# Israel shocked at Swedish tabloid's freedom of speech **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198 "2009-08-21T14:09:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/101 "2009-08-24T17:46:40Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > If the Swedish government were to do that it would set a very dangerous precedent, implying that they are somehow responsible for everything that is printed in Swedish newspapers and anything that they do not condemn is something they approve of. This is why they can not and should not condemn or apologize for something a privately owned newspaper prints. Had demands like that come from a country like Iran or Burma no one would have been surprised, but from a democracy like Israel? Appalling. Look upthread. That precedent was already set, when Iran _did_ ask Sweden for an apology over the Mohammad cartoons – and got one. At least as a matter of image, it seems like the Swedish government ought to explain why it’s handling this incident differently. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/102 "2009-08-24T18:35:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Look upthread. That precedent was already set, when Iran _did_ ask Sweden for an apology over the Mohammad cartoons – and got one. > > At least as a matter of image, it seems like the Swedish government ought to explain why it’s handling this incident differently. According link the apology to Pakistan amounted to ‘I’m sorry if the publication hurt muslim feelings.’ It was wrong to give Pakistan that much then, just as it would be wrong for the current government to condemn the article or apologize to Israel now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/103 "2009-08-24T18:38:25Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > At least as a matter of image, it seems like the Swedish government ought to explain why it’s handling this incident differently. Sweden’s image is less likely to be tarnished by Jews ranting than by Iranians exploding? ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/104 "2009-08-24T18:49:15Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > According link the apology to Pakistan amounted to ‘I’m sorry if the publication hurt muslim feelings.’ > It was wrong to give Pakistan that much then, just as it would be wrong for the current government to condemn the article or apologize to Israel now. The situation is different, the drawings hurt some peoples feelings, to express regret that this was the case didn’t infringe on the freedom of the press (or so it seem to me). To even regret that feelings have been hurt will have severe repercussions _if_ what the article hint, however improbable, is proven fact some day. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/105 "2009-08-24T18:51:14Z")
Also note that our FM at that time, Laila Freivalds, was forced to resign due to her handling of the Muhammed crisis, and that the CotC statements came after that. Well, it was apparently on her own volition, but she had said that the situation had become completely untenable for her to continue in that role. So it can be said that the current stance is due to the legal clarifications from the aftermath of the Muhammed event, and that our current Ambassador overstepped her bounds with her statements. Unfortunate, but not grounds for sidestepping it further. I think if you ask her personally, that is her opinion. That she personally distances herself from the allegations. In her role as Ambassador it was however wrong to express that. Despite those mistakes, I see Israel’s actions as severely overreacting and their anger misdirected. I mean, c’mon, risking diplomatic relations with a friendly nation over an independent private paper’s op-ed article? Restricting movement of Swedish journalists in Israel. Death threats? Boycotts? To me it seems very much out of place for a country like Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/106 "2009-08-24T19:05:56Z")
Damn, they are on to us. 😛 > [@](#): > > **[Special report: Sweden’s dirty secret](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3766042,00.html)** > > Does Swedish salmon secret involve horrific crimes against Norwegian villagers? > > […] > > **Swedish Foreign Ministry’s response** > We are stunned by this baseless anti-Swedish report and expect the Israeli government to harshly condemn it. The absence of any condemnation is reminiscent of the Ben Gurion government’s feeble response to Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte’s assassination in Jerusalem in 1948. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/107 "2009-08-24T19:21:14Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > (The burden of proof, in this case, is not with the Palestinians but with the Israelis, in whose custody these men died and under the supervision of whom their bodies were cut open - and if **Jackmannii** is correct, not for purposes of autopsy.) This misrepresents what I posted. I said that the pictured incision is not typical of either autopsy incisions or those made for organ harvesting. The burden of proof for accusations such as these lies upon the persons making them. > [@](#): > > Boström says “Israel has a shortage of organs for transplant, and they’ve been participating in the illegal organ trade for God knows how long. Palestinians are dying in Israeli custody and coming back cut up like medical school cadavers. What’s going on?” A sensationalistic remark that has no demonstrated basis in reality. He has no idea what was “cut up”, merely a photo of some person with a sutured incision. > [@](#): > > Frankly, saying that he personally doesn’t know whether it’s true or not makes it even _less_ of a conspiracy theory; if it were, he’d assert it was true no matter what evidence - or contradictory evidence - was presented. No, quite a few backers of conspiracy theories do this nudge-nudge wink-wink charade of throwing out various theories and dubious shreds of evidence while piously proclaiming their objectivity. > [@](#): > > This just in: An answer from Donald Boström. Translated text in full: “Naturally the story’s going to be misrepresented. You’re quite right that it was difficult to take the pictures. We didn’t use the larger regular cameras but a small ordinary compact camera I happened to have in my pocket while my assistant and I were walking around in the dark. We managed to take five pictures; there are a lot more details like the soldiers’ reactions, etc. I can assure you that the pictures are the genuine article from that night.” Um, any explanation of how he managed to get right up next to a body that the Israelis were supposedly eager to get in the ground under blackout conditions and seal in cement to conceal their perfidious activities, while somehow managing to take flash pictures without getting “disappeared” himself and winding up with heart, liver, kidneys and various other organs removed and transplanted into Israelis flashing huge wads of cash? Any word on why none of the U.N. officials who supposedly are convinced of this wouldn’t go on the record? Or why there’s been no Palestinian forensic investigation? Or why he didn’t take his big scoop to a respected major media outlet instead of Tabloid Trashiskoe Svenska? :dubious: > [@Henrichek](#): > > Death threats? Since when has the Israeli government made death threats? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/108 "2009-08-24T19:28:10Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Um, any explanation of how he managed to get right up next to a body that the Israelis were supposedly eager to get in the ground under blackout conditions and seal in cement to conceal their perfidious activities, while somehow managing to take flash pictures without getting “disappeared” himself and winding up with heart, liver, kidneys and various other organs removed and transplanted into Israelis flashing huge wads of cash? Any word on why none of the U.N. officials who supposedly are convinced of this wouldn’t go on the record? Or why there’s been no Palestinian forensic investigation? Or why he didn’t take his big scoop to a respected major media outlet instead of Tabloid Trashiskoe Svenska? Tell you what; it was easy enough to find him to ask him the first question. Why don’t you look him up yourself and ask? ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/109 "2009-08-24T19:36:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Since when has the Israeli government made death threats? [QUOTE=Dagens Nyheter (translated by me upthread)] At the same time Daniel Seaman, chief for the Israeli governments press office, clarified that a reporter and a photographer from Aftonbladet is being actively worked against in Israel. Their applications for permission to pass into the Gaza strip might now take up to three months to judge. - “We might have to examine their blood type to ensure that they are suitable organ donors”, Seaman said, known for radical statements. [/QUOTE] That was a joke on his part, of course. I didn’t mean to imply that their government has made death threats, I merely intended to draw a parallel between the Muslim people’s reaction and the Israeli one, the Muslim reactions often being criticized for their savagery. I understand that there are just some crazies responsible for those threats, and crazies exist everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/110 "2009-08-24T19:37:28Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Tell you what; it was easy enough to find him to ask him the first question. Why don’t you look him up yourself and ask? Pretty cool that you managed to get an answer. I’m sure his mailbox is quite full after all this. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/111 "2009-08-24T20:17:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This misrepresents what I posted. I said that the pictured incision is not typical of either autopsy incisions or those made for organ harvesting. What _does_ it look like to your experienced eye (no irony intended)? The incision look too extensive for treatment for shot wounds. Is it autopsy, embalming or organ harvesting? It start at the jaw, would something in the neck be needed for either? > [@Jackmannii](#): > > somehow managing to take flash pictures without getting “disappeared” himself Are you sure its a [flash picture](http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/multimedia/dynamic/00998/17s04bilalaBY_jpg_998448b.jpg)? The shadow look more like a searchlight to me. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/112 "2009-08-24T20:32:22Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > Pretty cool that you managed to get an answer. I’m sure his mailbox is quite full after all this. Yeah, I was expecting not to hear back from him for a couple of days; less than half an hour blew my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/113 "2009-08-24T20:53:23Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > What _does_ it look like to your experienced eye (no irony intended)? The incision look too extensive for treatment for shot wounds. Is it autopsy, embalming or organ harvesting? I don’t know - but let’s all guess organ harvesting! > [@](#): > > It start at the jaw, would something in the neck be needed for either? It would make more sense for an autopsy (though Y or U-shaped incisions are traditional in Western countries for this purpose). Needing to extend a neck incision that high is unusual for an autopsy but even more so for a medical procedure i.e. organ harvesting. We don’t transplant thyroid glands or carotid blood vessels. > [@](#): > > Are you sure its a [flash picture](http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/multimedia/dynamic/00998/17s04bilalaBY_jpg_998448b.jpg)? The shadow look more like a searchlight to me. Really? Could be. “Hey Yitzhak, shine a powerful searchlight on that body so the tabloid reporter who we’ve allowed within a couple feet of the body can take photos to document the evil things we’ve been doing!!” 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/114 "2009-08-24T21:10:56Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It would make more sense for an autopsy (though Y or U-shaped incisions are traditional in Western countries for this purpose). Needing to extend a neck incision that high is unusual for an autopsy but even more so for a medical procedure i.e. organ harvesting. We don’t transplant thyroid glands or carotid blood vessels. OK, we get it’s unusual. Would a simple vertical incision of that length be a hindrance to the removal of internal organs or an autopsy? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/115 "2009-08-24T22:46:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I reckon they’d wonder how come an IDF unit was taking a body from a hospital to a Palestinian graveyard for burial. > 🙂 This is maybe the easiest question of the thread to answer, though I’m making a guess. What civilian Israelis would be willing to return a corpse to a Palestinian neighborhood where the locals are convinced he was murdered by the Israelis? It wouldn’s surprise me if they delivered him in an armored personnel carrier among a column of tanks. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/116 "2009-08-25T02:21:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > “Hey Yitzhak, shine a powerful searchlight on that body so the tabloid reporter who we’ve allowed within a couple feet of the body can take photos to document the evil things we’ve been doing!!” 😕 Well where would you be shining the searchlight? Maybe in the opposite direction to where the work was taking place? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/117 "2009-08-25T02:52:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > What civilian Israelis would be willing to return a corpse to a Palestinian neighborhood where the locals are convinced he was murdered by the Israelis? I expressed my point badly. Why return the body at all? Wire concrete blocks to the ankles and dump it into the Med. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/118 "2009-08-25T02:54:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I expressed my point badly. Why return the body at all? Wire concrete blocks to the ankles and dump it into the Med. Or incinerate :dubious:? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/119 "2009-08-25T03:07:14Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > Or incinerate :dubious:? Or put it under the concrete slab in some settlement construction. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/120 "2009-08-25T04:42:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Or put it under the concrete slab in some settlement construction. Jimmy Hoffa, meet your new neighbor Yassir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=7)