# Israel ready to attack Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685 "2012-02-03T21:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/482 "2012-02-15T20:07:48Z")
[QUOTE=newcomer] Any question or claim that includes subjective words such as “believe” or where truth is expressed as a percentage has an answer already built-in. [/QUOTE] Huh? If you believe that I’m about to attack you, then you believe that I’m about to attack you, whether I am or not. Perception becomes reality, especially if you act on that belief, which you might do if you feel threatened enough by me to calculation that acting first is your best course. > [@](#): > > Which means, if that’s the question, what’s a debate? “Israel ready to attack Iran?” -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/483 "2012-02-15T20:08:27Z")
I love the ‘reasoning’ used by that author. > [@](#): > > Iran has strongly denied any involvement in the latest terror incidents in India, Georgia and Thailand, as well as the alleged bomb plot against the Saudi diplomat in Washington. There is plausible credibility in Iran’s denials. What would Iran gain from such action, only grief and trouble? What would Iran gain from supporting Hamas and Hezbollah, blowing up US marine barracks and Saudi buildings? Why, they must not have done it. Of course. He’s also a liar. > [@](#): > > So add it up. Bomb teams with proven US/Israeli assassination expertise and methodology What he actually “proved” is that the assassination methods are roughly similar. He does not prove “US/Israeli expertise.” Likewise, he’s less than honest when he claims that we’ve only got “assertions” that Iran is a sponsor of global terrorism. > [@](#): > > Israeli claims echo long-standing assertions by Washington and Tel Aviv that Iran is a sponsor of international terrorism. The fact that Iran sponsors Hamas and Hezbollah is not doubted by any honest analysts. None. That Red’s author is forced to question even that shows that reality is the enemy of his narrative. Unsurprisingly. “False flag” indeed. Meanwhile Red’s new response is equally absurd. What he quoted isn’t proof, it’s, at best, insinuation. Some of it is also nonsensical. If this is the spark that will ignite war… why are we still waiting on it? Are we supposed to believe that the dastardly “AIPAC/Israel propagandists” have been preparing for war for years, but now that they have their “false flag” pretext they can’t launch a few cruise missiles or sent a few sorties over to Iran? Bull, shit. And Red is still not adding any of his own analysis, simply pulling quotes. If he expects to carry his position, surely more is required than pulling quotes from dishonest hack pieces online. This is Great Debates, not a blog. One is expected to support their arguments, not to simply cite someone else’s words and then walk away. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/484 "2012-02-15T20:20:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If you believe that I’m about to attack you, then you believe that I’m about to attack you, whether I am or not. Perception becomes reality, especially if you act on that belief, which you might do if you feel threatened enough by me to calculation that acting first is your best course. Would you bow to similar logic used to justify a preemptive strike by Iran against Israel? Somehow, I sort of doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/485 "2012-02-15T20:21:01Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Any question or claim that includes subjective words such as “believe” or where truth is expressed as a percentage has an answer already built-in. I have no idea what your point is here. You made an assertion about what you thought was going on in my mind, – an assertion about my beliefs. I explained to you that you were incorrect. Anyway, please answer my questions so that I can understand your position: 1. Do you believe that Israel has at least the same right of self-defense as other states? 2. Does an “attack” include an attempt to assassinate Israeli diplomats? Does it include funding and arming terrorist groups which in turn launch rocket attacks on Israel? Also, do you feel that Israel would be certain to retaliate one hundred-fold against Iran if a 1000-person Jewish settlement on the West Bank were obliterated in a nuclear blast and the Israelis thought there were a 75% chance that Iran was behind it? Would you give the launch order if you were in charge? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/486 "2012-02-15T20:25:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …What’s ridiculous are your drive by links to purely speculative sites, many of which have a certain slant to them. We are all snide, and this topic seems to bring out the worst in everyone, regardless of side, since it’s such a rancorous topic…but you pour more personal venom into it than just about anyone else. Not venom directed at the arguments of folks you don’t agree with, but venom directed AT the people you don’t agree with…especially Finn, but not solely him. THAT is what you are being busted for. You’ve been here long enough to know the ropes…attack the post and the argument, not the poster. You can call the argument idiotic…you can’t call the poster one. No question I dislike the poster mentioned, but If you’ll follow this thread you’ll also notice I mostly ignore his insult-riddled monologues. These days it’s more boredom than anger that he manages to elicit from me. > [@](#): > > That’s entirely up to you, but you might want to consider that you are letting this particular topic get too personal, and maybe you should take some time off. That’s what I did when things got to be too personal and I started accumulating warnings (contrary to your apparent beliefs, we defenders of the US and Israel are far from protected). I’d hate to see you go, FWIW. > > -XT Thanks. I appreciate you saying that. Must admit this whole sense of '02/'03 déjà vu is almost surreal. Here I thought most of us had learnt from that. BTW, I do admit Obama has been doing his level best to stop the madness from increasing. But with pressure seemingly increasingly daily from all sides an an election in the process, I am not so sure how much longer he’ll be able to hold up. Just look at Greenwald’s [latest bit](http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/). Reads like The Onion – but sadly, it isn’t. _:::sigh::_ ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/487 "2012-02-15T20:25:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > :rolleyes: I asked you to show me where in the article evidence of the false flag operation is. You haven’t shown it. You simply relinked to the article. I’ve read the article and see no evidence to support your assertions. Anyway please quote from the article where it provides evidence for this supposed false flag operation. Just a paragraph would be fine. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/488 "2012-02-15T20:29:39Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Would you bow to similar logic used to justify a preemptive strike by Iran against Israel? Somehow, I sort of doubt it. Ah, glad you’re back. Anyway, would you mind answering my question from earlier. Please explain what you think a Zionist is and why I’m no different than one? Also, please provide evidence that my views on Israel are not different than Finn’s You’re the one who made the stupid assertion regarding me and Finn supposedly have the same views on the subject so you should be able to provide evidence to back it up. I answered your question so please answer mine. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/489 "2012-02-15T20:30:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Does an “attack” include an attempt to assassinate Israeli diplomats? Would you define an attack upon Iran by Israel to include assassination of Iranian scientists? If another nation is assassinating your scientists, would you be justified in launching a military strike in response? If not, what response _would_ be justified? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/490 "2012-02-15T20:30:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Huh? If you believe that I’m about to attack you, then you believe that I’m about to attack you, whether I am or not. Perception becomes reality, especially if you act on that belief, which you might do if you feel threatened enough by me to calculation that acting first is your best course. This is weird. I strongly believe that your response deserves “huh?” but you beat me to it. Pre-emptively, I might add. On a serious note, that kind of thinking is eff’d up. I have nothing reasonable to counter it. ---
**Author:** ![BordelDeMerde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BordelDeMerde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BordelDeMerde)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/491 "2012-02-15T20:31:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > :shrug: Israel is a sovereign state too. And Iran’s nuclear program is a legitimate military target. Period. Legitimate military target? Are you saying that a unilateral preemptive strike against Iran by either Israel or the US would not violate UN rules and international law? In fact, such action would be criminal. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/492 "2012-02-15T20:33:08Z")
[QUOTE=Spoke] Would you bow to similar logic used to justify a preemptive strike by Iran against Israel? Somehow, I sort of doubt it. [/QUOTE] If Iran really thought that it was under imminent threat from Israel then they would absolutely be justified in doing a preemptive strike. Why wouldn’t they be? Of course, just because YOU think it’s justified doesn’t mean other would agree with you, and there would certainly be consequences (it would be a rather spurious claim by Iran that Israel is threatening them, considering it’s generally been Iran attacking Israel via proxy and not the other way around). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/493 "2012-02-15T20:34:35Z")
> [@BordelDeMerde](#): > > Are you saying that a unilateral preemptive strike against Iran by either Israel or the US would not violate UN rules and international law? In fact, such action would be criminal. I think a unilateral preemptive strike against Iran by either Israel or the US would be highly stupid and extremely immoral but I don’t believe that preemptive strikes are illegal. Israel carried out a preemptive strike against Egypt in 1967 and the UN, which is hardly known for being wildly pro-Israel, didn’t rule the strike illegal or a violation of international law. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/494 "2012-02-15T20:35:17Z")
[QUOTE=newcomer] This is weird. I strongly believe that your response deserves “huh?” but you beat me to it. Pre-emptively, I might add. On a serious note, that kind of thinking is eff’d up. I have nothing reasonable to counter it. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I don’t know how to help you to understand this seemingly simple point. Wish I could but while you can lead a horse to water, you can’t always beat it to death mid-stream while attempting to change to a different horse who has better teeth… -XT ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/495 "2012-02-15T20:35:41Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I have no idea what your point is here. You made an assertion about what you thought was going on in my mind, – an assertion about my beliefs. I explained to you that you were incorrect. > > Anyway, please answer my questions so that I can understand your position: > > 1. Do you believe that Israel has at least the same right of self-defense as other states? > > 2. Does an “attack” include an attempt to assassinate Israeli diplomats? Does it include funding and arming terrorist groups which in turn launch rocket attacks on Israel? > > Also, do you feel that Israel would be certain to retaliate one hundred-fold against Iran if a 1000-person Jewish settlement on the West Bank were obliterated in a nuclear blast and the Israelis thought there were a 75% chance that Iran was behind it? Would you give the launch order if you were in charge? #1 is self-evident from my earlier post #2 first half, is my understanding is “playing the game” so from that perspective it is not, as for 2nd half, if that were the case there would be war every day so, no, it’s not an attack Last question is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/496 "2012-02-15T20:36:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I answered your question so please answer mine. I answered your original question, as I answer all questions I believe to be asked in good faith. I explained why I see little distinction between you and Finn. But now you are just playing the “I’ve got another question” game. (Also one of Finn’s favorites. Hmm.) I think I have made my take on your supposed “anti-Zionism” (or “non-Zionism” or “aZionism” or however you prefer to phrase it) quite clear. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/497 "2012-02-15T20:41:03Z")
> [@BordelDeMerde](#): > > Legitimate military target? Are you saying that a unilateral preemptive strike against Iran by either Israel or the US would not violate UN rules and international law? In fact, such action would be criminal. Agree. Which is exactly why the US should make it very clear to Israel that we will not use our veto power to protect Israel from sanctions in the event they launch a strike. If they honestly believe there is an existential threat, then let’s see if they believe it fervently enough to accept whatever sanction the world imposes. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/498 "2012-02-15T20:44:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I asked you to show me where in the article evidence of the false flag operation is. > > You haven’t shown it. > > You simply relinked to the article. I’ve read the article and see no evidence to support your assertions. > > Anyway please quote from the article where it provides evidence for this supposed false flag operation. Just a paragraph would be fine. > > Thanks Afraid I am not your assistant. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/499 "2012-02-15T20:45:13Z")
[QUOTE=Spoke] Agree. Which is exactly why the US should make it very clear to Israel that we will not use our veto power to protect Israel from sanctions in the event they launch a strike. If they honestly believe there is an existential threat, then let’s see if they believe it fervently enough to accept whatever sanction the world imposes. [/QUOTE] What specific document, rule or law do you base your agreement on here? Why would Iranian nuclear WEAPONS DEVELOPMENT facilities NOT be ‘legitimate military target’(s)? Why would a unilateral preemptive strike by Israel against such targets be ‘criminal’? What SPECIFIC UN rule or international law would it violate? BordelDeMerde, feel free to chime in with specifics as well, since it was your assertion. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/500 "2012-02-15T20:55:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What specific document, rule or law do you base your agreement on here? Why would Iranian nuclear WEAPONS DEVELOPMENT facilities NOT be ‘legitimate military target’(s)? Why would a unilateral preemptive strike by Israel against such targets be ‘criminal’? What SPECIFIC UN rule or international law would it violate? How about U.N. Charter Articles 41 and 42? > [@](#): > > Article 41 > > The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations. > > Article 42 > > Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations. The UN is the enforcer, not individual states acting on their own. If Israel has a beef, take it to the Security Council. (“Unlawful” would, I suppose, be a better descriptor than “criminal.”) ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/501 "2012-02-15T20:57:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > (…) \*\*seemingly \*\*simple point. > -XT Sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685.md?page=26)