# Israel plans new WB settlement -- in the Jordan Valley!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 27, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791 "2006-12-27T21:51:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/1 "2006-12-27T21:51:02Z")
[**Sevastopol**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8094310&postcount=77) brought this to my attention. [Story](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/27/world/middleeast/27mideast.html?hp&ex=1167282000&en=890b02aafc8a9597&ei=5094&partner=homepage):
> [@](#):
>
> The defense minister, Amir Peretz, the dovish leader of the Labor Party, gave his approval to a promise made by his predecessor — Shaul Mofaz, the current transport minister — that houses would be built on the site of an army base in the northern Jordan Valley to resettle some Israelis forced to leave settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005, according to a Defense Ministry official.
:eek: The Jordan Valley?! That’s not only east of the Green Line, it’s east of the [Wall!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier) How can they do this and expect anyone believe they have any intention of allowing “independent” Palestine an open border with Jordan?!
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### Author:  [@Don26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don26)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/2 "2006-12-27T22:18:16Z")
Reality check! Israel, after beating off the nations who attacked her, CAPTURED LAND. THIS is how nations get more land! To imply Israel cannot use the land they captured in accordance with EONS of world history, is not only asinine, it is obviously a sign of some deeper bias.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/3 "2006-12-27T22:50:02Z")
[QUOTE=Don26]
…is not only asinine, it is obviously a sign of some deeper bias.
[/QUOTE]
Please, Don, let’s not start with the “disagreeing with the government of Isreal” = “antisemitism” bullshit.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/4 "2006-12-27T22:54:53Z")
No, this is stupidity. This is the time to be making good faith moves to diminish settlements, if for no other reason than to support the potential ascendancy of pragmatic forces as represented by Abbas.
Dumb dumb dumb.
And here is where Israel’s own best interests would be served by an American administration willing to slap her down some.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/5 "2006-12-27T23:00:17Z")
[QUOTE=Don26]
Reality check! Israel, after beating off the nations who attacked her, CAPTURED LAND. THIS is how nations get more land! To imply Israel cannot use the land they captured in accordance with EONS of world history, is not only asinine, it is obviously a sign of some deeper bias.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: I recall answering that fatuous and atavistic argument [in another thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8092842&postcount=169) though you might have missed it . . .
But the point is that the Israeli government has **repeatedly declared its intention** of allowing the Palestinians their independence, eventually. This latest decision moves one to doubt their sincerity.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/6 "2006-12-27T23:00:33Z")
Amen, **DSeid**. It’s pure chain jerking.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/7 "2006-12-27T23:03:12Z")
How is this the Defense Minister’s decision and announcement, not the Prime Minister’s?
And is this announcement really more than an attempt to placate domestic criticism from the hardline Eretz Israel types?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/8 "2006-12-27T23:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
And is this announcement really more than an attempt to placate domestic criticism from the hardline Eretz Israel types?
[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t matter, if they’re actually going to **do** it!
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/9 "2006-12-27T23:18:19Z")
We don’t know that yet.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/10 "2006-12-27T23:25:37Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
And is this announcement really more than an attempt to placate domestic criticism from the hardline Eretz Israel types?
[/QUOTE]
_Every_ settlement has been a bone to throw to minority views on the right … and together they’ve created this great idiocy. The difference now is that Kadima was voted in on a platform of _disengagement_ and marginalized those views.
Idiots.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/11 "2006-12-27T23:41:01Z")
Meanwhile, the [Christian Friends of Israel Communities](http://www.cfoic.com/index.asp?mainpage=projfocus&id=420) are soliciting donations to help ousted Gaza settlers relocate to Maskiot.
[This cite](http://www.shirat-hayam.org/en/now.aspx) has a map showing Maskiot’s location, if you can read Hebrew, but I guess the black arrow makes it clear enough.
Based on map on [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) page, the Israelis already have a **lot** of settlements in the Jordan Valley.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/12 "2006-12-28T00:22:04Z")
The U.S., for once, is [opposing the plan.](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27458396.htm)
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/13 "2006-12-28T03:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
How is this the Defense Minister’s decision and announcement, not the Prime Minister’s?
[/QUOTE]
I dunno–is this in an area administered by the Israeli Military?
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/14 "2006-12-28T06:48:05Z")
[QUOTE=Don26]
Reality check! Israel, after beating off the nations who attacked her, CAPTURED LAND. THIS is how nations get more land! To imply Israel cannot use the land they captured in accordance with EONS of world history, is not only asinine, it is obviously a sign of some deeper bias.
[/QUOTE]
But speaking from a basically pragmatic (and pro-Zionist) point of view, the [West Bank](https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html#People) and [Gaza](https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html#People) have nearly 4 million Arabs living on them (and population growth rates of over 3% in both sections); [Israel](https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html#People) itself only has 6 million and change (and a considerably lower growth rate). What do you propose Israel do with (or to) all those people? I’m guessing you’re not a fan of the idea that Israel just grant them all citizenship (and I would certainly think that to be deeply impractical, although the position has vocal defenders on this board). But all the other alternatives other than Palestinian statehood range from deeply unpleasant on down.
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### Author:  [@Don26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don26)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/15 "2006-12-28T06:53:48Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner]
But speaking from a basically pragmatic (and pro-Zionist) point of view, the [West Bank](https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html#People) and [Gaza](https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html#People) have nearly 4 million Arabs living on them (and population growth rates of over 3% in both sections); [Israel](https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html#People) itself only has 6 million and change (and a considerably lower growth rate). What do you propose Israel do with (or to) all those people? I’m guessing you’re not a fan of the idea that Israel just grant them all citizenship (and I would certainly think that to be deeply impractical, although the position has vocal defenders on this board). But all the other alternatives other than Palestinian statehood range from deeply unpleasant on down.
[/QUOTE]
Unlike the arabs in the neighborhood, Israel has NEVER expressed a desire to exterminate ANYONE. I’d imagine if palestinian groups stopped shooting rockets into Israel and actually stopped shooting during cease fires that they beg for, Israel would be more than happy to live in peace with them. There are a great many arab citizens of Israel, some even elected to the whateveritscalled legislature ( I can NEVER remember that word) . Its pretty unlikely that there will be peace anytime soon as the terrorist group Hamas is the elected government of the palestinian territories…
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/16 "2006-12-28T07:02:04Z")
[QUOTE=Don26]
Unlike the arabs in the neighborhood, Israel has NEVER expressed a desire to exterminate ANYONE. I’d imagine if palestinian groups stopped shooting rockets into Israel and actually stopped shooting during cease fires that they beg for, Israel would be more than happy to live in peace with them. There are a great many arab citizens of Israel, some even elected to the whateveritscalled legislature ( I can NEVER remember that word) . Its pretty unlikely that there will be peace anytime soon as the terrorist group Hamas is the elected government of the palestinian territories…
[/QUOTE]
My point is, it’s going to be pretty hard for Israel to _ever_ have peace with the Palestinians if the Israeli settlers and their allies are allowed to create “facts on the ground” that make it geographically impossible for there to be an Israel alongside an independent but peace-loving Palestine (when or if such a thing arises).
It might be one thing for Israel to say, as long as you keep shooting rockets at us, we’ll keep carrying out military raids against the bases in your territory used to launch attacks; even that we’ll militarily occupy your country and maintain _military_ garrisons there. But the civilian settlements Israel has established scattered throughout the West Bank (in territory Israel has never formally annexed) make it hard to see what a permanent peace would even look like: Israel can’t very well annex 4 million Palestinians and remain Israel; I agree with you that I don’t think Israel will just carry out genocide in the occupied territories; but that leaves them stuck with permanently occupying or semi-occupying a territory with millions of people who hate them, in order to protect outposts of Israeli civilians.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/17 "2006-12-28T07:32:04Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone]
Please, Don, let’s not start with the “disagreeing with the government of Isreal” = “antisemitism” bullshit.
[/QUOTE]
You know, I hear this all the time and the arguments behind it always seem weak to me. How about this: Can you tell me of one other state in the world, other than the Jewish one, where if the citizens of that state had been subjected to as long and continuously violent series of genocidal attacks as Israel has been since it’s founding, where your attitude wouldn’t be “They have every right to defend themselves against terrorists”. The U.S invaded Afghanistan to the cheers of the world, and the attack we suffered on 9/11 is tiny compared to the cumulative attacks launched on Israel over the last 60 years. So, if it isn’t antisemitism…what is it? Why is Israel held to such impossibly high standards while the Palestinians are held to none at all?
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### Author:  [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/18 "2006-12-28T07:52:12Z")
There has never been even one genocidal attack on Israel.
Not invading other people homes and driving them out for your own pleasure is an impossibly high standard?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/19 "2006-12-28T09:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
There has never been even one genocidal attack on Israel.
[/QUOTE]
There has never been a successful genocidal attack on Israel.
Had the wars of 1948, 1956, or 1967 been successful, I suspect that we would have at least one genocidal attack to look back on.
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> You know, I hear this all the time and the arguments behind it always seem weak to me.
Your statement is unclear.
There are two separate phenomena: Some undefined (but not insignificant) number of people do attack Israel’s policies and right to exist based on anti-semitic impulse; some small (but significant) number of defenders of Israel use the first phenomenon as a base on which to claim that all attacks on Israeli policies are, themselves, based on anti-semitism.
When **Don26** claims that any opposition to Israeli policy is “obviously a sign of some deeper bias,” he certainly appears to be aligning himself with those who demonstrate the second phenomenon. Your response to **dropzone** is not sufficiently elaborated to make it clear whether you actually agree with **Don26** ’s apparent claim of “obvious” “bias” or whether you are making some other point.
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### Author:  [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)
#### Post date: [December 28, 2006, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-plans-new-wb-settlement-in-the-jordan-valley/385791/20 "2006-12-28T11:03:50Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
There has never been a successful genocidal attack on Israel. …
Had the wars of 1948, 1956, or 1967 been successful, I suspect that we would have at least one genocidal attack to look back on.
[/QUOTE]
That’s nice. Shall I tell you of my own suspicions and snuggle up for chocolate and a night of fantastical ghost stories or, shall we instead, as an alternative, consider the extradordinary evidence which is singularly lacking in support of **Weirddave’s** claims?
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
When **Don26** claims that any opposition to Israeli policy is “obviously a sign of some deeper bias,” he certainly appears to be aligning himself with those who demonstrate the second phenomenon. Your response to **dropzone** is not sufficiently elaborated to make it clear whether you actually agree with **Don26** ’s apparent claim of “obvious” “bias” or whether you are making some other point.
[/QUOTE]
[**Clairobscur’s** rule!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=388466)
> [@](#):
>
> it’s quite simple. From now on, I will apply my own variation of the Godwin Law. I will assume that the slightest hint of an accusation of antisemitism, directed at me or at anybody else, which isn’t prompted by a direct and prejudiced statement specifically about _Jews_ and only about Jews, not about Mr X who happens to be a Jew or an Israeli, means that the poster who made it lost the argument and after calling him on it, will completely ignore whatever else he has to say about the issue at hand. That’s for my own peace of mind, in order to avoid arguing with people who use this “debating tactic”, be it out of paranoïa, ignorance or malice.
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