I see that you are privy to plenty of US-Israeli propaganda. The logistics of the region would not allow for Israel to survive any war with Iran.
Iran survived and 8-year war with 114 nations including the USA and the UK. Israel was days away from losing to Egypt. They may have all of the best American military technology but Iran is a one of the top ten largest nations in the world. Israel will not use nuclear weapons on Iran because that would result in a nuclear attack by Pakistan (considering that Pakistan and Iran have a military pact). Without nuclear weapons, Israel’s 20,000 square miles will be flattened. Iran will sustain major damage but nothing worse than 8 years of war with Iraq (and 114 other countries).
As for your cute military analysis of Iran’s hardware, it is dated and quite misleading. Iran’s military is only second to Israel in the region (and that includes Turkey). Just because Iran does not have American jets does not mean that they have old and decrepit aircraft. In case you have forgotten, it has been over 20 years since the Shah has left. The army is close to a million now, so your arguments about the army are flaccid at best.
Finally, to sum up your mostly ignorant tirade, Iranians are not Arab. If you had an ounce of brain power you would know that. This fact alone discredits your biased post.
And Iran fought Iraq to a draw. And when the U.S. really wanted to, it wiped up Iraq’s army in both Gulf I and Gulf II without breaking a sweat. Your insinuation that Iran can defend itself against the U.S. or UK is ridiculous.
Let me get this straight - Israel is being pounded into rubble under a rain of missiles, but it won’t try to stop it because of a risk of being attacked by Pakistan? This is ridiculous. And besides, all Israel would have to do is tell Pakistan that any launch against Israel would result in a nuclear rain on Pakistan, and they’re out of the game. You think Pakistan is going to destroy itself for Iran?
And there is no chance of a pre-emptive strike getting Israel’s missiles, because Israel has at least one nuclear ballistic missile sub.
Really? How about you list the forces that Iran has, and we can talk about it?
And if the first two gulf wars taught us anything, it’s that raw numbers are irrelevant. Israel and Turkey have modern armies that participate regularly in wargames and undergo western-style training, including joint training with American forces and other forces. Israel’s army in particular has shown itself to be one of the best, most effective fighting forces on the planet.
In constrast, Iran’s army is a ragtag conscript affair, poorly trained, and under-equipped.
And in those 20 years, the military has not improved much. And it has been damaged heavily since then by the Iran/Iraq war.
The numbers I gave above, in any event, came from estimates of its arsenal in the year 2000. At that time, Iran’s air force consisted of 55 F-4 Phantoms, of which only 1/4 were in flying condition, 60 F-5’s in the same condition, 20 F-14’s, mostly unflyable, 40 MiG-29’s, 40 SU-22’s, 50 Su-24’s, 24 Mirage F1’s, and 12 Mig-23’s. Plus a handful of Chinese F-6’s and F-7’s.
These aircraft get little flight time, are in poor repair, and their pilots are probably not trained very well. If war broke out, less than half of these aircraft could even struggle into the air, as Iran is very short of spare parts and mainenance equipment.
This air force should look familiar - it’s similar in composition to what the Iraqis had, and we all know what happened to the Iraqi air force when it went up against a truly modern force. Israel would cut through the Iranians like butter.
First of all, I never said that Iranians were Arabs. Of course they’re not. So you need to retract that. Especially considering that you called me ignorant when I provided accurate, hard numbers, and you responded with generalities and rants.
And second, personal attacks are verboten in Great Debates. So why don’t you try improving your attitude?
I don’t think that’s the part of the quote that is getting the dubious look.
Please. Israel would annihilate Iran if it attempted to attack Israel. If Iran attacked Israel with missiles, Iran would be destroyed. And not just by Israel but by US forces stationed in the area. Should Israel destroy Iran’s nuclear facility, Iran would raise a protest in the UN and that’s about it. To do anything else would be suicide on their part.
While neither the US nor Israel could occupy Iran at this juncture, they could destroy it quite easily. Pakistan also would do nothing. Despite the number of times you keep bringing up this supposed military alliance between Pakistan and Iran, you have yet to provide a cite for it. And in any case it doesn’t matter. So long as Israel has the backing of the US, any nation attempting nuclear war with it is doomed. Pakistan knows this, Iran knows this. There will be no launching of missiles from their end.
So you admit that Israel has the better military?
That is correct. However, while it is not necessary for Iran to have American jets for them to not have old and decrepit aircraft, the fact remains that their air fleet is woefully inadequate and incapable of hanging with the Israelis. They have old and outdated MiG’s, among a hodgepodge of whatever else they could scrounge up, and haven’t been able to get the parts to keep them in top condition. While China (among others) has helped out some, it’s not nearly enough.
I’m assuming you are referring to the Iran-Iraq War. Of course, that’s a load of crap. Had the US or the UK become directly involved, Iran would have been beaten quite badly. And of course, this also ignores the fact that the US played both sides off of each other, giving Israel permission to supply Iran with US made weapons such as TOW and Hawk missiles. The US also provided intelligence to the Iranian military.
Let’s just set the facts straight. Iran is a huge and very influential country in the ME. But it still is no match for Israel’s military, unless Israel tried to invade Iran with ground troops.
Region? What has the region to do with it? Israel has nukes, Iran doesn’t. Therefore if any flattening is done, Iran won’t be doing it.
Really? 114, you say? Is Canada one of them? Seems to me I would have read that in the Montreal Gazette.
The pace of recent middle-eastern wars is that they only take days, when one or both sides has high tech. Besides, Israel rallied and crushed the Egyptians into little bitty pieces.
As far as I can tell, Iran is 15th or 16th by area, and maybe 15th by population. And this translates to miliatry might… how?
Any use of nuclear weapons by Pakistan just invites their nuclear flattening by India. And how is Pakistan supposed to deliver the nukes? Fedex?
And who are these 114 countries, by the way?
The standard Iraqi military deployment has been to send thousands of young lightly-armed men to their deaths. How much high-tech do you think Iran has? How could they possibly match the confirmed conventional armaments of Israel?
I guess I have an ounce, then, becuase I deliberately referred to Muslim nations, not Arab nations in an earlier post. Trouble is, nothing you’ve said shows you even have that much.
And just for laughs, let’s say seven out of ten Iranian missiles get through. When Israel fires back with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, how many of those will get through?
You believe what you are told without having first hand knowledge.
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If you knew anything about the war (which you do not), then you would know that The US, UK and 112 other countries supplied Iraq with soldiers, weapons and logistical support.
In addition, I never said that Iran could take on the US or the UK, so work on your reading skills.
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You have no clue about what Islam is all about. You also have no clue about the political climate in Pakistan.
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I do not have a comprehensive list and neither does anyone but Iran.
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If history has taught us anything is that Iran has never been defeated.
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Yes, it is exactly like Iraq. It does not have a standing army of 1 million or anythig like that.
Your ignorance on this topic is crystal clear.
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If those are western estimates then they are false.
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Sure, thing skippy.
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You are ignornat of the topic at hand.
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My attitude will remain the same as long as troglodyts as yourself try to debate me with paper tigers of knowledge.
If Admin does not like my attitude then they are free to ban me.
You and I both know who controls the Gazette, so I ignore that piece of trash.
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Yes, FedEx.
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Do your own research. Go down to the Mcgill library and check out a book.
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Iraq is not Iran
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Ouch, you hurt my feelings.
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They will all get through. Here is a question for you. What happens if Iran already has one or two nuclear warheads? What if they are already aimed at Israel? Where do you think the traces of enriched uranium came from?
You know, I think this is a pretty bad question. It’s like saying “How are they gonna knock down our buildings, hijack planes and deliberately crash them?”
So, ‘troglodyts’ such as me are not allowed to use ‘paper tigers of knowledge’ (i.e. facts), whereas your assertions are backed up by… what? We are supposed to accept everything you say without request for any backup?
Methinks you don’t understand what this board is all about.
Silly discussion… who cares if the US can crush Iran ? We know they can… I wanna see them do that and justify it to voters. Now if the voters dont care its another problem. They will die in the terrorist attacks that will follow…
The issue is how can an intelligent american president solve these problems without bombing countries into smitherens. Any idiot (Bush) can send bombers. Diplomacy and geopolitics require much more. Even Rome negotiated once in a while… and they lasted some centuries.
Now Israel is bombing their neighbor and seem pretty certain the US will back 'em up. Is that acceptable to american citizens/voters ? Are other 9/11 worth in order to defend heavy handed Israeli atitudes ? Israel at some point will have to stop fighting. They cant remain a nation under arms and fighting constantly forever. Either they beleive they can do it by the gun all the way (unlikely)... or at some point they will have to change their attitude.
I think I saw on TV that Pakistan recently launched a rocket capabale of delivering nukes… considering that Israel isnt that far… it doesnt have to be a big rocket, does it ?
Low flying jets or commercial airliners would do fine too. You can never have 100% effective defense.
Jeez, louise 2Thick, I’ve seen some patriotic blindness before ( usually in the context of American Cold Warriors who assumed the USSR at it’s height would have been a conventional pushover ), but this is ridiculous.
I’m sorry but this is nonsense. In point of fact neither country is capable of doing much more than incidental structural damage to each other, short of a nuclear exchange, which only Israel is currently in a position to engage in. That IS predicated on the logistics of the region, as any glance at a map should make obvious.
This is a misleading statement, despite the kernel of truth. Iraq’s primary backers in the U.S., the Gulf and Western Europe poured money and material into Iraq, true enough. But Iraq’s ineptitude meant that poor enough use was made of them. Iran did generally do a better job than Iraq in a number of respects, but Iraqi material superiority and Iranian tactical-doctrine errors ( the mullahs learned the wqrong lesson from the initial couple years of Iranian success ) did them in eventually.
Not at all true. Neither state was days away from losing. Egypt was potentially days away from losing a cut-off army corps, but was hardly at the end of their strength and had good strategic depth, if need be. Israel, though somewhat precariously exposed ( Sharon’s maneouver was clever and turned the tide, but it was risky ), was back on the offensive and in danger of, at worst, losing momentum again.
So is Brazil. This is not a particularly useful way to judge military capabilities.
I have yet to see your cite for this pact. Do you have one, with full text and details?
My take is that Pakistan, who has had ongoing border tension with Iran, will be outraged and alarmed by an Israeli nuclear strike and will join in any political condemnation they can at maximum volume, but will not lift a finger to strike at Israel.
I’d like a cite on this as well. On what do you base this assessment? If we count Pakistan in the region, I’d be inclined to list it as:
Israel
Maybe Turkey ( qualitatively they are likely the best of the rest after Israel )
Maybe Pakistan
Maybe Egypt
Maybe Iran
All of the above are debateable, but I’d like to see your detailed argument of Iran’s superiority.
Size is not unimportant, but it is far from the whole story. The Iraqi military establishment was quite large as well.
Eh? It’s been defeated plenty of times. By the early Caliphate most notably.
I’d like to see the non-western estimates you are using in that case.
