# Israel ready to attack Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685 "2012-02-03T21:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/402 "2012-02-14T20:16:59Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Oh no, you don’t resort to _ad hominem_ at all. Once again, you don’t seem to understand the concept of what constitutes an _ad hominem_ attack and what doesn’t. Now that fact is you’ve made several stupid comments on this thread. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you are stupid and I haven’t attacked you or made any personal comments about you. Now, you’ve been arguing that you see no difference between a Zionist and a non-Zionist. Additionally you’ve argued that if Israel wanted it could have Iran nuked and you refused to address the fact that Brazil and I both refuted your statement. Those of us familiar with Israel-American relations recognize that the US not only didn’t support Israel during the Suez-Sinai War, but forced her to withdraw from Egypt. We also recognize that Israel couldn’t get the US to pressure Nasser into not going to war with Israel in 1967, couldn’t get the US to pressure Jordan into not attacking, and couldn’t get the US to help them out during the war. It’s also worth noting that Israel couldn’t get the US to not pressure it into withdrawing from Lebanon after invading in both the 70s and later the 80s. In fact, Israel couldn’t even pressure the US to move its Embassy to Jerusalem or release Jonathan Pollard. Yet, you’re arguing the same Israel government that fails at all that can get the US to launch a nuclear strike wiping out Iran. Sorry, but that is an utterly moronic argument. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/403 "2012-02-14T20:46:11Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Luckily, if I’m Israel, there are plenty of useful idiots on the internet who stand ready to help convince the populace that Iran poses a grave threat to the US. “Remember what they did to us in '83!” they’ll type (or '80, or however far back you need to go). Naturally they’ll be a little fuzzy about the dates involved, because they want Iran to seem like more of a current threat. By the way, do you have any examples of such “useful idiots”? One might, unsubstantiated, doubt that you read with comprehension. After all, you’ve claimed that I’m arguing in support of attacking Iran and have not comprehended why Iran launching multiple attacks against our forces, without military response from us, shows that they’re not actually being threatened by us. Absent a cite, one might just conclude that your worry about such “useful idiots” is a fantasy brought on by you repeatedly misunderstanding the function of the historical facts I’ve tried to educate you with. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/404 "2012-02-14T21:25:24Z")
False flag, truth? Make your own conclusions. [**Israel blames Hezbollah and Iran for attacks on diplomats. Is it right?**](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0213/Israel-blames-Hezbollah-and-Iran-for-attacks-on-diplomats.-Is-it-right-video) > [@](#): > > Two attempts to assassinate Israeli diplomats failed in India and Georgia today – the wife of Israel’s military attaché in Delhi was slightly injured by a bomb attached to her car, while the bomb on an Israeli diplomat’s car in Tbilisi was detected before any harm was done. > > A coincidence – two isolated swipes at Israel – seems highly unlikely. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately blamed both Iran and Hezbollah for the attack. That’s plausible, but it’s impossible to know anything for certain in the immediate aftermath of the attacks. > > \ > > So either Iran or Hezbollah, or both, are reasonable objects of suspicion in today’s attacks. But it’s hardly a secret that Israel is unpopular with a range of militant groups, many of them deeply hostile to Shiite Iran and Hezbollah. And no evidence has been provided to support the assertion. > > The obvious backdrop to all this is the growing push for a war with Iran over its nuclear program, and you can take it to the bank that these two attacks will be used in the coming days to bolster arguments that Iran is an implacable foe that can’t be reasoned with, and steps stronger than sanctions will be needed to dissuade them from their nuclear ambitions. > > (Iran insists its nuclear program is for peaceful uses only. The US intelligence establishment says there is no evidence of ongoing nuclear weapons-related work in Iran, a conclusion that many Israel and American politicians disagree with.) You be the judge. Certainly justifies – more than ever – the existence of this thread. This is not your garden-variety “attack Iran” alarm. * * * [**Propaganda and Debating Techniques**](http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#delegitimize_opponent) A course certainly not needed by any number of Usual Suspects on Israel threads – many mods & posters alike. In fact, they teach the course on an on-going basis. Don’t like it: get the boot. Though there are some quaint “yellow cards” in the works right now. Then again, you could always either learn to play the game and/or keep your trap shut. Such is life. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/405 "2012-02-14T21:31:21Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > False flag, Wow Red, yet another pullquote with no substance from you, at all. Go figure. But at least you got in a Conspiracy Theory. Yes, it’s a “false flag”. Right. Your evidence for that being…? And speaking of valuable contributions from a certain few Dopers in this thread, Spoke, you uncritically cited the comments of an unnamed American official saying that Israel was using MEK to assassinate Iranian scientists. I assume that you would credit any such anonymous reports from any such American officials, right? You didn’t simply select that one and credit it was true because it helped your argument. Didja? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/406 "2012-02-14T21:32:57Z")
…the Christian Science Monitor, hallmark of all that is right and good on this corrupt earth! -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/407 "2012-02-14T21:33:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Wow Red, yet another pullquote with no substance from you, at all. Go figure. But at least you got in a Conspiracy Theory. Yes, it’s a “false flag”. Right. Your evidence for that being…? That is **not** an honest response to **RedFury’s** post. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/408 "2012-02-14T21:35:55Z")
BTW, in case you missed this in a past thread: [**Iranian terrorist group has close US allies**](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201184132732146192.html) > [@](#): > > Something strange is happening in Washington. In August, the Obama administration is expected to announce whether it will keep the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK), an exiled Iranian group that killed American civilians and officials in the 1970s, on its foreign terrorist organisations (FTO) list. > > Known for its cult-like behavior, the MEK (also known as the People’s Mujahedin of Iran, PMOI or MKO) fought alongside Saddam Hussein’s regime against its own country during the bloody Iran-Iraq war. This is one reason why it has almost no Iranian support, even if it refers to itself as the “most popular resistance group inside Iran” on its official website. It does, however, enjoy the backing of several US heavyweights with high national security credentials… I’ll leave it up to the individual reader whether it’s worth pursuing the read. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/409 "2012-02-14T21:42:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is **not** an honest response to **RedFury’s** post. Glutton, you can’t make up a definition for the word “honest”. Red has provided yet another content free post consisting of a pullquote and, well, nothing. (And this was before his post that he made while I was composing this, which is yet another content-free post consisting of a pullquote). He also suggested that the attacks on Israel were false-flag operations. His proof for that being, nothing, at all. It’s not an honest claim to make, it’s not dishonest to point it out, and it’s less than savory to allow insinuations of “false flag” operations to pass without comment and try to slime someone for pointing out that there’s no proof offered of such a Conspiracy Theory. I might add that, unsurprisingly, Red is markedly ignorant on the topic. Iran attempting to assassinate Israelis ambassadors is hardly “non-garden variety”. There was a story out of Azerbaijan a month or two ago about the same situation. Go figure, Isreal didn’t go to war then. But Red feels he needs to blog to this thread because, well… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/410 "2012-02-14T21:42:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is **not** an honest response to **RedFury’s** post. Whatever made you think I’d get one from certain parties? Appreciate your understanding all the same. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/411 "2012-02-14T21:46:32Z")
So, found that proof yet to suggest that it was a false flag operation Red? No? How very dishonest… of anybody who’d point out that you haven’t substantiated your innuendo. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/412 "2012-02-14T21:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That is not an honest response to RedFury’s post. [/QUOTE] Why? It’s an off-topic drive by cite that provides zero evidence…merely a way for Red to try and muddy the waters a bit to prove…well, who knows what Red thinks this proves. That Israel attacked itself in a ‘false flag’ operation in order to justify an attack on Iran that Israel hasn’t launched and really doesn’t need justification for, assuming you don’t believe that Israel is also behind some sort of false UN/IAEA report about Iran’s nuclear weapons program. Or something. Seriously…the Christian Science Monitor? You believe that this is a reputable cite, especially when the article has zero actual evidence in it of, well, anything?? And that this drive-by has to be addressed in some ‘honest’ sort of way?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/413 "2012-02-14T21:48:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Glutton, you can’t make up a definition for the word “honest”. > Red has provided yet another content free post consisting of a pullquote and, well, nothing. (And this was before his post that he made while I was composing this, which is yet another content-free post consisting of a pullquote). > He also suggested that the attacks on Israel were false-flag operations. His proof for that being, nothing, at all. It’s not an honest claim to make, it’s not dishonest to point it out, and it’s less than savory to allow insinuations of “false flag” operations to pass without comment and try to slime someone for pointing out that there’s no proof offered of such a Conspiracy Theory. I might add that, unsurprisingly, Red is markedly ignorant on the topic. Iran attempting to assassinate Israelis ambassadors is hardly “non-garden variety”. There was a story out of Azerbaijan a month or two ago about the same situation. Go figure, Isreal didn’t go to war then. But Red feels he needs to blog to this thread because, well… Take a deep breath and read the article yet again for the first time. It’s all right there in black and white. Including which way you may lean after reading it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/414 "2012-02-14T21:50:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why? It’s an off-topic drive by cite that provides zero evidence…merely a way for Red to try and muddy the waters a bit to prove…well, who knows what Red thinks this proves. That Israel attacked itself in a ‘false flag’ operation in order to justify an attack on Iran that Israel hasn’t launched and really doesn’t need justification for, assuming you don’t believe that Israel is also behind some sort of false UN/IAEA report about Iran’s nuclear weapons program. Or something. > > Seriously…the Christian Science Monitor? You believe that this is a reputable cite, especially when the article has zero actual evidence in it of, well, anything?? And that this drive-by has to be addressed in some ‘honest’ sort of way?? Please list the “approved” cites we are able to use when debating this topic. That way I’ll try not to stray too far afield. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/415 "2012-02-14T21:51:28Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Take a deep breath and read the article yet again for the first time. So in other words, you argument is full of hot air, you can’t substantiate your Conspiracy Theory, and you refuse to post any facts at all supporting it. In fact, you refuse to craft an argument at all and for your last half dozen or so posts you’ve posted empty snark or empty pullquotes with no analysis at all. So… no support at all for your Conspiracy Theory. Planning on supporting it in the future, or just slinging baseless innuendo? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/416 "2012-02-14T21:53:18Z")
I need to see less bluster and implied insults from all sides here: > [@Spoke](#): > > Luckily, if I’m Israel, there are plenty of useful idiots on the internet who stand ready to help convince the populace that Iran poses a grave threat to the US. This is allowable in the abstract since it’s not necessarily a comment about posters, but it can also be read as a dig against people here. I’d think twice about this kind of wording in the future. > [@RedFury](#): > > A course certainly not needed by any number of Usual Suspects on Israel threads – many mods & posters alike. In fact, they teach the course on an on-going basis. Don’t like it: get the boot. Though there are some quaint “yellow cards” in the works right now. > > Then again, you could always either learn to play the game and/or keep your trap shut. Such is life. > [@RedFury](#): > > Whatever made you think I’d get one from certain parties? Appreciate your understanding all the same. These posts _are_ insulting to other posters and don’t add anything to the debate, so don’t do it again. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Wow Red, yet another pullquote with no substance from you, at all. Go figure. But at least you got in a Conspiracy Theory. As noted earlier in this post, all the sarcasm from everybody is not helping. Deal with the substance in the posts (or lack thereof, as you see it) and try heaping less scorn on people disagreeing with you: there’s too much heat in this thread and not enough light. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/417 "2012-02-14T21:56:47Z")
Acknowledged. To rephrase: Red, you have provided a pullquote with no real substance, added no original argument of your own, thereby adding no content to the thread except a Conspiracy Theory about a false flag operation, and provided no proof for said Conspiracy Theory. You then refused one request so far for that substantiation. And the article you pointed to has no substantiation for it, either. Give proof or retract. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/418 "2012-02-14T22:03:03Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Take a deep breath and read the article yet again for the first time. It’s all right there in black and white. Including which way you may lean after reading it. [/QUOTE] Well, let’s take a look, shall we? > [@](#): > > Both Iran and Hezbollah, the Lebanon-based militant group that receives much of its financing from Iran, make sense as prime suspects. The attacks came a day after the four-year anniversary of Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyah’s assassination in Damascus, Syria. Just a coincidence, to be sure, that it happened the day after the four-year anniversary of the death of a Hezollah leader who was assassinated in Syria. > [@](#): > > So either Iran or Hezbollah, or both, are reasonable objects of suspicion in today’s attacks. But it’s hardly a secret that Israel is unpopular with a range of militant groups, many of them deeply hostile to Shiite Iran and Hezbollah. And no evidence has been provided to support the assertion. As opposed to the massive evidence provided to back this assertion, ehe? 😛 > [@](#): > > The obvious backdrop to all this is the growing push for a war with Iran over its nuclear program, and you can take it to the bank that these two attacks will be used in the coming days to bolster arguments that Iran is an implacable foe that can’t be reasoned with, and steps stronger than sanctions will be needed to dissuade them from their nuclear ambitions. And all of this is in the backdrop of Iran’s accusations of a purported attack on their scientists AND the current ratcheting up of tension over the sanctions AND the fact that Israel has come out and said that they are seriously concerned with all of this and are considering military options. Yeah, it’s just coincidence…obviously Iran had nothing to do with it, if we ignore all of that backdrop stuff and look at the massive evidence of this article that it was really someone else that attacked Israeli officials in two separate attacks while all this stuff is happening. Iran is completely rational, after all, and no threat to anyone, blah blah blah. > [@](#): > > (Iran insists its nuclear program is for peaceful uses only. The US intelligence establishment says there is no evidence of ongoing nuclear weapons-related work in Iran, a conclusion that many Israel and American politicians disagree with.) Oh sure…and if you can’t trust Iran’s assertions of innocence over their nuclear program, who CAN you trust. Well…perhaps the UN and IAEA? I note with some irony that they weren’t mentioned in this aside…it’s a puzzlement as to why that might be. > [@](#): > > But the truth could lie elsewhere, and it’s worth keeping an open mind until evidence emerges. Israel frequently walks back early statements of blame in terror attacks. Last August, after a bloody cross-border attack from Egypt on the Israeli town of Eilat, Israel immediately blamed Hamas, the Sunni militant group that controls the Gaza Strip. Retaliatory air strikes were soon carried out on Hamas members in Gaza. At the time, Israeli officials said Hamas gunmen had crossed through tunnels into Egypt’s Sinai peninsula and made their way to Eilat from there. Well, that definitely proves…um…it proves…um. Well, nothing really. What’s the evidence that it wasn’t Hamas (which, curiously, is also a group supported by Iran)? > [@](#): > > But a month later, the Israeli Defense Forces’s analysis of the events determined that all of the attackers were Egyptian natives. Which doesn’t preclude them from being members of Hamas, afaik. Even if Israel was wrong here (let’s say they were), what does this prove, exactly? If they were wrong once they must be wrong every time? > [@](#): > > In this case, Israel’s early finger-pointing certainly makes sense. But it made sense to a certain extent after the Eilat attacks, too. In this case, pure out of the ass speculation makes sense, since it supports Red’s basic assertion of…well, who knows what it’s supposed to prove. Let’s pretend that this guy is spot on and it was someone else who attacked Israeli officials…so what? Does this prove that Iran really isn’t developing nuclear weapons? Does it prove that Israeli concerns are unfounded? Does it prove that US and European concerns are unfounded? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/419 "2012-02-14T22:09:21Z")
Red, earlier when you responded to my post regarding Walt’s defense of Arzmon’s quotes you said “some I agree”. Once again, which ones were they? Similarly, why do you seem to constantly quote anti-Semitic writers? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/420 "2012-02-14T22:18:14Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Please list the “approved” cites we are able to use when debating this topic. That way I’ll try not to stray too far afield. [/QUOTE] Well, you could start with ones that backup their speculations with some sort of data. Just as a general ballpark starting point, of course. -XT ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/421 "2012-02-14T22:28:18Z")
Israel wouldn’t intentionally injure its own people to create a casus belli. That’s just not how Israelis think. We’re talking about a country that just released a thousand criminals and terrorists in order to secure the safe release of one Jewish boy who was enlisted in the IDF. No IDF or Mossad officer would give such an order, and if one did, the order would not be obeyed. Sadly, it’s Israel’s enemies who have such casual disregard for the lives and well-being of their own people. Probably these allegations are the result of projection of this attitude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685.md?page=22)