# Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168 "2021-05-15T16:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/321 "2021-05-18T14:09:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It is just as dangerous to give Israel an unfair treatment as it is to give them a blank check. I think if the West is to ever have a role in solving the crisis there needs to be stark realism about it, not raising either side to a pedestal, but judging them for what they do–all that they do. I think this is essentially the right balance to strike here. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/322 "2021-05-18T14:13:37Z")
The root of the problem, as I see it, is the squalor in which the average Palestinian lives and the degree of control that Palestinians have to improve their situation. Where I sympathize with Israel is that Israel has more moderates, probably because their living situation relative to the Palestinians permits more moderation. Palestinians are getting fucked not just by the Israeli right wing but also by their own militaristic, corrupt, opportunistic leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/323 "2021-05-18T14:16:12Z")
Right I agree with this, if you get to grow up in a nice home with running water, electricity (that is on 24/7), internet, air conditioning and you get to go to a school that gives you a good fundamental education, and then have the opportunity to go to college as a young adult or to pursue any number of careers vs growing up in squalor with virtually no career opportunities as an adult–the former scenario is an environment in which a more enlightened moderate mentality can develop. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/324 "2021-05-18T14:22:49Z")
> [@The State Solution: 1 State v. 2 State](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-state-solution-1-state-v-2-state/696795/28): > > Why doesn’t anyone see the clear option here (the only route routinely taken)? Inaction. Hold _status quo_ until one side folds/compromises. > > I simply don’t see any outside imposed/mediated resolution. So, as outsiders, it’s our job to keep everyone calm/fed/educated/safe. All countries should just focus on playing a stable, peaceful, and constructive role until a generation shows up that can deal with some of the troubles. Harm reduction and hope. > > I know the Palestinian conflict has acquired an iconic status, but outsiders can’t “fix” everything (we can only influence things for the better). My guess is that Israel will eventually pull settlers from the West Bank like it did with Gaza (all due to demographics, but not anytime soon and not from Jerusalem). The rest I just can’t predict. This was a quote of mine from seven years ago. It advises that this is a problem that cannot be solved… yet; so outsiders like the USA and others should simply work to create conditions that peace CAN happen in the future (while acting to minimize the real human suffering caused by uncaring/short-sighted and violent actors). In reflection, I think outside countries have taken this approach but their success has been mixed. Israelis still suffer, and Palestinians experience almost nothing BUT suffering. We as outsiders should strive for better. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/325 "2021-05-18T14:33:22Z")
In a semi-ideal world, the U.S. would cut off all military aid to Israel until it pledged an indefinite moratorium on settlement-building and any other encroachment on territory deemed necessary for a Palestinian state. At the same time, a complete demilitarization of Palestinian areas would occur in exchange for massive economic aid from the West and oil-rich Middle Eastern nations to help develop infrastructure and viable industries. In response to these changes, the Israeli electorate would reject religious hardliners that have dominated its policies and concentrate on achievable concessions to make a two-state solution work. Palestinians would be able to develop that “moderate mentality” permitting them to clamp down on their own religious and political extremists, drop impossible demands and concede a permanent place for Israel. Then, after a permanent peace treaty is signed in a stirring ceremony on Alpha Centauri, everyone could go out for barbecue and beer. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/326 "2021-05-18T15:07:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is correct in my opinion. I liken it to the Irish Troubles; the UK is our closest ally, Israel is one of our close formal military allies as well. But we didn’t look at the Troubles as a situation where it was productive for us (the United States) to “pick a side” we took on more of a role of mediator to try and help settle the conflict. That’s the more helpful stance to have w/the Israel/Palestine issue as well. I don’t think it’s coincidence that these were generational conflicts. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/327 "2021-05-18T15:13:57Z")
Israeli Palestinians have gone on strike. More violence in the West Bank. A 6-story building destroyed in Gaza. Israelis huddled for safety as bombs drop. Surely this is untenable for the long term. > **[Palestinians go on strike as Israel-Hamas fighting rages](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-gaza-middle-east-israel-israel-palestinian-conflict-ab0bfc2b25d2a03756fb0c084fca1a3d)** > > Palestinians across Israel and the occupied territories went on strike in a rare collective protest of Israel’s policies. > [@](#): > > With the war between Israel and Gaza’s Hamas rulers showing no sign of abating and truce efforts apparently stalled, Palestinians across Israel and the occupied territories went on strike in a rare collective action against Israel’s policies. > > Violence erupted at one protest on the outskirts of the West Bank city of Ramallah. Hundreds of Palestinians burned tires and hurled stones toward an Israeli military checkpoint. Troops fired tear gas canisters at the crowd and protesters picked up some of them and threw them back. > > One protester was killed and 46 others wounded — including 16 by live fire — in clashes with Israeli troops, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. The Israeli army said two soldiers were wounded by gunshots to the leg. Israel is, IMO, going to start having a real PR problem things like this: “2 killed by Gaza rockets; Israel destroys 6-story tower” and “2 Israeli guards hit in leg by gunfire; guards kill 1 and wound 46”. The proportions seem whack. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/328 "2021-05-18T15:24:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The proportions seem whack. They seem to be exactly what to expect in this situation. When you see a kid lying on the ground getting pounded on by his brother you know the kid on the ground started it. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/329 "2021-05-18T15:27:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It seems to me that _you_ don’t much like the results. Why don’t _you_ suggest something different? > > You think this is a decade long conflict? For a Librarian, you don’t seem all that well informed on the historical context of this generational conflict or the repeated attempts over the years to negotiate a lasting peace. You would be well served in becoming better informed on this topic instead of offering glib action-adventure solutions. I recommend you start with the excellent analysis offered by @Martin_Hyde in this thread. Mod note: This is getting very close to a personal attack on the poster, which is not permitted outside the pit. Cease and desist. No warning yet. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/330 "2021-05-18T15:30:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Israel is, IMO, going to start having a real PR problem things like this: “2 killed by Gaza rockets; Israel destroys 6-story tower” and “2 Israeli guards hit in leg by gunfire; guards kill 1 and wound 46”. The proportions seem whack Yes. That’s why using civilians as human shields is an effective strategy for Hamas, and why they do it so often. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/331 "2021-05-18T15:31:20Z")
Right, military conflicts don’t have to be proportional. The damage we levied onto the Japanese Empire and Nazi Germany was not remotely proportional with the damage they did to us. We literally took modern first world countries and turned them into very large collections of rubble, Germany after its surrender has been called a “Day Zero” state by many historians. On the flipside we had a few thousand dead and some naval assets destroyed in Hawaii and some low level efforts of German saboteurs on the east coast. Not proportional at all. Let’s stop talk of proportionality in war. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/332 "2021-05-18T15:36:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Israel is, IMO, going to start having a real PR problem things like this: “2 killed by Gaza rockets; Israel destroys 6-story tower” and “2 Israeli guards hit in leg by gunfire; guards kill 1 and wound 46”. The proportions seem whack. That’s because one side is using modern military weapons and the other is largely using things like rocks. The proportions are whack. Whack proportions are what happen in such situations. Which does leave the question of WHY people on one side continue to throw rocks at people with modern firearms, but this is an asymmetric conflict… > [@Babale](#): > > Yes. That’s why using civilians as human shields is an effective strategy for Hamas, and why they do it so often. ^ This. Hamas has zero problem with sacrificing civilians on their side, entirely without consulting said ~~cannon fodder~~~~ human shields~~ civilians beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/333 "2021-05-18T15:38:19Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I doubt it. You’ll need to provide some details before I’m convinced. And until Israel provides proof that the destruction of infrastructure is justified, my ears are closed. What details do you need?. Money spent on rockets that invite retaliation and destruction vs money spent on infrastructure that creates jobs. They could be building water desalination plants and improved harbor accommodations. It’s not like their isn’t money in the region that could be used for that. Nobody wants to invest in a country that is being used as a 3rd party war machine. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/334 "2021-05-18T15:41:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nobody wants to invest in a country who is being used as a 3rd party war machine Right - let’s say I was an investor who wanted to aid the Palestinians by building a factory to employee Palestinian workers and bring money into the economy. However generous my intentions, I’d have to be a total idiot to do so without assurance that Hamas won’t take over my factory for their operations, drawing Israeli retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/335 "2021-05-18T15:49:12Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > But I hope other people reading this thread will realize that there just might be something immoral about an Islamic terrorist government that aims its bomb exclusively at civilian targets. But you see, those civilian targets are actually human shields. Israel is known to hide military assets in such places, so it’s justified to indiscriminately raze them to the ground. That excuse sort of smarts when it’s on the other foot, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/336 "2021-05-18T16:13:21Z")
Uh, Israel is not known to use its schools and hospitals as military facilities. If you have evidence of that please share it. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/337 "2021-05-18T16:24:03Z")
[Nonviolent Palestinian resistance](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/05/18/world/israel-gaza-updates#strike-palestinians) today (in the form of a mass strike said to involve _millions_) is a very, very positive development. Such a tactic could, in the long run, become a game-changer. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/338 "2021-05-18T16:48:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But you see, those civilian targets are actually human shields. Israel is known to hide military assets in such places, so it’s justified to indiscriminately raze them to the ground. > > That excuse sort of smarts when it’s on the other foot, doesn’t it? It would if your allegations were worth anything more than a fact in the wind ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/339 "2021-05-18T16:50:42Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > [Nonviolent Palestinian resistance](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/05/18/world/israel-gaza-updates#strike-palestinians) today (in the form of a mass strike said to involve _millions_ ) is a very, very positive development. Such a tactic could, in the long run, become a game-changer Yep, that could be awesome. If a nonviolent alternative to Hamas rises in opposition, that could be a very positive development. It would certainly make it easier for the more liberal Israeli parties to push against the settlements and for peace. Hopefully a ceasefire is close. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/340 "2021-05-18T16:54:36Z")
We might also considering giving a lot more aid to Palestinians provided that groups like Hamas don’t squirrel away the money meant for development and fire missiles on Israelis. Palestinians need aid. Israel needs support; it needs to have confidence that if there is another unprovoked Arab-Israeli or there is an unprovoked Iran-Israeli conflict, the US won’t leave Israel hanging. But I think Palestinians need the aid, need clean water, need hospitals, medicine, fine, good shelter, and Israel needs to stop taking those things away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=18)