# Israel ! stay the hell away from EU **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508 "2002-12-29T15:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/161 "2003-01-02T18:09:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*I see the point you are making, but still…inappropriate. \*\* I don’t hear Naxox\_dec.2002 complaining, about either the observation I made or the underlying fact. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/162 "2003-01-02T18:41:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Naxox\_dec.2002 \* > \*\*wrong all three times \*\* Please name the European nation we are talking about so I have an opportunity to refute your allegation. ---
**Author:** ![wikkidpis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f05b48/32.png) [@wikkidpis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wikkidpis)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/163 "2003-01-02T18:46:12Z")
Because you “fear” a large & powerful Jewish lobby, huh? All the other large powerful lobbies are ok, I guess. And there you go again, with the “Jewish” jazz, even after its been noted, over and over, that Jews and the state of Israel are not one and the same. You give not a shit about the state of Israel. You hate and fear Jews and want them out of Europe. Or, rather, you don’t want them back in. You’ve pretty much owned up to it, but why don’t you just go ahead and be honest and stop pretending that you are just a critic of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/164 "2003-01-02T18:49:18Z")
Coldie said in the first page that Naxox is posting from the non-EU country of Norway. That’s what makes this kid particularly laughable. Yo, Naxox, we’ve pretty much disproved the whole concept of a “Jewish lobby” in the U.S. Do you have any proof at all of such an existance or are you totally full of hot air. If you want to play here, you’re going to have to prove your assertions. 1. Show us where there is a Jewish Lobby in the U.S. This is a different thing than a pro-Isreal lobby. 2. Show us how allowing Israel in the E.U. will somehow increase the presence of a Jewish Lobby in your country. 3. This one is just for my curiosity. Have you ever truely interacted with Jewish people in your life? Haj ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/165 "2003-01-02T19:28:46Z")
Just a comment: - In the Nordic countries the lobbying is not “allowed”. It makes more harm than good, because the voters reacts quite hard on such. **hajario** wrote: > [@](#): > > Coldie said in the first page that Naxox is posting from the non-EU country of Norway. That’s what makes this kid particularly laughable. Why? Did You think Norway lives in a vacuum? EU has it’s effects all over Europe, as does some decisions made in US also reflect into Europe. Even into Norway. I hold with Naxox in the point that he made about the crisis in ME. As we already earlier written, the “Jewish lobby” is an improperiate expression. It should be “pro-Israelian lobby”, if You call it something. Anyhow, I am against any kind of lobbyism, but I know that there is a lobbying going on in EU all the time. For me, that is from a as small country as Norway, the whole EU-parliment and it’s work and decisions (partly made after lobbying) are too far away from me as a voting citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/166 "2003-01-02T19:39:43Z")
Yeah, Henry, but in your world the EU has some magical control over Russia’s parliament. Methinks it’s not Norway that’s living in a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/167 "2003-01-02T19:46:07Z")
Norway, eh? Islamic Council – whose charter involves defending Islamic and minority rights Secular Humanists – claiming 1.5% of the population, stressing multiculturalism and non-theist ethics Jesuit Catholics – doing the Jesuit Catholic thing B’nai Brith’s, Keren Kajemet Le’Israel, WIZO – All using their influence to promote the principles of the Jewish .2% of the Norwegian population. There are plenty of non-secular groups in Norway with an interest in influencing legislature. What there _isn’t_ is a religious group operating with some form of collective hive-mind to subvert the majority. If that is your definition of a group that lobbies, then maybe you are thinking of Amway or the clams. ---
**Author:** ![Naxox\_dec.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/13edae/32.png) [@Naxox\_dec.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxox_dec.2002)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/168 "2003-01-02T20:10:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \* > \*\*Norway, eh? > > Islamic Council – whose charter involves defending Islamic and minority rights > > Secular Humanists – claiming 1.5% of the population, stressing multiculturalism and non-theist ethics > > Jesuit Catholics – doing the Jesuit Catholic thing > > B’nai Brith’s, Keren Kajemet Le’Israel, WIZO – All using their influence to promote the principles of the Jewish .2% of the Norwegian population. > > There are plenty of non-secular groups in Norway with an interest in influencing legislature. > > What there _isn’t_ is a religious group operating with some form of collective hive-mind to subvert the majority. If that is your definition of a group that lobbies, then maybe you are thinking of Amway or the clams. \*\* this is almost laughable and where shall I start. the most funny moment here was the jesuit catholic. This groups was banned in this country until the 1950’s (I think). I can’t say I know of a single person which is jesuit here. I know there are som catholics, but I have never heard that they are involved in lobbyism. Secular Humanists – probably a bit closer there, but not what can call a powerfull lobbygroup. They work mostly through media. Islamic Council – about the same as secular humanist I believe. muslims are a growing number here (unfortunately), but their influence are margial compare to their number (fortunately). “B’nai Brith’s, Keren Kajemet Le’Israel, WIZO – All using their influence to promote the principles of the Jewish .2% of the Norwegian population.” There is no way that the jews here make up as much of 2% of the population. I would say that they are under 0,2%. There are however other groups and organizations that support the jews (especially christian ones). The lobby groups that my be powerfull is the industrial groups, but lobby groups aren’t so powerfull here as in US and EU. We have however a ethnic group (the saami) that have their own parliament with limited influence. ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/169 "2003-01-02T20:37:13Z")
**Monty** , You wrote: “Yeah, Henry, but in your world the EU has some magical control over Russia’s parliament.” How did You come to such a conclusion? Can You rephrase something that I have written or what? Btw., it’s called “duma”, but that does not matter, I understood what You meant by Russia’s parliment". **Waverly** There is tens of thousends of assosiations in the Nordic countries. According to the law, we need three citizens to register an assossiation. Then we leave an A4 to the nearest registration-place. (In Finland more than 400 registering places). So it takes about one cup of coffee to do it. There is all kind of assosiations. Everything from religious ones, to “The assosiation for Worldshampionship in boot-throwing”, “Beer-drinkers north of the North Circel”. One very famous one, been in TV all over the world: “The assosiation for Worldshampionship of carrying the wife”. Also “Free alcohol and broader streets” (Broader streets is needed, if the former gets true.) Assosiations is not the same as lobbyists. If an assossiation want to say something to the parliment, we do it like this: We put up a delegation and leave an address to the parlimentary parties that have formed the government and copies of the address to the opposition parties. That means also that all addresses (papers) are public. I would not call that lobbying. Henry ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/170 "2003-01-02T21:04:39Z")
Lobbying procedures in Norway. [http://www.scotland.gov.uk/government/devolution/ppdp-06.asp](http://www.scotland.gov.uk/government/devolution/ppdp-06.asp) > [@](#): > > There are formal procedures for lobbying activity detailed in the Standing Orders of the national Parliament, the Stortinget, which refer to the consultation practice within committees in that a committee can arrange an open hearing where representatives from organisations or other groups can meet and give evidence on behalf of their cause. (This is, as will have been seen above, a common practice in many devolved parliaments also). Each Committee itself decides who is invited to the hearing. > > There is however no Register or Code of Conduct for lobbyists BTW, lobbyists to the European Parliament have to register. > [@](#): > > The European Parliament has enacted the most recent legislation covering lobbying activity (1996). This was due to the large growth of lobbying activity and commercial lobbyists. All lobbyists must sign a Register, detailing name and address of firm; client details and subject of interest. They must also sign an accompanying Code of Conduct (reproduced in Appendix I to this report) in order to be issued with a pass. > > The Register is administered by the College of Quaestors and is open to the public. > > Note should also be made of the attention given, in drawing up this legislation, to the registration of MEPs Assistants and secretarial staff. And in Finland… > [@](#): > > There is no system of registration or regulation. Lobbyists contact representatives and political parties on an informal basis. As in Norway… there is a formal consultation procedure for interest groups for the preliminary preparatory work on legislation in the Parliamentary Committees. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/171 "2003-01-02T21:11:10Z")
Naxox, I believe the secular humanists were successful in getting multicultural topics added to school curriculums as earlier as the 1970’s. Even if this claim is false, how else would they attempt to forward this goal if not through lobbying legislature? As for the Islamic Council, you correctly recognize that they function like the secular humanists, so where is the disagreement here? I won’t comment on your seeming repulsion that people of this religion share your country. Perhaps you were confused by the N. American decimal point, but I did indicate that the Jewish population was 1/5 of 1%. Since you seem to recognize that there are groups that support Jewish interests, again you seem to be agreeing with me. I never made any mention as to how powerful or successful these groups were at lobbying, I was just demonstrating that they exist. Perhaps the best example is the Saami, who you yourself mention. In short, when you stated I was wrong on all three counts, you knew that I was in fact correct. Henry B, Agreed, not every group necessarily lobbies, but when a group has stated political goals that they work toward like the Islamic Council, Secular Humanists, or the Keren Kajemet Le’Israel, I think it’s fair to call them lobbyists. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/172 "2003-01-02T21:18:36Z")
[http://ud39.mogul.no/cgi-bin/wbch3.exe?p=4835](http://ud39.mogul.no/cgi-bin/wbch3.exe?p=4835) > [@](#): > > 17 MAY 2002 > REMARKS BY THE AMBASSADOR OF NORWAY, > ASBJØRN EIDHAMMER > > …The constitution of 1814, with its principle of sovereignty of the people and liberal rights, was hard fought for and jealously protected. During the first 20 years after 1814 our members of parliament refused to make any change in the constitution, for fear that the basic concept of separation of powers and the role of the parliament, would be undermined. Later, amendments and improvements have been made, but only after the people in a general election has been allowed to consider such proposals when choosing their members of parliament. > > But our constitution, although the most liberal in Europe at its time, also contained provisions that future Norwegians should not be proud of. One paragraph simply read: “Jews and Jesuits must not be tolerated”. It took more than thirty years before Jews were allowed into our country, and it was in fact only in the nineteen fifties that the constitution was finally amended to also tolerate Jesuits among us. For 140 years this provision was a disgrace on our constitution and our democracy, until tolerance finally prevailed. According to [http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh\_252.html](http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_252.html) there are probably between about 35,000 and 40,000 Catholics in Norway. Around 90% of Norwegians are Evangelical Lutherans. And according to this [Adherents.com - Online Payday Loans - Same Day Payout](http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_253.html) in 1998 there were a grand total of 1,500 Jews in Norway. Out of a total population of 4,481,162 (July 2000 est.) Somehow I don’t think either the Catholics or the Jews have much of a lobbying presence in Norway. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Naxox\_dec.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/13edae/32.png) [@Naxox\_dec.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxox_dec.2002)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/173 "2003-01-02T21:30:47Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Waverly \* \*\* Since you seem to recognize that there are groups that support Jewish interests, again you seem to be agreeing with me. but I would not call them an important lobby group. Most of them are counted as religious fundamentalists that aren’t taken serious. There was more common for more normal people to support Israel and the jewish case before, but that changed back in the 70’s. Over 50% of the pm’s in our parliament was member of a org. called “Venner av Israel” (friends of Israel). Not many are member of that org. anylonger * * * Lobbyism are a rather new thing in politics. Such groups where not so relevant some 20-30 years ago as they are today (don’t know about USA) ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/174 "2003-01-02T21:37:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > Somehow I don’t think either the Catholics or the Jews have much of a lobbying presence in Norway. 😃 Not much political presence is not the same as having _no_ political presence. What I was trying to demonstrate was that lobbyists exist independent of whether Israel sits on the map in the Middle East, on the Horn of Africa, or in the Sea of Tranquility; and will continue to exist whether Israel enters the EU, NATO, or the Intergalactic Federation. ;j Naxox, The backpeddling is unbecoming. Either wear you tinfoil hat with pride, or put it away. Whatever their size, success rate, or origin, are there groups supporing Jewish interests or no? ---
**Author:** ![Naxox\_dec.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/13edae/32.png) [@Naxox\_dec.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxox_dec.2002)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/175 "2003-01-02T21:38:10Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Waverly \* \*\* Since you seem to recognize that there are groups that support Jewish interests, again you seem to be agreeing with me. but I would not call them an important lobby group. Most of them are counted as religious fundamentalists that aren’t taken serious. There was more common for more normal people to support Israel and the jewish case before, but that changed back in the 70’s. Over 50% of the pm’s in our parliament was member of a org. called “Venner av Israel” (friends of Israel). Not many are member of that org. anylonger * * * Lobbyism are a rather new thing in politics. Such groups where not so relevant some 20-30 years ago as they are today (don’t know about USA) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/176 "2003-01-02T21:44:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Henry B \* > **Monty** , You wrote: > “Yeah, Henry, but in your world the EU has some magical control over Russia’s parliament.” > > How did You come to such a conclusion? Can You rephrase something that I have written or what? > > Btw., it’s called “duma”, but that does not matter, I understood what You meant by Russia’s parliment". Look, asshole, if you’re going to post something on a message board, you might want to try and realize that it’s going to be there for the world to see. You posted this > [@](#): > > EU forbids our parliament to do anything about it! on page three of this thread. “Duma” translates into English as “Parliament.” Just because you are one step above [sub](possibly below)[/sub] a complete illiterate doesn’t mean that I am. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/177 "2003-01-02T22:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \* > \*\* > Please explain your phobia a bit more so we can either address it or mock it. Are the elders of Zion living under your bed? \*\* Mommy, I can’t sleep. There are Elders of Zion under my bed, and Jehovah’s Witnesses in the closet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/178 "2003-01-02T22:07:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > And according to this [Adherents.com - Online Payday Loans - Same Day Payout](http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_253.html) in 1998 there were a grand total of 1,500 Jews in Norway. > > Out of a total population of 4,481,162 (July 2000 est.) > > Somehow I don’t think either the Catholics or the Jews have much of a lobbying presence in Norway. 😃 [No, I don’t suppose that they do:](http://www.dhh-3.de/biblio/news/1997/0624/) > [@](#): > > Norway’s leaders yesterday repudiated a government commission’s inquiry into the wartime treatment of Norwegian Jews, saying that its final report dramatically understated Norwegian culpability in looting Jewish assets, sending a third of the country’s Jews to die in Nazi death camps, and turning away Jewish claims after the end of World War II. > > . . . > > During the Quisling government, 767 Jews were deported to Auschwitz in late 1942 and early 1943. Only 28 survived. An estimated 1,100 Jews fled to Sweden, while Norwegian bureaucrats looted the possessions of 1,179 Jewish families and 71 Jewish companies. Today, fewer than 2,000 Jews remain in Norway. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/179 "2003-01-02T22:16:21Z")
Oh, and from the same link . . . I thought this was rather curious in light of Naxox’s assertion that there’s no such thing as “lobbying” in Norway: > [@](#): > > The release of the report followed a week of controversy. Reports disclosed that the commission was bitterly divided and that an organization of former Nazis had given a scholarship to a commission researcher. The second highest ranking official at the Justice Ministry then said that the dissident members, both appointed by Norway’s Jewish community, were not to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508/180 "2003-01-02T22:25:33Z")
**Monty** I do not know about all of Your news-servises, but some of them uses the word “duma”, because that has been the historical name. But I am not arguing about it. In other languages, other than Russian, we here in Europe use the word “duma”. **Monty! I am very sorry to say this, but You are illiterate.** Even a child would finds out from my posts in this thread, that I am speaking about Finland. **Monty** I know this is the Pit, but if You have any upbringing at all, You do not begin a conversation with calling unknown people names. But, yes I can be illiterate in English, when I write it, but please post me in which other languages I can send You more information **how to read English.** We might have other languages in common, languages that I write better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-stay-the-hell-away-from-eu/145508.md?page=10)