of support for Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840/160 "2016-05-29T07:17:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Well, to be fair, while literally _every_ demographic favors Israel overall (and most overwhelmingly), blacks and Hispanics have the highest rate of support for Palestine. there is historically wrought relations between blacks and Jews, remember, so its not a surprise that the level of support for Palestinians is slightly higher among blacks than whites. Also, it seems that the black political class tends to have a lot of anti-Semitism; Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, and Al Sharpton being good examples (those guys don’t just hate Israel, they’ve gotten into overt anti-Semitism multiple times). But a win is a win; the first poll had blacks with Israel 59-19, a 40 point margin that would also win 50 states if Israel and Palestinians were presidential candidates. [Here’s MLK](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvr2Cxuh2Wk) on the “racist apartheid state”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-palestinians-your-take/749840.md?page=9)