# Israel shocked at Swedish tabloid's freedom of speech **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198 "2009-08-21T14:09:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/361 "2009-08-31T02:45:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Freedom of the press means that the press can publish whatever it wants as it does not break the laws against libel. Freedom of the press does not mean that the press can print whatever it wants and public figures cannot have an opinion on the aesthetic quality of what was published. It doesn’t matter what you think Freedom of the Press is, it matters how Sweden how defines it since the point of controversy originated there. Israel is in no position to head-lock and arm-twist a EU member into apologizing for a newspaper’s published material. If Israel feels its been legally wronged by the government of Sweden, it should file a complaint with the putative [legal body](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice) of the United Nations. What I find sad about this thread (and so many others) is the discussion is drowned out by the accusational din of anti-semitism. Nothing can be further from the truth. It’s not about Jews. Or Israelis as individuals or as a group. It’s about the government conspicuously oppressing an ethnic minority and not affording them the Rights and Privileges that would be provided if they (the Arab-Israelis) resided in other Western countries. The problem ends and begins with the fair and equitable treatment of the Palestinian people. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/362 "2009-08-31T02:56:01Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It doesn’t matter what you think Freedom of the Press is You misspelled “what the actual definition of Freedom of the Press is.” > [@Honesty](#): > > it matters how Sweden how defines it since the point of controversy originated there. Wrong. It doesn’t become a FotP issue just because Sweden comes up with some idiosyncratic definition (which, of course, nobody has provided any proof for other than the non-binding interpretation of an non-judicial body whose interpretation contradicts what’s actually in their Constitution). Freedom of the Press has an actual, real definition. If Swedish politicians decided that “freedom of religion” means that nobody can insult your religious choices then it’d be equally self-serving and nonsensical for you to claim that the Mohamed cartoons were a violation of freedom of religion. > [@Honesty](#): > > If Israel feels its been legally wronged by the government of Sweden Of course, it doesn’t, so I have no idea why you’d mention it. But good try. > [@Honesty](#): > > What I find sad about this thread (and so many others) is the discussion is drowned out by the accusational din of anti-semitism. I know! It’s like, these days you can hardly fabricate an international Jewish conspiracy of organ thievery without someone being all like “um, no.” Won’t someone think of the anti-Semites?!?!?!? They must be sad. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/363 "2009-08-31T03:10:53Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The problem ends and begins with the fair and equitable treatment of the Palestinian people. > > - Honesty [Honestly.](http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/200806412012737) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/364 "2009-08-31T03:34:26Z")
Meh, it’s just the same old standard boilerplate politics-divorced-from-reality. Why look at the Mufti’s alliance with Hitler? The 1957 Homs Refugee Conference? The failure of Oslo, or Camp David? Arafat choosing to suspend negotiations and deliberately start the second “Intififada”? It’s much easier just to say it’s all Israel’s fault and if they offered fair and equitable resolution, like Arafat rejected, then everything would be perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/365 "2009-08-31T09:14:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Okay, so you have an idiosyncratic definition of free press. Fair enough. Of course, the actual definition is different. Freedom of the press means that the press can publish whatever it wants as it does not break the laws against libel. Freedom of the press does not mean that the press can print whatever it wants and public figures cannot have an opinion on the aesthetic quality of what was published. Certainly the laws of libel apply, but that is the business of the courts or [pressombudsmanden](http://www.po.se/english.jsp?avd=english). The government won’t and shouldn’t mess with that. They make the laws, they shouldn’t enforce them too. Swedens constitution was based on [Montesquieus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montesquieu) theory of separation of powers and it is seen as a dangerous precedent to criticize the press directly and officially. You will see that the apologies for the cartoons, both in Sweden and Denmark, doesn’t criticize the press but regret hurt feelings. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/366 "2009-08-31T09:37:11Z")
First, thanks for the info. I’m the Editor in Chief of a smallish online fanzine that’s published from Sweden so I’m a bit familiar with the situation in Sweden wrt publications, but only a bit. I appreciate the additional info. In any case, you are certainly correct and the courts determine legal transgressions (like libel), not the legislature. That’s fine. However: > [@Mikkel](#): > > it is seen as a dangerous precedent to criticize the press directly and officially. This seems a bit silly. I’m fine with accepting that by Swedish tradition they don’t engage in such behavior, or that they’d prefer not to, or what have you. But it’s not at all a slippery slope or a reason for concern. As long as Sweden has robust laws to protect FotP (and it certainly seems to) it is nonsensical to worry about mere rhetoric. Let’s say, tomorrow, the government came out and said “That article sucks! It’s stupid ! It makes us want to poke our eyes out and pour salt in the bleeding ocular pits! Ayieeeee!” What would happen the next day? I imagine that the paper would go on publishing just as it always had. They might even mock the politicians. After all, FotP is the right to publish whatever you want as long as it’s not libelous, but it is not the right to publish with criticism, even criticism from the government. As long as the government’s criticisms ‘have no teeth’, then there’s no real problem. Honestly, if the Sweedish press was really so easily cowed that a mere verbal rebuke with no power behind it, at all, would silence them? Well… I’m sure they could order a shipment of some sort of spine-replicas from somewhere. 😃 If FotP can only be maintained by treating journalists like hothouse flowers, then it’s nowhere near as robust as advertised. > [@Mikkel](#): > > You will see that the apologies for the cartoons, both in Sweden and Denmark, doesn’t criticize the press but regret hurt feelings. Well… no, not really. The events of 2005 are a bit more complicated. Of course you could say (and people have said) that Sweden’s actions at the time were a mistake), but just to keep the record straight, Sweden did specifically go beyond ‘sorry your feelings were hurt.’ The quote at the time was “We support the freedom of speech, that I think is very clear. But at the same time it is important to say that with this freedom comes a certain responsibility, and it could be objectionable to act in a way that insults people” IIRC Freivalds also use (semi-legal?) influence to have a website shut down that hosted other Mohamed cartoons and resigned in disgrace once the story broke. So, it’s totally fine if you’d like to argue that Sweden shouldn’t apologize or make any diplomatic efforts to sooth things over. But it’s also true that there’s no real violation of FotP if they were to do that, and the Swedish government has, in the past, gone beyond mere ‘sorry you were offended’ type of watered down apologies.salt ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/367 "2009-08-31T09:43:44Z")
And, erm, there should be no salt at the end there. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/368 "2009-08-31T10:08:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And, erm, there should be no salt at the end there. 😃 Well, a grain of salt is often healthy in any debate. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/369 "2009-08-31T10:56:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Let’s say, tomorrow, the government came out and said “That article sucks! It’s stupid ! It makes us want to poke our eyes out and pour salt in the bleeding ocular pits! Ayieeeee!” > What would happen the next day? The [committee of the constitution](http://www.riksdagen.se/templates/R_Page ____ 5772.aspx) would have something to say. A vote of no confidence or at least threats of it, perhaps, if the opposition think there is a chance. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well… no, not really. The events of 2005 are a bit more complicated. Of course you could say (and people have said) that Sweden’s actions at the time were a mistake), but just to keep the record straight, Sweden did specifically go beyond ‘sorry your feelings were hurt.’ > > The quote at the time was “We support the freedom of speech, that I think is very clear. But at the same time it is important to say that with this freedom comes a certain responsibility, and it could be objectionable to act in a way that insults people” > IIRC Freivalds also use (semi-legal?) influence to have a website shut down that hosted other Mohamed cartoons and resigned in disgrace once the story broke. > > So, it’s totally fine if you’d like to argue that Sweden shouldn’t apologize or make any diplomatic efforts to sooth things over. But it’s also true that there’s no real violation of FotP if they were to do that, and the Swedish government has, in the past, gone beyond mere ‘sorry you were offended’ type of watered down apologies.salt If the quote is correct, I admit it’s more than that. Wasn’t the committee of the constitution mixed up in that apology somehow? I believe someone said so earlier in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/370 "2009-08-31T12:34:15Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What I find sad about this thread (and so many others) is the discussion is drowned out by the accusational din of anti-semitism. Huh? > [@](#): > > Nothing can be further from the truth. Well, that’s more like it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/371 "2009-08-31T13:06:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > [Honestly.](http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/200806412012737) It is called resentment and it sucks. It is what happens when you oppress people in a society. I beg you to notice that we don’t have this problem in Dearborn, Michigan. > [@](#): > > It’s much easier just to say it’s all Israel’s fault and if they offered fair and equitable resolution, like Arafat rejected, then everything would be perfect. I am much less concerned with the formation of a new state of Palestine, than I am with Israel providing unequivocal, same-treatment for all of its citizens. The former won’t last much without the latter. You can’t say that you have equal suffrage, while, at the same time allowing racial profiling. You can’t say you have equal opportunity in a country, where laws exclude minorities from certain privileges afforded to the majority. Equality isn’t a mathematical process of cancelling of “rights” and “unrights” on both sides, it is the **fair and equitable _for all_** , no exceptions, inclusions, or astriks. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/372 "2009-08-31T13:17:20Z")
Can you be more specific as to the types of discimination Arab citiznes of Isael suffer from? ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/373 "2009-08-31T13:32:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Can you be more specific as to the types of discimination Arab citiznes of Isael suffer from? [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681\_pf.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681_pf.html) [http://domain1713663.sites.fasthosts.com/factsheets/arabsinisrael.htm](http://domain1713663.sites.fasthosts.com/factsheets/arabsinisrael.htm) > **[International Crisis Group](https://www.crisisgroup.org/?id=2528&l=1)** > > The International Crisis Group is an independent, non-profit, non-governmental organisation committed to preventing and resolving deadly conflict I could find more if you want it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/374 "2009-08-31T13:40:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > -why WWII was fought A combination of various things. Not simply a desire for world domination, or whatever it was that you said. Anyone that denies that racism - mostly anti-semitism - wasn’t a large part o fit is deluding themselves. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > -what the UK’s official policy on helping the Jews was In total around 90,000 Jews are believed to have been allowed to settle in the UK. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > -what the change was in the UK’s immigration policies after Kristallnacht Kindertransport. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > -what the UK’s official policy on helping the nascent state of Israel was > -how the state of Israel was created > -what the UK’s role was in the creation of the state of Israel. All pretty much the same question. Under British control the Jewish population in Palestine grew substantially. The earliest forms of a Jewish government was created. They were given tax raising powers. I do realise that, for political reasons, many like to pretend that these things never happened, but they did. Also, you mentioned earlier the White Papers that limited Jewish immigration. I don’t deny that these existed, but they did so in the late 1930s, after about two decades of British control and mass Jewish immigration. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Care to address them any time soon? Happy now? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’ve already addressed this. In a post directed to you. You ignored me last time I did. Now you’re repeating the same debunked talking point. Yet again, the fact that you ignore Britain effectively closing its immigration policy to Jewish refugees but allowing in approximately 1/5 of one percent of those who were butchered is… odd. Kindertransport wasn’t the only route that Jews took to the UK. It was however, what the British Government did in reaction to Kristallnacht, which was exactly what you had asked me about. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Do you not know what a strawman is or were you yet again wooshed at supersonic velocity? Oh I know. Just for you, from Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. Which is exactly what you had done. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Okay, so you have an idiosyncratic definition of free press. Fair enough. Of course, the actual definition is different. Freedom of the press means that the press can publish whatever it wants as it does not break the laws against libel. Freedom of the press does not mean that the press can print whatever it wants and public figures cannot have an opinion on the aesthetic quality of what was published. However there seem to be many here, that have a lot more experience of how such things are interpreted in Sweden where this has happened, that disagree with you. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Excellent bandwagon fallacy. (With wiki link!) > You want to discuss that bit of bombast in order to avoid all the factual errors of yours that I’ve pointed out, please open a new thread. Yes! Mock the Wiki! As I said, it was a starter for you. Something that Wikipedia is actually very good for. I at no point stated that it was the be all and end all definitive facts. I actually don’t want to discuss that bit at all. Hell, I didn’t even mention it, you got annoyed when someone else did. I just thought that your response was naïve and demonstrably false. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > 😃 > Although that semantic dodge really is very funny, sorry, no. [To retract something is to remove it.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retracting) Which will be why I asked if it had been “officially retracted”. Go on, check my post up there ^^^^ Anyway, it doesn’t matter. You are now trying to worm out of things by going all symantic (which, amusingly, is pretty much what you get annoyed at me for doing with “freedom of the press”). The fact remains that in terms of statements, especially political ones, to retract has a very definite meaning. It is done via the means of a [retraction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retraction) > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I am impressed by your avoiding the issue with an ad hom fallacy. We’ve had the Swedish Constitution cited and it’s clear that it says nothing like what you’d like to claim it does. Quit this sillyness about constitutional scholars and either give proof or retract. How would you like me to retract 😉 The fact of the matter is that neither of us are very good with Swedish Constitutional Law. I am letting the experts figure it out whereas you think that you can just read an English translation and work it out for yourself. Out of interest, can you read Swedish? You have “Finn” in your name, so there is a chance you have some Finnish in you and hence some Swedish abilities. If so, have you been following how this has been presented in the Swedish media? The media from a country where they deal a lot more with this sort of thing? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is pure fiction. Who do you think you can fool, exactly? Your own cite puts paid to this fiction, why would you cite something that shows your claim is bullshit? Did you not read it or something? It clearly states that after Evian "Britain refused to allow further Jewish refugees into the country. " and that wrt proto-Israel in the 1930’s “Britain strictly limited immigration. This limitation became nearly absolute after the White Paper of 1939 all but stopped legal immigration” > > Who do you think you’re fooling when you claim that the UK made it easier when your own cite calls bullshit? All immigration has been strictly limited for a long time, most countries have a tendency to do that. Again, I was specifically asked what the UK did after Kristallnacht. I answered, correctly, that the Government put forward a plan to bring in Jewish children. This plan wasn’t perfect, but it did save 9,000 or so kids that I assume were rather glad that the UK did it. These were not the only Jews let in to the country. Approximately 90,000 in total were. Not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than none. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > :rolleyes: > > 1. I already commented on it. Days ago. > 2. You’re conflating the handfull of children (about nine thousand, not nintety thousand) with the roughly 100K immigrants they let in before things got really bad. No I’m not. My link clearly says “Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.” 40,000 + 50,000 = 90,000. Would it help your comprehension if I added a new line in the middle of what I wrote? I had hoped that you’d read the link and see exactly what the numbers refer to. Your quote is somewhat unfair as well as it omits the lead up to the two sentences you do show, where I feel it makes it clear that Kindertransport was but a part of the Jewish immigration to the UK. You’ve presented it in a way so as to make it look like I thought it was the only immigration. Still, the figures don’t lie. 90,000 Jews. Again, as a direct response to Kristallnacht the Kindertransport programme was put into place which saved approximately 9000 children. And all of this was done before the shit really hit the fan. It wasn’t until well into the war that the true depths of the “final solution” was understood. That’s why earlier I asked you to try and reply without using knowledge gained from hindsight. Perhaps if we knew that the Nazis were going to have set up deaths camps and slaughter several million people we’d have done something different, but we didn’t. Which is what makes it particularly disgraceful that you try to imply that the UK did next to nothing. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I have done the reading. > You could start by reading your own cite. > Just a suggestion. I did. That’s where I got the numbers from. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And you won’t remember one, because I’ve been way too busy pointing out your factual mistakes. Figure out what the actual history is, and maybe then I can try to point out some workable solutions. But as long as you insist on a counter-factual historical narrative that your own cites debunk, I’m not going to try to point out what alternatives were. Counter-factual my arse. Again I ask, what was the UK supposed to do? Bear in mind that the Great Depression was a worldwide phenomenon that took place not that long after the First World War ended. Also consider that from the mid-thirties onwards the UK began to prepare for war. So, what do you think the UK should have done? Open the borders completely for mass migration of Jews from mainland Europe whilst knowing full well that the country just didn’t have the capacity to look after them? Remember that at this point no-one knew how far the Nazis had planned to go with the Holocaust. Would you have risked your country for that? Because that’s what was at stake. This wasn’t was in some faroff land, this was just across the channel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/375 "2009-08-31T13:49:29Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681\_pf.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681_pf.html) > [http://domain1713663.sites.fasthosts.com/factsheets/arabsinisrael.htm](http://domain1713663.sites.fasthosts.com/factsheets/arabsinisrael.htm) > [http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2528&l=1](http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2528&l=1) > > I could find more if you want it. Based on those cites I don’t see much of a difference between Israel and other countries with sizable minority groups, particularly countries with a history of violence between the minority and the majority. Certainly, there’s no reason there for the dispropotionate global attention my country receives. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/376 "2009-08-31T14:11:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Based on those cites I don’t see much of a difference between Israel and other countries with sizable minority groups, particularly countries with a history of violence between the minority and the majority. Like South Africa before the end of apartheid? > [@Alessan](#): > > Certainly, there’s no reason there for the dispropotionate global attention my country receives. No, I actually agree, I think the reason is the somewhat flattering that Israel after all _are_ democratic and supposedly will listen better than for instance Sudan. Another reason is the [grave breaches of the Geneva Convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention#Grave_breaches) Israel commit in Palestine. But are you saying that we shouldn’t criticize Israel because others are as bad? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/377 "2009-08-31T15:42:06Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > Like South Africa before the end of apartheid? You’re comparing the situation of Arab Israelis to that of blacks under apartheid? Really? If I were a black South African, I’d be insulted. And what grave breaches, may I ask? ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/378 "2009-08-31T16:30:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And what grave breaches, may I ask? White phosphorus used on civilians. Assassinations, as told in the Swedish article in Aftonbladet, even if the mans organs wasn’t stolen. Destruction of property as covered by article 53 of the fourth Geneva convention. [Settlements](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/ba123cded3ea84a5852560e50077c2dc?OpenDocument) in the [occupied](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/5aa254a1c8f8b1cb852560e50075d7d5?OpenDocument) teritories. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/379 "2009-08-31T17:06:18Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > White phosphorus used on civilians. On civilians in close proximity to military targets. Not a breach. > [@Mikkel](#): > > Assassinations, as told in the Swedish article in Aftonbladet, even if the mans organs wasn’t stolen. Assasinations are carried out by all nations in times of war. Not a breach. > [@Mikkel](#): > > Destruction of property as covered by article 53 of the fourth Geneva convention. Was it \*wilful \*destruction, rather destruction deriving from military neccessity? Because if not, not a breach. > [@Mikkel](#): > > [Settlements](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/ba123cded3ea84a5852560e50077c2dc?OpenDocument) in the [occupied](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/5aa254a1c8f8b1cb852560e50075d7d5?OpenDocument) teritories. If breaches at all, then not grave breaches. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/380 "2009-08-31T17:23:48Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > White phosphorus used on civilians. Assassinations, as told in the Swedish article in Aftonbladet, even if the mans organs wasn’t stolen. Destruction of property as covered by article 53 of the fourth Geneva convention. [Settlements](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/ba123cded3ea84a5852560e50077c2dc?OpenDocument) in the [occupied](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/5aa254a1c8f8b1cb852560e50075d7d5?OpenDocument) teritories. Er… if we’ve learned anything from this thread, it’s that _Aftonbladet_ is not a very good source, no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=20)