# Israel stations nuclear-armed subs off Iranian coastline **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314 "2010-05-30T20:45:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/1 "2010-05-30T20:45:19Z")
From [Timesonline:](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece) > [@](#): > > Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline. > > The first has been sent in response to Israeli fears that ballistic missiles developed by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah, a political and military organisation in Lebanon, could hit sites in Israel, including air bases and missile launchers. > > The submarines of Flotilla 7 — Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan — have visited the Gulf before. But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels. Waitaminnit – how does anybody know this? I thought Israel had never yet **admitted** having a nuclear capability. Anyway, what’s the point? Does Iran exercise such direct control over Hezbollah, that a threat to Iran is an effective deterrent to a Hezbollah attack? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/2 "2010-05-30T20:52:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Waitaminnit – how does anybody know this? I thought Israel had never yet admitted having a nuclear capability. Well now, that’s a really good question. As far as I know, Israel has never admitted to even having nuclear weapons at all, let alone nuclear armed cruise missiles. Since they have never, again as far as I know, done any kind of nuclear testing I would say that either the article is complete bullshit or they bought such weapons from someone else (I suppose the US would be the most likely candidate), since I don’t think you could build a reliable nuclear weapon small enough to go on a cruise missile without doing some testing. Hell, afaik, you couldn’t build any sort of multistage nuclear weapon without some testing, not if you wanted it to actually work as it’s supposed to. Personally, I’d like to see where they are getting this information from, as it seems a bit suspect to me. > [@](#): > > Anyway, what’s the point? Does Iran exercise such direct control over Hezbollah, that a threat to Iran is an effective deterrent to a Hezbollah attack? Of COURSE they do. Iran controls the purse strings, and Hezbollah is highly unlikely to do anything against Iran’s wishes. If the Iranian’s directed HB to back off, they would certainly back off, just like if the Iranian’s directed them to push things, they would do that. So…Iran would have strategic control IOW, as opposed to direct tactical control (though my guess is that if Iran wanted to, they could exercise this level of control as well). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/3 "2010-05-30T21:36:31Z")
Somebody, Netanyahu maybe, did slip a while back and make mention of a nuclear capability. Either way, it doesn’t matter. Israel **IS** a nuclear power. Everyone knows it, or more importantly, everyone considers it true in terms of any action they may or may not be planning to take, Iran included. They definitely did NOT buy any nukes from the US, that would be a violation of the non-proliferation treaty and an immense scandal. Believe it or not supercomputer technology has been at a level for long enough that nuclear weapon design can be reliably tested ‘virtually’. Suffice it to say that whether or not the article is true, Israel **does** have nuclear weapons deliverable via sub-launched cruise missiles. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/4 "2010-05-30T22:28:25Z")
The story smells to high heaven. Even the United States doesn’t openly state that any given warship carries nuclear missiles, though, obviously, a lot of them do. There’s no possible way anyone outside the IDF or the highest levels of Israeli government knows where these submarines are or what they’re carrying. We don’t know if Israel has the capability to mount nuclear weapons on submarine-launched missiles, nor, so far as I am aware, does anyone outside the IDF know that. The story is based on no verifiable evidence, claiming only that the commander of the flotilla, named just “O,” said “We operate a long way from our borders” or some such meaningless comment. No other source is cited for the claim, none at all. The flotilla’s commander, unless he’s a traitor, would not tell some journalist where his country’s nuclear weapons are being deployed. Furthermore, it makes no fucking sense. The Dolphin-class submarine is diesel-electric, not nuclear, so it can’t stay underwater. Why in the name of Christ would Israel plop one into the middle of the Persian Gulf where it has to keep surfacing? Frankly, the article looks like total bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/5 "2010-05-30T23:00:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > …The Dolphin-class submarine is diesel-electric, not nuclear, so it can’t stay underwater. … Lazy. Google hard! You cite, make easy? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/6 "2010-05-30T23:11:13Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Either way, it doesn’t matter. Israel **IS** a nuclear power. Everyone knows it, or more importantly, everyone considers it true in terms of any action they may or may not be planning to take, Iran included. They definitely did NOT buy any nukes from the US, that would be a violation of the non-proliferation treaty and an immense scandal. > . . . > > Suffice it to say that whether or not the article is true, Israel **does** have nuclear weapons deliverable via sub-launched cruise missiles. I’ve always been frustrated with this . Why should Iran, who signed the NPT, be refused blueprints for a nuclear reactor generate electricity while Israel, who hasn’t signed the NPT, can possess nuclear weapons? If I were Iran, I’d give a big middle finger to the U.N, too. It’s not an equitable policy and I don’t blame the Iranians for not playing along with the farce. It reminds me of the the Ally Bank commercial with the kid and pony. While I don’t support Iran obtaining nuclear weapons (and support unilateral U.S military action to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons), I don’t think its in the U.S best interest for Israel to possess them, either. If Israel can’t properly utilize cluster bombs or run an assassination without it being broadcasted on Youtube, what makes anyone think it can detonate a nuclear weapon with any kind of restraint or precision? None of these Middle Eastern countries should have nuclear weapons and should be forced to disarm. Unlike the majority of Americans, I don’t fear Iran - a country that hasn’t started a war in hundreds of years. I’m more fearful of North Korea. My opinion of Israel would increase 1000 fold if they’d sent those submarines to South Korea in a show of support of a country whose existence could _really_ be wiped off the map from a hostile, nuclear-armed neighbor. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/7 "2010-05-30T23:31:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Lazy. Google hard! You cite, make easy? What, you want a cite that an air-breathing engine can’t operate underwater indefinitely? How about [this](http://science.howstuffworks.com/nuclear-submarine3.htm), then: > [@](#): > > In contrast to the diesel-electric subs that preceded it (and are still in service around the world today), the Nautilus had a practically unlimited range. What’s more, it could stay underwater for great lengths of time because it didn’t have to surface to recharge electric batteries. And while most submarines were designed to travel primarily on the surface and dive on occasion, the Nautilus was designed to remain underwater and only surface on occasion. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/8 "2010-05-30T23:32:07Z")
Sounds bogus to me as well. Having diesel-electric Israeli subs in the Gulf would be a nightmare for the US Navy-what would the repercussions be if the Navy depth-charged an Israeli sub? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/9 "2010-05-30T23:43:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Waitaminnit – how does anybody know this? I thought Israel had never yet **admitted** having a nuclear capability. How does anybody know that OJ got away with murder? He never exactly admitted it, did he? That Israel has a nuclear arsenal is an open secret, everybody knows it. A public declaration by Israel would gain it nothing and have only negative consequences for it. [FAS article on the Israeli Popeye Turbo SLCM](http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/missile/popeye-t.htm), the nuclear cruise missiles in question. They were test fired 10 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/10 "2010-05-30T23:43:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > What, you want a cite that an air-breathing engine can’t operate underwater indefinitely?.. No shit? I was asking about the identification as to “Dolphin” class submarines, about which I know squat. If I Google “dolphin” and “weapons” I get Aerosmith, “Flipper’s got a gun, _chicka wang wang_…Flipper’s got a gun…” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/11 "2010-05-30T23:50:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If I Google “dolphin” and “weapons” I get Aerosmith, “Flipper’s got a gun, _chicka wang wang_…Flipper’s got a gun…” And if you google “dolphin” and “submarine”, three of the top four links are about the Dolphin-class submarine. > **[SSK Dolphin Class Submarine](https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/dolphin/)** > > Israel’s three Dolphin Class submarines were designed by Ingenieurkontor Lubeck Prof Gabler Nachf GmbH (IKL), a subsidiary of Howaldtswerke-Deutche Werft… > [@](#): > > Propulsion > > The submarine is powered by three 16V 396 SE 84 diesel engines… The endurance of the submarine is 30 days. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/12 "2010-05-31T00:06:52Z")
And the identification of the submarines deployed as being _Dolphin_ class submarines? You see, what I find remarkable here, and I think friend **RickJay** does as well, is the extraordinary openness regarding what is ordinarily pretty classified stuff. Already pretty much knew about the limitations of deisel engines on submarines. But thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/13 "2010-05-31T02:37:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And the identification of the submarines deployed as being _Dolphin_ class submarines? > > You see, what I find remarkable here, and I think friend **RickJay** does as well, is the extraordinary openness regarding what is ordinarily pretty classified stuff. The basic capabilities of the Dolphin-class submarine are not really a secret; the sub was built in Germany and is based on a German design. And I don’t actually think Israel has any other KIND of submarine; their navy is pretty small. What’s a secret is what, precisely, its nuclear weapons capabilities are. I mean, what’s the article’s basis for its claim? “A guy named O told me, oh, and **he’s the commander of the flotilla**.” Yup, yup, sure, sure. Because the guy wouldn’t tell me his name, but he did tell me he was commander of the frickin’ submarine fleet. And of course the Israelis wouldn’t know who they had in command of their submarine fleet… oh, no, wait, of course they would. Shit, it’d be almost public knowledge. So why on earth would the guy go to a journalist and tell him this and pretend to be able to hide behind a pseudonym? It’d be like Barack Obama dropping hints to a journalist and the journalist running an article saying “This was given to me by a high level government source, the President of the United States, who shall be known here only as B.” ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/14 "2010-05-31T03:15:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’d be like Barack Obama dropping hints to a journalist and the journalist running an article saying “This was given to me by a high level government source, the President of the United States, who shall be known here only as B.” Nicely done. I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/15 "2010-05-31T03:25:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Believe it or not supercomputer technology has been at a level for long enough that nuclear weapon design can be reliably tested ‘virtually’. Actually, I’m not so sure. I imagine that the nuclear weapons work itself is classified, but similar codes and the same hardware are also used for things like supernova simulations (which are _not_ classified), and those all have some pretty serious issues. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/16 "2010-05-31T03:40:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, I’m not so sure. I imagine that the nuclear weapons work itself is classified, but similar codes and the same hardware are also used for things like supernova simulations (which are _not_ classified), and those all have some pretty serious issues. The main issue with SN simulations is that the relevant length scales are so much smaller then the size of the object you’re simulating that you end up having to make a bunch of simplifications since trying to get the whole thing in memory at the necessary resolution would be impossible. Presumably this would be much less of an issue with Nuclear devices, since they’re considerably smaller then stars. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/17 "2010-05-31T04:57:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The basic capabilities of the Dolphin-class submarine are not really a secret; the sub was built in Germany and is based on a German design. And I don’t actually think Israel has any other KIND of submarine; their navy is pretty small. What’s a secret is what, precisely, its nuclear weapons capabilities are. They also have three Gal class submarines (Gal is Hebrew for wave), but they’re old. The scuttlebutt, from a 2003 Los Angeles Times article, is that Israel’s got modified Harpoons capable of a nuclear payload. But I’m also skeptical of this article, for the reasons you gave. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/18 "2010-05-31T05:37:32Z")
The general point of submarines is not knowing where they are. So saying they’re going to be in X area on a regular basis wouldnt be such a clever move. But saying they could be from a deterrent perspective might be, as you could never be sure they werent really there? Ie making it clear the capability exists, even if you choose not to use it. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/19 "2010-05-31T05:45:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The story smells to high heaven. > > Even the United States doesn’t openly state that any given warship carries nuclear missiles, though, obviously, a lot of them do. > Frankly, the article looks like total bullshit. You have to advertise a deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314/20 "2010-05-31T05:57:56Z")
In regards to testing bombs, you’re not really testing bombs, you’re testing _designs_, right? If you build one bomb according to a set of instructions, and it works, then you have considerable confidence that another device, or ten, or a hundred devices, all made the same way, will probably go bang. In that sense, any bomb made from a design that has been tested, regardless of whom it was tested by, can be regarded as “tested”. So there is no need to test the weapon and take whatever risks that may entail. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stations-nuclear-armed-subs-off-iranian-coastline/541314.md?page=2)