# Israel shocked at Swedish tabloid's freedom of speech **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198 "2009-08-21T14:09:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/161 "2009-08-25T15:46:34Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Your original contention seemed to be that this organ stealing accusation was different because it was directed at an ethnic group. Now it appears that you are saying that it is not directed towards an ethnic group. It IS directed at an ethnic group. I said in the last post that is not directed at _all_ Jews, since we appeared to be focusing on the word “entire.” It’s not “the Chinese government,” “the Russian mafia,” or “the Israeli army” that is being accused of organ harvesting here, it’s depicted as a large conspiracy among Israeli Jews in the government, army and medical profession. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/162 "2009-08-25T15:49:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If the IDF were running concentration camps to fatten Palestinians for feasting on, and one had absolute proof, merely mentioning the fact makes you worse than Hitler. Now this crosses a line. Eating Palestinians is an absolute no-no for Israelis, as they are not kosher\*. Harvesting their organs for transplant, well that would be OK, like blood transfusions from Muslim donors or intravenous heparin derived from pigs, because you’re not actually _consuming_ the forbidden fruit, as it were. I expected better from you, **Malthus**. And not safe in months without an “r”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/163 "2009-08-25T15:51:58Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > You are probably right in that observation. > > Unfortunately I am not as knowledgeable about Swedish legal matters as I should be. During my time here on the Dope and previous internet addiction I have accumulated more knowledge about the US system than our own :smack:. > > My understanding though is that the Committee doesn’t make law, but they decide if a member of the government should be prosecuted in the Supreme Court. So after the Muhammed thing our FM was referred there and questioned and so on, and they issued comments which probably can be seen as policy, but not strictly law. > > Here’s a rather thin Wiki article, not much to learn there though: [Committee on the Constitution - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_the_Constitution_%28Parliament_of_Sweden%29) > > Hopefully somebody here knows how this works better than me, though I doubt we have any Swedish lawyers around. I will try to read up a little on the subject. > > ETA: Their english page has more info: [http://www.riksdagen.se/templates/R\_Page\_\_\_\_5772.aspx](http://www.riksdagen.se/templates/R_Page ____ 5772.aspx) Very interesting stuff. Thanks for posting it. I am getting an education. 🙂 My inexpert review is that this is a form of higher administrative decision-maker, whose pronouncements are at least somewhat binding on the government - like an ombudsman. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/164 "2009-08-25T15:52:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It IS directed at an ethnic group. I said in the last post that is not directed at _all_ Jews, since we appeared to be focusing on the word “entire.” It’s not “the Chinese government,” “the Russian mafia,” or “the Israeli army” that is being accused of organ harvesting here, it’s depicted as a large conspiracy among Israeli Jews in the government, army and medical profession. Yes, the people involved are largely Jews but that is simply because Israelis are mostly Jews. The accusation doesn’t have to do anything with the Jewishness. We have: People accusing the Chinese government, army, and doctors conspiring to take organs from prisoners. People accusing the Israeli government, army, and doctors conspiring to take organs from captured/killed Palestinians. They are in essence the exact same accusation. I don’t understand why the first shouldn’t be considered racist while the second one should be considered anti-semetic and an extension of blood libels. By your standards, it is impossible for anyone to believe that Israel engages in nefarious activities without being anti-semitic. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/165 "2009-08-25T15:54:23Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Now this crosses a line. > > Eating Palestinians is an absolute no-no for Israelis, as they are not kosher\*. > > Harvesting their organs for transplant, well that would be OK, like blood transfusions from Muslim donors or intravenous heparin derived from pigs, because you’re not actually _consuming_ the forbidden fruit, as it were. > > I expected better from you, **Malthus**. > And not safe in months without an “r”. You are ignoring that commentary from Rabbi Ben Alechem in the Talmud which conclusively establishes that Palestinians are, in fact, a type of **fish** for ritual purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/166 "2009-08-25T15:55:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Very interesting stuff. Thanks for posting it. > > I am getting an education. 🙂 > > My inexpert review is that this is a form of higher administrative decision-maker, whose pronouncements are at least somewhat binding on the government - like an ombudsman. You’re welcome 🙂 I didn’t think anybody would really be interested though, my citations are mostly for transparency reasons. I knew that the constitution cites weren’t a very strong argument for my opinion, but as the constitution has been discussed it would be fair to show all cards. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/167 "2009-08-25T16:11:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Whoah. I think you just invented the _nos quoque_. “Our soldiers do it, so yours must too!” > > It’s a pretty good argument, really. Actually the argument is “All other soldiers thoroughout the history of the world do it, so why would yours be any different”. It’s the Real World™, not Disney World. Believe what makes you feel best I guess. I don’t kid myself into believing that the Swedish soldiers in Afghanistan don’t get up to some evil shit. A friend of mine did three tours in Kosovo with the UN and told me what they did and saw done by others. Nice European boys. Blonde even, some of them. But yeah, I’m sure Israeli soldiers are different. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/168 "2009-08-25T16:14:12Z")
> [@treis](#): > > People accusing the Chinese government, army, and doctors conspiring to take organs from prisoners. > > People accusing the Israeli government, army, and doctors conspiring to take organs from captured/killed Palestinians. . Actually the Chinese government, army and doctors are probably also largely the same ethnic group, even though China is more ethnically diverse. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/169 "2009-08-25T16:20:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Yes, the people involved are largely Jews but that is simply because Israelis are mostly Jews. And it’s because they are Jews that they are being accused of stealing organs from Muslims. > [@](#): > > They are in essence the exact same accusation. I don’t understand why the first shouldn’t be considered racist while the second one should be considered anti-semetic and an extension of blood libels. Is there a historical blood libel against Chinese or Russian people? If so, go ahead and say they’re part of a traditional falsehood in the same kind of way. Until then it looks like simple xenophobic stupidity instead of being part of a very old myth that may actually have harmed people. > [@](#): > > By your standards, it is impossible for anyone to believe that Israel engages in nefarious activities without being anti-semitic. Not true at all, and also totally irrelevant to the topic we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/170 "2009-08-25T16:30:21Z")
> [@treis](#): > > By your standards, it is impossible for anyone to believe that Israel engages in nefarious activities without being anti-semitic. You know, this debate would go a lot smoother if people did not constantly chant that refrain. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/171 "2009-08-25T16:36:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And it’s because they are Jews that they are being accused of stealing organs from Muslims. No, it’s because they’re Israeli. Nobod is accusing non-Isareli Jews of stealing organs. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/172 "2009-08-25T16:38:08Z")
An interesting curiosity that isn’t really relevant, is that the Bonnier family owns most of the largest Swedish newspapers, although not Aftonbladet. Aftonbladet on the contrary, is owned by the Norwegian company Schibsted ASA. The Bonnier family also owns the largest book publishers here, they own a great majority of all cinemas, and the largest Swedish motion picture production company, as well as several TV channels, including the largest one. They are the giant media business group in Sweden ([Bonnier group](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnier_Group)) And they are Jewish 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/173 "2009-08-25T16:42:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it’s because they’re Israeli. Nobod is accusing non-Isareli Jews of stealing organs. Except Levy Itzhak Rosenbaum. 😉 Who really did get involved in illegal organ sales and isn’t Israeli, but is somehow connected to the stories the author heard. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/174 "2009-08-25T16:43:14Z")
**Henrichek** , are you accusing Jews of controlling the media? Tsk. (;)) ETA: I knew somebody would bring up those rabbis! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/175 "2009-08-25T16:44:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it’s because they’re Israeli. Nobod is accusing non-Isareli Jews of stealing organs. The first paragraph of the article in question: > [@](#): > > You could call me a “matchmaker,” said Levy Izhak Rosenbaum, from **Brooklyn, USA,** in a secret recording with an FBI-agent whom he believed to be a client. Ten days later, at the end of July this year, Rosenbaum was arrested and a vast, Sopranos-like, imbroglio of money-laundering and illegal organ-trade was revealed. [Emphasis added] The clear insinuation in the article is that this is an _international_ conspiracy involving Jews from other parts of the world (specifically, the US) in collusion with Israelis. The part about the US guy is true, or at least a true accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/176 "2009-08-25T16:48:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Henrichek** , are you accusing Jews of controlling the media? Tsk. > > (;)) Here they are upfront about it ;). Oh, look. The company is even over 200 years old, there must be an ancient conspiracy hidden here somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/177 "2009-08-25T16:48:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: I knew somebody would bring up those rabbis! Amusingly, Rosenbaum was the one who was misidentified as a rabbi by a couple of publications. He is not a rabbi. The rabbis in that story were involved in money laundering, not organ dealing. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/178 "2009-08-25T16:55:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The part about the US guy is true, or at least a true accusation. In that case I hope we agree that he wasn’t accused because he is a Jew and that this accusation isn’t blood libel whatever his ethnicity. The accusation seem to show tracks back to Israel too, though he brought the whole donor to USA, not just a robbed kidney. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/179 "2009-08-25T16:57:42Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > In that case I hope we agree that he wasn’t accused because he is a Jew and that this accusation isn’t blood libel whatever his ethnicity. The accusation seem to show tracks back to Israel too, though he brought the whole donor to USA, not just a robbed kidney. It’s not a libel of anything if it’s true. In any case he’s accused of trying to get paid to set up a kidney transplant from a living and willing donor, and he’d allegedly been setting up such transactions for a while. While that’s unethical and nauseating to most of us, it’s on a different level from killing people and then stealing their organs. That’s murder and desecration of a body; this is bribery and perhaps exploitation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198/180 "2009-08-25T17:09:45Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > In that case I hope we agree that he wasn’t accused because he is a Jew and that this accusation isn’t blood libel whatever his ethnicity. The accusation seem to show tracks back to Israel too, though he brought the whole donor to USA, not just a robbed kidney. The difference between an actual news story and re-hashing of old (or ancient) urban myths isn’t all _that_ difficult to perceive. The hallmark of the urban myth is that the accusation is based on rumour and innuendo, and alleges a vast and malevolent conspiracy in which the conspirators are both fiendishly clever _and_ moronically stupid at the same time (thus explaining why the discoverer is in a position to blow the whistle on them). The objects of the conspiracy are often counter-intuitive (harvesting organs from guys shot to death with military weapons in random fire-fights? Unlikely - would involve a large number of persons from Israeli soldiers through medical personnel all involved in the conspiracy, any one of whom could talk, all for rather dubious benefits). The particular sub-species of urban myth that takes the form of an ethnic slur also tends to involve biased allegations and suppositions from people who have reason to dislike the ethnicity at issue and tends to track pre-existing mythology concerning the ethnicity under attack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-shocked-at-swedish-tabloids-freedom-of-speech/507198.md?page=10)