# Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168 "2021-05-15T16:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/281 "2021-05-17T22:13:10Z")
Ok, so do you have a proposal for a better alternative? Or as you are not a military expert, can you find an article that has a better alternative for shutting down the rocket strikes when needed without collateral damage? We can debate how effective a given proposal would be, but I haven’t seen any realistic alternatives at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/282 "2021-05-17T22:15:19Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > If you know where to look: couldn’t you focus (some of) your detecting equipment at the known source? I’m kind of shocked that the IDF hasn’t figured this out yet. It seems so simple. /sarcasm ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/283 "2021-05-17T22:57:19Z")
I’ll note that my frustrations aren’t with this particular chapter of the conflict. It’s the behavior of both parties. While I might seem to bitch more about Israel’s behavior, that’s because I expect better. I fully acknowledge that Hamas has ill intentions in regards to Israel, but that’s not true of the majority of Palestinians. To those who say that the Palestinians are at fault as they are voting for Hamas (I personally find it questionable that Hamas has won said elections), I say Israel is at fault for voting for the Likud idiots. Again, if you want to say one side (Hamas) is a terrorist organization, I say fine. So why would I expect them to behave the same or better than the side which claims to have the high ground? Basically, why do you keep electing the Netanyahu’s instead of people who share the opinions of someone like Assaf Harel (Deputy Mayor of Tel Aviv at the moment, but previously actor and talk show host)? People like him I applaud. People like Benji, I consider them your Trump. This is from four years ago, but would have been valid long before that and will remain so in the future. > **[In last monologue, Israeli comedy show host implores Israelis to wake up and...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-03-03/ty-article/israeli-tv-host-implores-israelis-wake-up-and-smell-the-apartheid/0000017f-e2cd-d9aa-afff-fbdd19a20000)** > > Assaf Harel's scathing indictment of Israeli society has gone viral. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/284 "2021-05-17T22:58:50Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > If you are a modern army (shooting Hamas’ rockets out of the sky by the dozens) and you find a launch site in some building that really shouldn’t be bombed. > -Couldn’t you arrange some early warning system to more reliably shoot down the rockets coming from there? Arguably the Iron Dome is THE state of the art system for doing exactly that - shooting enemy missiles out of the sky before they land on one’s territory. I’m sure they’d like a system even more robust, accurate, and capable but it doesn’t exist at this time. > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > -Find some way to follow/arrest/kill the people crewing/supplying said installation? Given how Israel spent decades hunting down Nazis (and are still at it) I’m pretty sure they’re doing similar work in regards to their other enemies. And, indeed, the blockade around Gaza is an example of that - and it’s so tight people complain that necessary food, medicine, and other aid can’t get through it. So… yes, Israel is already doing that. It’s not enough, apparently, as rockets are still raining down on Israel. > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > -Isn’t there more to be gained by creating a stink about it? I doubt that there are many Palestinians thrilled about using schools as launch sites. I suspect that many Palestinians are either unaware that these launch sites are in their school, hospitals, mosques, and apartment blocks, and even if they are aware, I don’t think they have any say in it being done. I suspect that if they did object they’d suffer negative consequences. I don’t think you really have a good and thorough grasp of the situation and encourage you to learn more about the details. On both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/285 "2021-05-17T22:58:51Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I completely accept that there are all kinds of difficulties in operations involving actual humans, but I do not accept that the only viable option is shooting rockets. I’m starting to develop a lot more sympathy for the Israelis the more you post. Can you articulate any of these viable options? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/286 "2021-05-17T23:00:06Z")
I mean to a degree they are not still electing Netanyahu, he has lost four elections in a row. But due to the mechanisms of their constitution and Knesset, no other party has been able to form a new governing majority, so a new government cannot be established. He has been ruling as a caretaker Prime Minister since early 2019 and has failed to win a majority in four elections. Typically this is not an intended state of affairs by the design of their constitution, ordinarily if you lose an election the opposition forms a new governing coalition and the caretaker premiership is just about transitioning to the new government. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/287 "2021-05-17T23:05:43Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > If it is perfectly acceptable to bomb schools, why did we declare it criminal to hide weapons there? The point is: once you hide weapons in a school, it ceases to be a school. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/288 "2021-05-17T23:16:40Z")
I would like to thank @Martin_Hyde for what seems like a fairly balanced analysis. Of course, given the history not everyone will agree with everything. The next question is what can be done to secure a degree of peace? An article today claims Biden does not have an ambassador, full diplomatic staffing, or the relationship that existed between Trump and Netanyahu. Not all of the people in charge might even want peace given political realities. Is it even possible there could be broad agreement on the next steps or is more conflict hard to avoid? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/289 "2021-05-17T23:26:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There are plenty of times when Israel may be wrong but at what point does it sink in for Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. that armed action against Israel always goes nowhere? Do they really think, “okay, the last 50,000 rockets didn’t get Israel to change its mind but these next 200 ones that we’re firing will?” Does Israel really think “okay, the last 50,000 rockets didn’t get Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. to change its mind but these next 200 ones that we’re firing will"? This sort of approach only results in an unwinnable war of slow attrition on both sides. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t quite agree with this. I think it’s ridiculous to claim Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians or that it is the one to blame for these escalations when Hamas is launching off rocket after rocket, aiming at civilians, and without a courtesy call first either. The IRA used to make courtesy calls first too. > [@](#): > > But it’s fair to criticize Israel for other things. I’ve criticized Israel in this very thread for being ineffective, doing little to harm Hamas while creating perfect recruiting conditions for them and generating underservadly bad press. Undeserved or not, it’s fucking predictable, and playing into Hamas’ hands in > > It’s also fair to criticize Israel for its policy in the settlements. It’s not a matter of who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong. I happen to think it’s patently obvious that in these conflicts Hamas is in the wrong, again and again and again. But Israel needs to look at this from a big picture perspective and realize that the settlements are preventing a two state solution from ever happening. Interesting argument: “It’s fair to criticize Israel FOR NOT KILLING ENOUGH PALESTINIANS and also it’s not a matter of who’s in the right or who’s in the wrong ALTHOUGH HAMAS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG.” Let’s be clear here: the Hamas attacks on civilians are horrific. But so are the Israeli attacks on Gaza, and whereas Hamas are a terrorist faction living in a chaotic territory, Israel are supposed to be a stable modern democratic state with a well-disciplined military. It’s not unreasonable to hold Israel to a higher standard. It is not in any way excusing the Hamas attacks to observe the truism that desperate people will inevitably take desperate measures, even where those measures are ultimately counterproductive. But it does also follow that if you want those desperate measures to stop, the **absolute worst** thing to do is to make those people more desperate. > [@UltraVires](#): > > You get to practice your religion. You get to have indoor plumbing. Your kids don’t have to go to war. You live beside us. Nobody is driven into the sea. Everyone lives peacefully and you can come into the first world. Nothing is offered? Sounds like what the US offered the Native Americans. And look how happy they’ve been about it. > [@Babale](#): > > Hamas, meanwhile, targets schools that don’t have a single IDF rocket battery or solider in them. I thought we’d decided that Hamas weren’t capable of “targetting” much of anything at all? As per: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That’s one example of the type of rockets Hamas frequently uses, there are tons of variants and a lot of them are kind hacked together things. They are often fired from cheap fixed-angle launch frames that basically let you do no more than “aim it at Israel.” > > Edit to add: The Palestinians are regularly modifying these rockets to shoot further and further as best they can, but my understanding is they aren’t getting much better with precision. Precision guided rocketry is a non-trivial thing, and you would likely need to smuggle in those from state actors, many of whom aren’t interested in giving them to the Palestinians. I mean, I doubt Hamas care if they blow up a school or indeed who they hit and kill with the rockets they indiscriminately fire into Israel, but that’s not the same thing. > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I am not saying Hamas are such nice people, but the Israelis could stand to ponder for a moment how a population got so disparaged that they are ok with using their schools as launch sites. From the Palestinian population standpoint, I’m guessing that when people with a shitload of weapons (and a certain amount of political authority) come in and say “We’re going to fire rockets from your school windows”, there’s not really a compelling counterargument one can offer at the time. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/290 "2021-05-17T23:26:49Z")
Why Biden rather than an intermediary like Egypt? Does Biden have the kind of connections necessary to negotiate a cease-fire? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/291 "2021-05-17T23:27:28Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I mean to a degree they are not still electing Netanyahu, he has lost four elections in a row. Likud continues to receive the plurality of votes in most elections. Until that stops, I don’t see a peaceful future. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/292 "2021-05-17T23:33:39Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I would like to thank @Martin_Hyde for what seems like a fairly balanced analysis. Of course, given the history not everyone will agree with everything. > > The next question is what can be done to secure a degree of peace? An article today claims Biden does not have an ambassador, full diplomatic staffing, or the relationship that existed between Trump and Netanyahu. Not all of the people in charge might even want peace given political realities. Is it even possible there could be broad agreement on the next steps or is more conflict hard to avoid? I think we’re probably pretty far away now from any serious peace. My strong belief is the two state solution is dead, and that policymakers in the West, Israeli civil society types and friends of Palestine need to recognize this and figure out now how to build a single state that has true equality for all citizens. In many ways this is a project that I think will take much longer than a two state solution **would have taken** , had the path to it not been abandoned many years ago. Right now Israel proper is mostly populated by Arab towns and Jewish towns, and its cities have Jewish neighborhoods and Arab neighborhoods. There are mixed neighborhoods and towns, but they are exceptions that prove the rule. Disturbingly “mob violence” in the street between angry Jewish Israeli Citizens and angry Arab Israeli Citizens have ramped up to never before seen levels during this tension. That’s actually one of the more unfortunate things about it, as it suggests passions and emotions…are not moving in the right direction. I don’t think formal agreements have a part to play at this stage, the framework for those to even be possible is simply lacking. I think Israel needs to stop doing things that antagonize Palestinians (settlement building, evictions from East Jerusalem, unnecessarily confrontational raids at Al Aqsa Mosque etc), and Palestine needs a genuine non-violent opposition movement to supplant and replace Hamas and other militant groups. Even that sounds pie in the sky versus where we are today, the only steps I can see that would help begin the process would be a focus on improving Palestinian quality of life. Normalize to a degree their access to electricity, clean water, infrastructure. To build a viable one state Israel the Israeli government has to show that there can be a better life for the Palestinians in the unified state than in the ghettoized hell they are in now. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/293 "2021-05-18T00:54:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I suspect that many Palestinians are either unaware that these launch sites are in their school I don’t know if you have kids, but it’s the parents’ responsibility to keep their children safe. They absolutely should know if there are rocket launchers at school. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/294 "2021-05-18T01:28:15Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Basically, why do you keep electing the Netanyahu’s instead of people who share the opinions of someone like Assaf Harel (Deputy Mayor of Tel Aviv at the moment, but previously actor and talk show host)? People like him I applaud. People like Benji, I consider them your Trump. This is from four years ago, but would have been valid long before that and will remain so in the future. I would like nothing better. But every rocket is a giftwrapped batch of votes for Bibi, I’m afraid (just as every Israeli strike enhances support for Hamas). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/295 "2021-05-18T01:31:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Interesting argument: “It’s fair to criticize Israel FOR NOT KILLING ENOUGH PALESTINIANS That’s not at all what I said. Like, at all. What I said was that Israel’s effectiveness at killing Palestinians isn’t translating into effectively bringing about peace, so it’s not a good plan and they should probably try something else. Interesting how you read it, though… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/296 "2021-05-18T01:31:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But it does also follow that if you want those desperate measures to stop, the **absolute worst** thing to do is to make those people more desperate That’s basically what I WAS saying. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/297 "2021-05-18T02:40:10Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Couldn’t you arrange some early warning system to more reliably shoot down the rockets coming from there? The annual death rate from the never-ending rocket fire, in Israeli towns near Gaza, has greatly reduced in the past fifteen years, as documented in the Wikipedia article on [Sderot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sderot) . However, forgetting about this month, it remains an unpleasant place that you wouldn’t want to live in if you could afford someplace better. So the answer is – you can arrange an early warning and shoot-down system that generally works, but you can’t arrange it so there won’t be overwhelming political pressure to stop the rockets from coming in the first place. From the Gazan point of view, it is intolerable to not be allowed to return to their ancestor’s homes in pre-1967 Israel, just as it is intolerable to face an enemy that ignores most attacks – thus giving the impression of weakness – and then lashes out. From my pro-Israel standpoint, I could say that the Israelis show enormous patience in the face of attack. Compared to the reaction of China to the relatively tiny bit of Islamic militancy in the Xinjiang Uygur region, the Israelis are indeed lambs. But part of the reason for what I call Israeli patience is that, compared to the Chinese, they have a smaller military and often don’t know what will work. I realize that I am setting myself up for people to say that rocket attacks, outside the usual rocket alley, were used by the Israelis as a pretext for something planned for years. However, it is the nature of war that the pretext for an attack doesn’t tell you much about the dynamics. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/298 "2021-05-18T03:25:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > yeah, I’m sure Israel is blowing up Palestinian civilians for shits and giggles I simply pointed out the facts on the ground and what the international community is saying. Sarcasm is not a response to this. > [@Babale](#): > > Meanwhile Hamas brags about killing civilians and you sweep that under the rug. Huh? I’ve been quite willing to criticize Hamas. I’m on the side of trying to acknowledge wrongdoing, and figure out what should happen going forwards. I’m not interested in waving a tribal flag and deflecting all criticism of one side. ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/299 "2021-05-18T03:58:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > …I don’t think formal agreements have a part to play at this stage, the framework for those to even be possible is simply lacking. I think Israel needs to stop doing things that antagonize Palestinians (settlement building, evictions from East Jerusalem, unnecessarily confrontational raids at Al Aqsa Mosque etc), and Palestine needs a genuine non-violent opposition movement to supplant and replace Hamas and other militant groups. > > Even that sounds pie in the sky versus where we are today, the only steps I can see that would help begin the process would be a focus on improving Palestinian quality of life. Normalize to a degree their access to electricity, clean water, infrastructure. To build a viable one state Israel the Israeli government has to show that there can be a better life for the Palestinians in the unified state than in the ghettoized hell they are in now. While “pie in the sky” reflects what I believe is a realistic assessment in the current state of affairs, I think you are neglecting a critically important factor: both sides (i.e., Israeli and Hamas leadership, at the very least) view the conflict as an existential war. Given that the current hostilities are only the latest manifestation of a long war that runs hot and cold, why would any side make unilateral concessions to their enemy? That’s not how you win wars. You win by crushing your opponent’s will and capability to fight back. That is what Israel is trying to do. While this strategy is undoubtedly creating more enemies, an angry, revenge-minded Palestinian – or even lots of them - is a substantially lower level threat to the homeland than a rocket. I believe it’s misleading to think peace is the intent or goal of either side; and it seems increasingly doubtful that trying to frame the conflict in terms of peaceful resolutions will yield any useful/practical perspective or course of action (though I certainly understand the hope and desire to keep trying). This war is about land and resources and who gets to exploit them. Both sides want it all and believe all will be lost if they don’t get it all. In the face of such perceived all-or-nothing stakes, I see no compelling motive on either side to convince them there is a better way. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/300 "2021-05-18T05:28:06Z")
It is always good to have sympathy for people living in a war zone. I’d like to point out that however inevitable you think the current course of action of the IDF is: It is not working. (Presumably the goal is not to reduce Gaza/Israël to rubble and kill as many civilians as possible- that part is working swell) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=16)