# Israel ready to attack Iran? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685 "2012-02-03T21:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/81 "2012-02-04T19:49:38Z")
Propaganda overload. All systems go. [**Iran is the root of all evil**](http://politics.salon.com/2012/02/03/iran_is_the_root_of_all_evil/singleton/) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/82 "2012-02-04T19:58:25Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Just because you believe I am implying something doesn’t mean you can put it in quotation marks. If you think I am being pedantic, you clearly don’t know what quotation marks are for. > > Israel being wiped off the map is clearly a mistranslation of what Ahmedinejad said. The Ethan Bonner piece doesn’t really dispute this; hell even MEMRI doesn’t use that translation. Any way you slice it, it’s reasonably clear that Iran (collectively) would like to get rid of Israel. Just yesterday, one of their leaders stated that the “Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.” ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/83 "2012-02-04T20:09:42Z")
Post-revolution Iran has never accepted a Jewish state. They have always wanted a single Palestinian state covering the territory of Israel and the occupied territories. However they have never threatened the physical destruction of Israel, which of course would entail the destruction of most of their desired Palestinian state as well. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/84 "2012-02-04T20:20:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Any way you slice it, it’s reasonably clear that Iran (collectively) would like to get rid of Israel. Just yesterday, one of their leaders stated that the “Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.” Semantic quibbling aside, the de facto situation on Israel’s side towards Palestinian State echoes the same feelings. Worse, as it is actually being implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/85 "2012-02-04T20:23:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What “terrorist groups” have sworn allegiance to the Saudi King and what “terrorist groups” are receiving funding from the Saudi government? Errr… The very same Hamas ? Which according to some Israeli sources is up to 60-70% underwritten with Saudi money ? Unless the reason you’re asking this question in this very specific way is that the Saudi government & King don’t _officially_ do it, they merely let private interests (including other members of the royal family) do it ; hem and haw in public communiqués that it’s a very dreadful thing to do and this has got to stop ; then don’t lift a finger to actually try and make it stop. Does that make any difference ? Or is your beef with Iran that they support Hamas _too ostensibly_ rather than support Hamas at all ? [QUOTE=Alessan] I disagree. First of all, the fact that in the 40 years it’s had nukes, Israel hasn’t even threatened to use them is a close to proof as it is possible to get that Israel won’t use nukes unless in response to a existential threat. Whereas for Iran, we have no such proof. And yes, I know that that’s circular logic - but it’s logic nonetheless. [/quote] Hey, that’s cool, I don’t even have to point the inherent problem with the reasoning 🙂 But still, even absent that, you can see how it’s a pretty crappy position for any nation-state to be in, lying close to a nation with superior military capabilities, WMDs, and the seemingly blank-check backing of a superpower, even in a vacuum. Or with a history of non-aggression – sure, Israel hasn’t used its nukes in 40 years… but it could. What’s tomorrow going to bring ? What if the more thoroughly nuts Orthodox faction takes power ? What if Israel decided Iranian oil was necessary to its continued existence for some reason ? What if… what if… ? I mean, up until December 1941, Japan had a couple thousand year’s history of non-aggression with the US (and no, I’m not drawing an exact parallel between this situation and that, or this nation and that. I’m just saying, self-interests conflict in unpredictable ways, and then shit happens). > [@](#): > > Second of all, there’s no reason why Iran and Israel can’t be friends, especially as Israel has a clear policy of allying itself with non-Arab elements in the Middle East. Iran isn’t Arab, isn’t part of the Sunni majority, and doesn’t border Israel; those reasons alone make it a natural Israeli ally. The fact is, Israel was close with Iran under the Shah, and there’s no reason - other than the Iranians’ religious \*meshugas \*- that it can’t be close to any regime that happens to be ruling the country. There’s no hate here on Israel’s behalf, just self-interest. If the Iranians suddenly decided to open full diplomatic relations with Israel, we’d welcome them with open arms, and wouldn’t make a fuss about whatever weapons they may decide to acquire. Yes and no. Or rather, what you say is true, but the other side of the coin (that there are a lot more Muslims around who could be enticed to forget the Shia/Sunni divide for this once and become potential, temporary allies in knocking a competitor out of the game or at least hinder them enough to give Iran an edge) is true as well. Maybe allying with Israel against Arabs would have been a better long-term strat for Iran, maybe not. It’s not the one they’re currently running with. _shrug_ That being said, I’m not sure you can lay it all down at the feet of the religious _meshugahs_. The Iranian leadership never striked me as all that interested in sharing local power and influence _at all_, be it with Arabs, the US, Russia or Zee Tschooz. Might be overly greedy and boneheaded from a geopolitical standpoint, but then again we’ve all been there too. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/86 "2012-02-04T20:54:47Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Post-revolution Iran has never accepted a Jewish state. They have always wanted a single Palestinian state covering the territory of Israel and the occupied territories. However they have never threatened the physical destruction of Israel, which of course would entail the destruction of most of their desired Palestinian state as well. I’m not sure what you mean by this, since no state is a physical entity. Anyway, here is a quote from 1982: > [@](#): > > A monthly periodical called “Imam” which is published by the information department of the Iranian Foreign Office has been sent to the United Nations correspondents in Geneva. The title on the cover reads, **“Israel Must be Destroyed.”** I imagine you will respond that “Israel Must be Destroyed” does not actually mean that “Israel Must be Destroyed” in the sense of destroying the actual land over which Israel exercises sovereignty. But let’s assume that “destroy” does not mean physical destuction of land and let me ask you this: If a state is “destroyed” involuntarily, can we agree that it’s normally a process which involves a lot of pain and bloodshed for the citizenry of that state? Can we agree that if State X wants to “destroy” State Y, it’s reasonable for State Y to object to State X obtaining nuclear weapons? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/87 "2012-02-04T21:03:54Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Israel being wiped off the map is clearly a mistranslation of what Ahmedinejad said. Not according to the official English translations given out by the Iranian President’s office and their foreign ministry. > [@](#): > > But translators in Tehran who work for the president’s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. > [@](#): > > **Lantern** > Israel being wiped off the map is clearly a mistranslation of what Ahmedinejad said. The Ethan Bonner(sic) piece doesn’t really dispute this; You clearly didn’t read the piece very well then. > [@](#): > > Ahmad Zeidabadi, a professor of political science in Tehran whose specialty is Iran-Israel relations, explained: “It seems that in the early days of the revolution the word ‘map’ was used because it appeared to be the best meaningful translation for what he said. The words ‘sahneh roozgar’ are metaphorical and do not refer to anything specific. Maybe it was interpreted as ‘book of countries,’ and the closest thing to that was a map. Since then, we have often heard ‘Israel bayad az naghshe jographya mahv gardad’ — Israel must be wiped off the geographical map. Hard-liners have used it in their speeches.” > [@](#): > > But translators in Tehran who work for the president’s office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. And, of course Bronner himself says > [@](#): > > So did Iran’s president call for Israel to be wiped off the map? It certainly seems so. > [@](#): > > **Lantern** > It’s also worth pointing out that the Iranian foreign minister specifically denied the “wipe off the map” statement. You apparently didn’t read this article very well either. No where in the article does Mottaki say that the quote was mistranslated and doing so would be extremely stupid since it was the official Iranian News agency that offered the English translation of the quote that Steele and Cole have tried to dispute and wound up with egg on their faces for doing so. What Mottaki is doing is claiming that the quote has been “misunderstood” which is a completely different thing. What he’s doing is no different than other politicians who go out their and try and cover for their bosses when their bosses say something stupid by claiming that when their bosses said X they really meant Y. I.E. “Mitt Romney didn’t really mean he wasn’t concerned about the poor when he said he ‘wasn’t concerned about the very poor’, he just meant his focus was on the middle-class”. > [@](#): > > hell even MEMRI doesn’t use that translation. Which merely proves there are multiple ways a statement in Farsi can be translated in English. That doesn’t make the one you don’t like false. You might as well claim that the King James Bible is a mistranslation because the New English Bible is translated differently. > [@](#): > > Just because you believe I am implying something doesn’t mean you can put it in quotation marks. If you think I am being pedantic, you clearly don’t know what quotation marks are for. Ok, since you claim that multiple quotes of Ahmadinejad have been mistranslated then perhaps you can list them. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/88 "2012-02-04T21:10:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Errr… The very same Hamas ? Which according to some Israeli sources is up to 60-70% underwritten with Saudi money? Saudi citizens giving aid to Hamas is not the same as being supported by the Saudi government. By your standards then the US was supporting the militant/terrorist wing of the ANC because many US citizens gave them money. For that matter many citizens of both the UK and the US have given money to the PFLP and similar groups. Are you claiming that the US supported the PFLP? For that matter, since you seem to classify fundraisers by Saudi citizens to give money to the families of dead suicide bombers as the Saudi government supporting terrorism does that mean that the UK supported the IRA since people regularly raised funds for the “widows and children” of “the prisoners”? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/89 "2012-02-04T21:15:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Maybe allying with Israel against Arabs would have been a better long-term strat for Iran, maybe not. It’s not the one they’re currently running with. _shrug_ > > That being said, I’m not sure you can lay it all down at the feet of the religious _meshugahs_. The Iranian leadership never striked me as all that interested in sharing local power and influence _at all_, be it with Arabs, the US, Russia or Zee Tschooz. Might be overly greedy and boneheaded from a geopolitical standpoint, but then again we’ve all been there too. Actually, prior to Saddam Hussein being defanged the Iranian and Israeli leadership were closet allies. [http://www.amazon.com/Treacherous-Alliance-Secret-Dealings-Israel/dp/0300143117/ref=sr\_1\_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1328390074&sr=8-3](http://www.amazon.com/Treacherous-Alliance-Secret-Dealings-Israel/dp/0300143117/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1328390074&sr=8-3) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/90 "2012-02-04T21:15:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Just the physical destruction of its Jewish population? Or you could just be polite and move. The [Jewish Autonomous Oblast](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast) is nice. 🙂 They could hardly ask you to move further, could they? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/91 "2012-02-04T21:30:18Z")
[**The Generals try to stop an Iran War**](http://www.juancole.com/2012/02/the-generals-try-to-stop-an-iran-war.html) > [@](#): > > \*What is striking to me is the glibness with which the Right wing speaks of an attack on Iran. The UN Security Council has not authorized the use of force against Iran, and Tehran has not attacked any other country. A strike on Iran is therefore a war crime, more especially since it would release radiactive toxins on the people of Isfahan and of the Middle East more generally. > > Besides, proponents never say how they would pay for such a war. Iran is three times as populous and geographically much larger than Iraq. So multiply everything in that war by three to get the cost. > > Immediate cost: $3 trillion > Long term cost, including veteran care: $9 trillion > US troops killed: 15,000 > US troops fairly seriously wounded: 100,000 > > Iranian dead: 1 – 3 million > Iranian displaced: 12 million > > Anyone who advocates such a thing is a sort of monster, in my view.\* And certainly in mine. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/92 "2012-02-04T21:46:20Z")
Let’s cut through the chase. Israel is here to stay. That said, there will be a Palestinian state; full rights, full stop. Is Israel committed that’ll happen under their rules/terms? Because short of full out nuclear war, it is not going to happen. End of. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/93 "2012-02-04T21:55:31Z")
The PBS NewsHour had a good segment on this last night. The gist of it is that, if we assume the US and Israel will strike at Iran to prevent that country from getting the bomb, Israel has a shorter fuse as they don’t have the same capabilities that the US has. We can afford to wait another longer. And that’s the fear. As I said earlier, I have no doubt Israel will strike if they think they can delay Iran from getting the bomb, and it doesn’t matter what the US says to them. I have to wonder if they would have the tacit approval of the Saudis and maybe even the Turks, both of whom have regional ambitions at odds with Iran. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/94 "2012-02-04T22:07:46Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**The Generals try to stop an Iran War**](http://www.juancole.com/2012/02/the-generals-try-to-stop-an-iran-war.html) > > And certainly in mine. What does that part about “radioactive toxins being released upon the people of Isfahan…” all about? ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/95 "2012-02-04T23:45:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Israel ready to attack Iran? Why should they when they can have us do it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/96 "2012-02-05T00:31:08Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > Why should they when they can have us do it? Except they can’t. Obviously, there are lots of idiots who claim the US does whatever Israel wants, idiots who claim the US does whatever the Saudis want, and idiots who claim both, but that doesn’t make it so. ZOG is a myth. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/97 "2012-02-05T00:33:45Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > Why should they when they can have us do it? You’d have a point, if we were going to do it. And as I said above, even if we want to “do it”, our capabilities allows us to wait longer than Israel. No reason for them to trust that we will eventually “do it”. We’ve never “done it” before, and they’ve “done it” at least twice. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/98 "2012-02-05T00:41:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The PBS NewsHour had a good segment on this last night. The gist of it is that, if we assume the US and Israel will strike at Iran to prevent that country from getting the bomb, Israel has a shorter fuse as they don’t have the same capabilities that the US has. We can afford to wait another longer. > > And that’s the fear. As I said earlier, I have no doubt Israel will strike if they think they can delay Iran from getting the bomb, and it doesn’t matter what the US says to them. I have to wonder if they would have the tacit approval of the Saudis and maybe even the Turks, both of whom have regional ambitions at odds with Iran. You’d have to assume the US would want them to not do it. The US doesn’t want Iran to have these nukes, either…and like you mentioned, nor do other countries - especially Egypt and Turkey. I doubt the US would object to an Israeli strike on Iran - they’d just say something about Israel’s right to self-defense and then caution the IDF to ‘use restraint’ against unarmed civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/99 "2012-02-05T00:44:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’d have a point, if we were going to do it. And as I said above, even if we want to “do it”, our capabilities allows us to wait longer than Israel. No reason for them to trust that we will eventually “do it”. We’ve never “done it” before, and they’ve “done it” at least twice. I feel like with all of this “doing it”, someone has to at least mention the US getting to [third base](http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/pages/iran.aspx). Not that it’s been working thus far. Sorry. I have a 5th grade mentality today. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685/100 "2012-02-05T01:38:01Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > In fact as it says, he was clearly referring to a particular regime. You can’t use the phrase “in fact” to mean “what isn’t a fact”. Well, I mean, you can, but it’s not a very good practice. > [@](#): > > But to others, “occupying regime” signals more than opposition to a certain government; the phrase indicates the depth of the Iranian president’s rejection of a Jewish state in the Middle East because he refuses even to utter the name Israel. He has said that the Palestinian issue “does not lend itself to a partial territorial solution” and has called Israel “a stain” on Islam that must be erased. By contrast, Mr. Ahmadinejad’s predecessor, Mohammad Khatami, said that if the Palestinians accepted Israel’s existence, Iran would go along. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-ready-to-attack-iran/611685.md?page=6)