# Israel shocked at Swedish tabloid's freedom of speech **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198 "2009-08-21T14:09:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/41 "2009-08-23T01:51:29Z")
Harvesting organs for guys killed by M-16s on the street…the Israelis DO have the best doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/42 "2009-08-23T04:26:31Z")
I think Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has totally gone and Godwinized the whole thing: > [@](#): > > [This] reminds one of Sweden’s conduct during World War II, when it also did not intervene. Okay, so he didn’t actually mention Hitler or Nazis, but you see where he was going… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/43 "2009-08-23T04:46:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, so he didn’t actually mention Hitler or Nazis, but you see where he was going… Please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/44 "2009-08-23T04:55:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Please elaborate. He’s trying to draw some sort of equivalency between the Swedish government not denouncing a newspaper article (presumably of dubious accuracy) last week, and the Swedish government not declaring war on Germany 50 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/45 "2009-08-23T04:55:27Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Precisely the reasoning of the people who made death threats against the people who caricatured Mohammad. [ol] [li]Israel isn’t making any death threats.[/li][li]The cartoon debacle was manufactured by the supposed “victims”, who added their own, worse caricatures to rile up the mob.[/li][li]The creation of obvious works of fiction isn’t comparable to claiming that real, living people are murdering innocent civilians and harvesting their organs.[/li][li]Only an insane fanatic would see the Mohammad cartoons as justification to hurt anyone. Someone might hear this claim and believe it, and thus conclude that Israel’s (fabricated) atrocities need to be stopped.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/46 "2009-08-23T05:38:09Z")
> [@Olentzero...](#): > > it apparently became very clear that Bilal had been sliced open from belly to neck, as his burial shroud became wet. What an authoritative conclusion. Nobody saw any incisions, whether autopsy-related or nefarious organ harvesting-related and the supposed dampness of the burial shroud is not futher characterized. It should be noted that the sutured incisions of dead people do not gush fluid so as to get outer garments/body coverings wet (I speak as a pathologist from personal knowledge of bodies with closed, large autopsy incisions). > [@](#): > > His family, and other families of disappeared Palestinians, have questioned the conditions under which their bodies have been returned - at night, under military escort, during enforced blackouts and a lockdown of the immediate area. An Israeli army spokesman says that autopsies of dead Palestinians are a routine procedure. If it’s so routine, why then stage an elaborate method of returning bodies under cover of darkness in a way calculated to draw attention? Them Israelis must be really stoopid. > [@](#): > > I’ll finish up with a direct translation of the last two paragraphs: > > "We know that the need for organs in Israel is great, that widespread illegal organ selling occurs, that it’s been happening for a long time, that it happens with the consent of the authorities, that doctors in high positions in the larger hospitals participate, as well as civil servants at various levels. And we know that Palestinian young men disappeared, that they are brought back five days later at night, very hush-hush, cut open and sewn up again. > > It is time to shed some light on this macabre activity, on what is taking place and what has been taking place in the occupied territories since the intifada began." > > Nowhere in this article does he make the direct accusation that Israel is harvesting organs from Palestinians Oh no…no direct accusations for our boy. None at all. > [@](#): > > In short: If the guy is wrong, prove it. Do you really think it’s the obligation of the Israelis to prove a negative? If you make wild-sounding claims, it’s _your_ obligation to prove them, not to sound like Michael Moore trying to connect-the-dots while on crack. For the benefit of **Henrichek** and any others who may not be familiar with them, there are numerous urban legends that have circulated in this country and elsewhere, concerning people who supposedly been lured into situations where they were drugged, organs (typically a kidney) harvested, and later woke up with a freshly sutured incision (in one story, coming to in a bathtub covered with ice). Americans and Europeans have also been accused of killing for transplant organs (see [this link](http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/horrors/a/kidney_thieves.htm) for more (stories spread in Guatemala in the '90s about how foreigners were allegedly kidnapping and killing children to procure organs, and mobs brutally attacked some foreigners as a result). Sinister kidnapping schemes for organ harvesting seems to be a theme that rings true among credulous people with built-in prejudices against a group, aided in the current case by lingering fondness for anti-Semitic blood libel stories. I’m not surprised the Israelis are pissed off. On a more practical basis, the current allegation suffers from a major defect - there’d have to be a large number of people involved in a conspiracy, from soldiers to doctors to hospital staff, all of whom would have to keep their mouths shut (not likely in a country where there have been considerable leaks over far less explosive stuff) - and removing organs for transplantation is a sophisticated procedure requiring expert assessment, experienced personnel and a modern well-equipped facility. You can’t very well “disappear” Palestinians off the street on the off-chance that they have healthy organs compatible for transplantation by blood type and histocompatibility antigens, and accomplish the safe removal in some army barracks or field clinic. This whole thing sounds like garbage from someone with an ax to grind, a major screw loose or both. ---
**Author:** ![Walpurgis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Walpurgis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walpurgis)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/47 "2009-08-23T08:41:02Z")
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I’d like to help clarify what the author actually says in the section about the body being cut open or not. There is a picture in the original article of what is supposedly Bilal Ahmed Ganan’s body, if you click on Olentzero’s link. [http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article5652583.ab](http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article5652583.ab) Here’s the section where the text deals with the incident (fourth paragraph from the end): > [@](#): > > När Bilal läggs ner i graven blottades hans bröst och plötsligt stod det klart för de få närvarande vilka övergrepp han utsatts för. Bilal var långt ifrån den förste som begravdes uppskuren från buken upp till hakan och spekulationerna om avsikten hade tagit fart. Literal translation: When Bilal is put (sic) in the grave his chest was exposed, and it was suddenly clear to the few people present what abuse he had been subjected to. Bilal was far from the first who had been buried cut open from belly to throat, and speculations about the purpose took off. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/48 "2009-08-23T08:50:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He’s trying to draw some sort of equivalency between the Swedish government not denouncing a newspaper article (presumably of dubious accuracy) last week, and the Swedish government not declaring war on Germany 50 years ago. It was a little more than simply not declaring war. Swedish neutrality wasn’t that of the pacifist, it was that of the pimp. Germany had [permission](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_German_troops_through_Scandinavia_%28WWII%29#German_troops_through_Sweden) to transport troops through Sweden to Norway for several years during the war. While I believe those are good grounds for criticism of Swedish wartime policy, and given that Sweden accepted 8,000 [Danish Jews](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews) in an effort to rescue them from the concentration camps, Israel’s flinging this criticism in Sweden’s face over a newspaper article is unjustifiable. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > What an authoritative conclusion. Nobody saw any incisions, whether autopsy-related or nefarious organ harvesting-related and the supposed dampness of the burial shroud is not futher characterized. Take a real good look at that link. There’s a photo of Bilal taken by the author of the article there. It is at this point that I have to point out a serious error in my own translation. Here is the original sentence: > [@](#): > > _När Bilal läggs ner i graven **blottades** hans bröst och plötsligt stod det klart för de få närvarande vilka övergrepp han utsatts för._ I completely mistranslated ‘blottades’, which I confused with the Swedish word _blött_, meaning wet or moist. The verb _blotta_ means to uncover or expose, so the correct translation should be “When Bilal was lowered into the grave his chest was _uncovered_, and suddenly it became clear…” This will teach me to double check my Norstedt’s! (ETA: Curse you and thank you simultaneously, **Walpurgis** 😃 ) > [@](#): > > _If it’s so routine, why then stage an elaborate method of returning bodies under cover of darkness in a way calculated to draw attention?_ Heavy military escort under lockdown and enforced blackout don’t exactly tell people “Hey, you should come over here and check this out”, especially when they already know that the presence of Israeli troops even in broad daylight probably spells trouble. > [@](#): > > _Do you really think it’s the obligation of the Israelis to prove a negative? If you make wild-sounding claims, it’s your obligation to prove them, not to sound like Michael Moore trying to connect-the-dots while on crack._ If the Israelis in fact _aren’t_ doing anything like this, it’s their obligation to lay the facts out for public scrutiny and discussion, not sound like hysterical paranoiacs flinging wild accusations of rabid nationwide anti-Semitism using 60-year-old history. > [@](#): > > _On a more practical basis, the current allegation suffers from a major defect - there’d have to be a large number of people involved in a conspiracy, from soldiers to doctors to hospital staff, all of whom would have to keep their mouths shut (not likely in a country where there have been considerable leaks over far less explosive stuff) - and removing organs for transplantation is a sophisticated procedure requiring expert assessment, experienced personnel and a modern well-equipped facility. You can’t very well “disappear” Palestinians off the street on the off-chance that they have healthy organs compatible for transplantation by blood type and histocompatibility antigens, and accomplish the safe removal in some army barracks or field clinic._ Translated directly from the article: > [@](#): > > _Half of the kidneys Israelis received by operation since the beginning of the decade have been purchased illegally from Turkey, Eastern Europe, and Latin America. The Israeli Ministry of Health has full knowledge of the activity but does nothing to stop it. During a conference in 2003 it came out that Israel is the only Western country whose body of physicians does not condemn the illegal organ trade, nor does it take any judicial measures against those physicians who participate in the criminal trade. On the contrary, head doctors in the major hospitals are involved in most of the illegal transplants, according to [Dagens Nyheter](http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/organkop-vanligt-i-israel-1.226601) (5 Dec 2003)._ The DN article mentions this same conference and mentions that the exact same information about lack of condemnation by physicians and punishment of physicians involved was reported in _Ha’aretz_. I ask in all seriousness: Was there this level of outrage from Israel against DN or the Swedish government over the earlier article? What about outrage against _Ha’aretz_? I ask in all snarkiness, would the Israeli government have demanded an apology from themselves in the latter case? > [@](#): > > _This whole thing sounds like garbage from someone with an ax to grind, a major screw loose or both._ It could very well be garbage, but the evidence being collected doesn’t point in that direction. Nonetheless, if it _is_ in fact total garbage, the current approach by the Israeli government is doing nothing to establish that fact. In fact, I’d venture to say that the response is more full of wild and irrelevant accusations than the original article. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/49 "2009-08-23T09:08:20Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > If the Israelis in fact _aren’t_ doing anything like this, it’s their obligation to lay the facts out for public scrutiny and discussion, not sound like hysterical paranoiacs flinging wild accusations of rabid nationwide anti-Semitism using 60-year-old history. What facts can they possibly present to defend themselves from this accusation? “Here are the journals that do not mention harvesting organs from Palestinians?” “Here is the report from the commanding officer, which does not mention harvesting organs from Palestinians?” “Here are the people who did not receive Palestinian organs?” Wouldn’t people just accuse them of doctoring the records to hide the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/50 "2009-08-23T09:22:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > What facts can they possibly present to defend themselves from this accusation? If their organ transplant program were on the same level as the rest of the Western world, they’d probably have incontrovertible documentation all along the line, from original donor through transport to operation, including documentation on blood type and histological compatibility. Y’know, things that other medical experts from _outside the country_ could look at and pronounce genuine. The rest of us would therefore be able to relegate claims of doctoring and obfuscation to the same areas of our brain that are concerned with Obama’s birth certificate and what happened to the Pentagon on September 11. As it is, since there seems to be an established routine of illegal organ trading (with an accompanying lack of firm documentation) and backhanded condoning by various administrations, there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of facts Israel could present to defend themselves from this accusation. If they haven’t documented where their organs came from in the first place because doing so would expose them to international condemnation, then there’s no way to prove that further accusations with some evidence to back them up are baseless. Much easier to point fingers and scream “Anti-Semitism! Holocaust enablers!” ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/51 "2009-08-23T12:04:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He’s trying to draw some sort of equivalency between the Swedish government not denouncing a newspaper article (presumably of dubious accuracy) last week, and the Swedish government not declaring war on Germany 50 years ago. And why criticize Sweden? It was the smartest thing they ever did. Back to the OP I am shock at the statistics of ilegal transplants in Israel. I am a lawyer of one of Argentina´s best known transplant clinics and here - I repeat Argentina -, I’ve never heard of things like this: there is a centralized system, every organ is controlled in all steps of the process, there are waiting list, etc. If those statistics are true then the article allegations pale in comparison. Somehow, I think they are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/52 "2009-08-23T12:54:02Z")
New developments (sorry, in Swedish, haven’t found an English equivalent yet): [http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/israel-i-storoffensiv-mot-sverige-1.936641](http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/israel-i-storoffensiv-mot-sverige-1.936641). This is from a more well regarded newspaper than Aftonbladet :). Rough translation (far from perfect, but I’m in a hurry): > [@](#): > > **Israel on the offense against Sweden** > > Israel is winding up their tone against Sweden further, due to the controversial article in Aftonbladet. Several ministers are now demanding condemnations from the Swedish government and Aftonbladet’s staff in the country is being actively opposed. > > - “We demand and expect a formal condemnation from the Swedish government”, says Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu after Sunday’s government meeting in Jerusalem, according to the paper Jerusalem Post. > > After the article, which describes allegations of Israeli soldiers stealing organs from dead Palestinians, Foreign Minister Carl Bildt and Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt have expressed understanding for the Israeli reactions but also made clear that the Swedish constitution forbids the government to condemn newspaper articles. > > But Israel is winding up their tone against Sweden further. Earlier Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has been attacking Sweden, but apart from Netanyahu, even Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz is too now. > > Without specifying exactly what he means, there is a threat that Bildt’s planned trip to Israel scheduled for the beginning of September might be cancelled. > > - “Whoever is unwilling to condemn such blood libel could be considered a persona non grata in Israel”, Steinitz says according to the newspaper Haaretz. > > He added that the Swedish government can’t remain on the sidelines and that the crisis will remain until Stockholm changes its mind. > > - “Israel can not ignore such a manifestation of anti-semitism” > > Even Social Minister Isaac Herzog criticizes Sweden after the government meeting. > > At the same time Daniel Seaman, chief for the Israeli governments press office, clarified that a reporter and a photographer from Aftonbladet is being actively worked against in Israel. Their applications for permission to pass into the Gaza strip might now take up to three months to judge. > > - “We might have to examine their blood type to ensure that they are suitable organ donors”, Seaman said, known for radical statements. > > Bildt has put forward his opinions of the conflict in his personal blog. According to Haaretz, Benny Dagan, Israels ambassador to Sweden, was also highly critical to this during his meeting with the cabinet secretary Frank Belfrage on Friday. > > Dagan asked whether Bildt was writing as a private person, as Foreign Minister, or representing EU’s presidency [Sweden is currently in that role]. > > On Saturday the Swedish Foreign Ministry suddenly started linking to the blog directly from their webpage, with a new post by Bildt. > > - “He is saying everything as Foreign Minister”, Karin Nylund at the governments press office says. > > She is stating that the Foreign Ministry also at earlier occasions linked to the blog, but can’t clarify when. Nylund also says that Bildt writes on the blog as Foreign Minister, but that it isn’t the governments channel. > > TT: But is the blog Sweden’s foreign policy’s line? > > - “In some way it is, he is always Foreign Minister” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/53 "2009-08-23T14:23:42Z")
> [@Walpurgis](#): > > Literal translation: What is: > [@](#): > > Levy Izhak Rosenbaum förs bort av FBI-agenter. Rosenbaum ska ha fungerat som mellanhand i den illegala organhandeln. We got a Jewish FBI agent? 🙂 Perhpas a reference to the Rabbis accused of illegal organ handling in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/54 "2009-08-23T14:39:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Levy Izhak Rosenbaum förs bort av FBI-agenter. Rosenbaum ska ha fungerat som mellanhand i den illegala organhandeln. Levy Izhak Rosenbaum taken away by FBI agents. Rosenbaum believed to have operated as a middleman in the illegal organ commerce. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/55 "2009-08-23T15:22:09Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Levy Izhak Rosenbaum taken away by FBI agents. Rosenbaum believed to have operated as a middleman in the illegal organ commerce. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/56 "2009-08-23T17:37:40Z")
[Netanyahu to Sweden: Condemn IDF organ harvesting article](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109455.html) [QUOTE=Linked Haaretz article] Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz strongly criticized the Swedish government on Sunday, saying that its silence in face of the Aftonbladet article charging IDF soldiers with harvesting organs from dead Palestinians is tantamount to a diplomatic crisis. “Anyone who is unwilling to condemn such a blood libel could be considered unwanted in Israel,” Steinitz said. […] “Israel cannot ignore such a manifestation of anti-Semitism,” Steinitz said. [/QUOTE] So this is now a “diplomatic crisis” :rolleyes:. The response from our Prime and Foreign ministers seems to be that they won’t give in to the Israeli demands. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/57 "2009-08-23T18:08:02Z")
Our Foreign Minister appears to have been reported by the Social Democrats to our _Committee of the Constitution_, which monitors the government’s work and makes sure they comply with the rules regulating their behavior, on grounds that their statements so far might already have run afoul of [Chapter 1](http://www.riksdagen.se/templates/R_PageExtended____6314.aspx) of [the Freedom of the Press Act](http://www.riksdagen.se/templates/R_Page____6313.aspx) of our [constitution](http://www.riksdagen.se/templates/R_Page ____ 6357.aspx) (official English translations). So it seems like Netanyahu is asking for something that is even constitutionally forbidden in Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/58 "2009-08-23T20:13:36Z")
The photo of the person said to be Bilal shows a closed incision that does not appear typical of either autopsy incisions (typically Y or U-shaped) or of incisions made to remove organs such as kidneys (I have seen examples of such). Apart from the question of authenticity (if the Israelis are supposedly instituting blackouts and returning bodies secretly under army guard, how did this photo get taken and revealed?) it’s impossible to tell why the body was cut open (for embalming? Medical treatment?) or by whom. If the Palestinians had custody of the body surely a doctor could have determined if the organs were intact, or if any had been removed professionally as for transplantation (when organs are removed for autopsy study the process is far less elegant than when they need to be preserved for transplantation). And I really, really doubt that all these graves of supposedly “disappeared” Palestinians have been sealed in concrete or something and placed under guard so that no forensic post-mortems can be done. Any Palestinians making these charges have only to get a team of expert forensic pathologists in (I can think of several who’d love the publicity) and they could prove/disprove the claims. But it’s apparently much easier to play to conspiracy theorists and the sleaziest elements of the tabloid press. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/59 "2009-08-23T20:24:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Any Palestinians making these charges have only to get a team of expert forensic pathologists in (I can think of several who’d love the publicity) and they could prove/disprove the claims. How long into the decomposition process (which probably varies because of various factors) is it possible to determine whether all organs are present? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/60 "2009-08-23T21:03:20Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The photo of the person said to be Bilal shows a closed incision that does not appear typical of either autopsy incisions (typically Y or U-shaped) or of incisions made to remove organs such as kidneys (I have seen examples of such). Apart from the question of authenticity (if the Israelis are supposedly instituting blackouts and returning bodies secretly under army guard, how did this photo get taken and revealed?) it’s impossible to tell why the body was cut open (for embalming? Medical treatment?) or by whom. These are very good points, worth following up on. I might try contacting Boström, see if I can’t get at least an answer as to how he got the photo in the first place. > [@](#): > > _If the Palestinians had custody of the body surely a doctor could have determined if the organs were intact, or if any had been removed professionally as for transplantation (when organs are removed for autopsy study the process is far less elegant than when they need to be preserved for transplantation)._ From the description of the burial, it really sounds like the Palestinians never had custody of the body - the soldiers came in with Bilal’s corpse, switched the hospital gown he was still wearing with a burial shroud, grabbed a couple of his relatives to dig the grave and mix the cement, and stood by while the work was finished. There was no opportunity for Bilal’s family to go get a doctor, nor does it seem like there was any opportunity to plan ahead for such a contingency during the five days Bilal was missing. > [@](#): > > _And I really, really doubt that all these graves of supposedly “disappeared” Palestinians have been sealed in concrete or something and placed under guard so that no forensic post-mortems can be done._ Argument from personal incredulity. Here’s a [link](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22920091-15084,00.html) from The Australian and [one](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21541605.htm) from Reuters that specifically mention the use of cement in gravedigging within the occupied territory of Gaza. It’s therefore reasonable to assume that burials of any Palestinians, disappeared or not, regularly involve cement. Neither I nor the article made any claims about the graves being put under guard after the burial, either. > [@](#): > > _Any Palestinians making these charges have only to get a team of expert forensic pathologists in (I can think of several who’d love the publicity) and they could prove/disprove the claims._ Honestly, the way these burials seem to be conducted, the family would have to be lucky enough to have a doctor in the right place at the right time _and_ manage to get him past the Israeli troops watching over the process. > [@](#): > > _But it’s apparently much easier to play to conspiracy theorists and the sleaziest elements of the tabloid press._ Just as it is apparently much easier to cry “Anti-Semitism!” and create a diplomatic incident with a government that has no control or input into the situation instead of openly addressing the question and disproving it. Not that I don’t believe it could be done, but again - given the murky background of the Israeli organ transplant trade to begin with, it just doesn’t seem Israel’s going to be able to do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=4)