# Israel shocked at Swedish tabloid's freedom of speech **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198 "2009-08-21T14:09:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/241 "2009-08-26T23:16:11Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If a country could carry out such an inhumane order, what force is stopping them from experimenting on the Palestinians or harvesting their organs? The story is damning, even if its not true Damn your impeccable logic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/242 "2009-08-26T23:22:36Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Damn your impeccable logic. > 🙂 Heh, it’s true: the worse the smear, the more it must be deserved. 😃 Damn, but that **Olentzero** must be one nasty piece of work; people are claiming he fucks pigs. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/243 "2009-08-26T23:38:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Damn, but that **Olentzero** must be one nasty piece of work; people are claiming he fucks pigs. Claiming? Enough folks are saying it that it seems certain. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/244 "2009-08-26T23:53:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, it’s true: the worse the smear, the more it must be deserved. 😃 > > Damn, but that **Olentzero** must be one nasty piece of work; people are claiming he fucks pigs. I think **Honesty** meant that previous acts, unrelated to the article, help make the allegations of the article more plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/245 "2009-08-26T23:55:14Z")
I don’t see how you can all be getting on him for pig-fucking. When in Rome, etc. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/246 "2009-08-27T00:30:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t see how you can all be getting on him for pig-fucking. When in Rome, etc. Good gad, what have I started? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/247 "2009-08-27T07:28:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You accept the analogy I made and think it is quite fair? In short, you are of the opinion that a “Olentzero fucks pigs” article as I described it would be reasonable and supportable journalism, and not merely a libelous smear? 😕 No. The point was about the burden of proof and where it lies, not about what constitutes supportable journalism and what doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/248 "2009-08-27T08:40:34Z")
Bearing the burden of truth is the \*definition \*of supportable journalism. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/249 "2009-08-27T09:22:13Z")
I find it amusing that members of the Israeli government seem to think that Sweden and the Swedish government is so Anti-Semitic. So much so as to bring up what happened in World War 2. I find it amusing as in 1997 the Swedish government commissioned an 116 page book called “Om detta mĂ„ vi berĂ€tta” (translated to “Tell Ye Your Children”) that details what happened in the Holocaust. It was distributed (I believe at no cost) to anyone that wanted it. Any family with a teenage child was sent a form that they just had to send back to receive a copy. My girlfriend has a copy. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. As this Jewish site notes: > **[Sweden confronting its role in the Nazi war machine](https://jweekly.com/1998/08/21/sweden-confronting-its-role-in-the-nazi-war-machine/)** > > STOCKHOLM -- The midsummer sun sets but the light never fades out completely on this affluent, neatly maintained society, where almost everyone you... > [@](#): > > In fact, the Swedish government sent out letters to 713,000 households with teenage children offering the Holocaust history book. Those interested could send back an enclosed card, and the book, which is available in several languages, would be mailed out at no charge. > > “The government hoped for 20,000 to 30,000 responses in the first six months,” Levine said. “They got 300,000 requests in two weeks.” > > Some 800,000 copies of the Swedish edition have been published, and the book is now the “most widely distributed book in Swedish history, after the Bible,” Levine said. You can read an English translation here: [http://www.levandehistoria.se/files/engelska.pdf](http://www.levandehistoria.se/files/engelska.pdf) Unfortunately the English translation omits the section specific to Sweden which can be seen in the original Swedish version which can be read here: [http://www.levandehistoria.se/files/svenska.pdf](http://www.levandehistoria.se/files/svenska.pdf) The Sweden-specific sections add an extra 25 pages to the book. The English edition also has a section at the back where various Swedish politicians have added their thoughts. One of these politicians is Carl Bildt, the current Foreign Minister that has come in for criticism over this recent “scandal”. He says: > [@](#): > > I have stood in silence before the crematoria > of the Nazi extermination camps > and before the open mass graves after > the cruel murders committed in the war > in Bosnia. And I have read the chilling > descriptions of those who managed to > survive the mass purges of the Stalin era. > It could happen again. Perhaps not > exactly a new Hitler or Stalin, but fear of > the unknown could lead to intolerance, hate could spread or be > whipped up, and the ground could once again be laid for murder. > Fear of those who look different, or who think differently. Fear of > people who have a different faith. Or of Jews, or whites or black > people. Of people whose only ”fault” is that they are different > from their murderers. > This is why it is so important for us to learn from history. It > must never be forgotten. And we should be able to draw conclusions > from it. The very things that divide us as individuals and > peoples and cultures are often the things that bring richness and > dynamism to our development. There should be ever closer cooperation > between individuals and nations and states to build a > firebreak to prevent the forces of barbarism from perpetrating > new murders. I am sure that those in Israel that are currently condemning Anti-Semitic Sweden in pubic, via statements or in their press, especially those that feel the need to bring up World War 2 and Sweden’s actions during it, have also mentioned this book, how it was so widely distributed and Government commissioned. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/250 "2009-08-27T09:26:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Bearing the burden of truth is the \*definition \*of supportable journalism. Indeed. Even if that truth is highly unpleasant and potentially embarrassing to an entire nation’s army and medical establishment. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/251 "2009-08-27T09:32:07Z")
Missed the edit window
 We are, however, talking about the burden of _proof_, not the burden of truth. Do please try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/252 "2009-08-27T09:45:34Z")
An additional story comes a bit closer to home. I took a Photoshop and an Illustrator course at Åsö Vuxengymnasium a couple of years back. The teacher didn’t turn up for the last two lessons of the Illustrator course. We were all rather annoyed. Turns out the guy was a Holocaust Denier and went to a Holocaust Denial conference in Iran to do a presentation: > **[The Local - Sweden's news in English](https://www.thelocal.se/404)** > > Daily news from Sweden written in English by native English-speaking journalists. An entertaining blend of Sweden's latest news headlines, politics, sport, business, and features. [http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Swedish\_teacher\_suspended\_over\_atte\_12142006.html](http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Swedish_teacher_suspended_over_atte_12142006.html) Let’s just say this was a very hot topic in Stockholm at the time. There was widespread condemnation in the press. I believe he was suspended and then an agreement was made with the union as he hadn’t specifically broken the rules of his contract but it was clear he could no longer work as a teacher. Of course if Sweden and Swedes were so Anti-Semitic it’d be easy to find mainstream support for him. Except there isn’t any. And yes, honest to God I was taught by the guy. I went back to the UK for Christmas and came back to the shitstorm in the press. It was bizarre to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/253 "2009-08-27T10:33:53Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Missed the edit window
 > > We are, however, talking about the burden of _proof_, not the burden of truth. Do please try to keep up. Hey, I’m not working now. No-one’s paying me to proofread. \*\*Amanset \*\*- no-one here in this thread is accusing the Swedes of anti-semitism. At most, the accusation is that in this case, you are unwilling to confront anti-semitism. Incidentally, to those accusing Israel of reacting vehemently, here’s a fun fact: the Hebrew language has no word for “subtle”. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/254 "2009-08-27T10:44:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > \*\*Amanset \*\*- no-one here in this thread is accusing the Swedes of anti-semitism. At most, the accusation is that in this case, you are unwilling to confront anti-semitism. As I said: > [@](#): > > I find it amusing that members of the Israeli government seem to think that Sweden and the Swedish government is so Anti-Semitic. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/255 "2009-08-27T11:00:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Incidentally, to those accusing Israel of reacting vehemently, here’s a fun fact: the Hebrew language has no word for “subtle”. Seriously. Sorry for the off-topic post but really? Not even words to the same effect like softly, silent, stealthy, quiet? That could explain a lot :D. Does Arabic suffer from the same defect? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/256 "2009-08-27T11:18:10Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > Sorry for the off-topic post but really? Not even words to the same effect like softly, silent, stealthy, quiet? > That could explain a lot :D. Does Arabic suffer from the same defect? No, of course all those words can be translated - just not the word “subtle”, which translators always seem to have a problem with. The best most can do is the Hebrew words for “delicate” or “refined”. Anyway, what I was trying (subtly) to imply is that Israelis have a more
 Mediterranean way of expressing themselves, which differs somewhat from the Nordic approach. As we’ve seen lately. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/257 "2009-08-27T11:25:11Z")
Not according to my Oxford English-Arabic dictionary. The diacriticals are a little hard to read but there are three words for ‘subtle’ with the implied meaning of ‘perceptive’: _faTin_, _Haadhiq_, and _dhuudahaa’_. Incidentally, Yiddish has _subtil_ and _farshpitst_ so it’s not like Jews are completely unaware of the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/258 "2009-08-27T11:57:04Z")
I was talking about Hebrew. My Arabic isn’t nearly good enough to answer that question. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/259 "2009-08-27T12:02:08Z")
I was responding to Mikkel. You just got in first. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/260 "2009-08-27T13:25:06Z")
My favorite of the 99 names of God is “The Subtle One.” I like that one a lot. So yes, Arabic has such a word. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=14)