# Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168 "2021-05-15T16:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/341 "2021-05-18T17:52:29Z")
As far as I can see, everyone here seems to be assuming that the Israeli government is always telling the truth about, e.g. Hamas activity in that media building, human shields, etc. Maybe they are. On the the other hand does anyone seriously believe that Netanyahu’s government and the IDF don’t lie when it suits them? Does anyone seriously believe that the Israelis don’t run disinformation campaigns? > **[Lies on Social Media Inflame Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (Published 2021)](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/technology/israel-palestine-misinformation-lies-social-media.html)** > > Misinformation has flourished on Twitter, TikTok, Facebook and other social media about the violence between Israelis and Palestinians. > In a 28-second video, which was posted to Twitter this week **by a spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu** of Israel, Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip appeared to launch rocket attacks at Israelis from densely populated civilian areas. > > At least that is what Mr. Netanyahu’s spokesman, Ofir Gendelman, said the video portrayed. But his tweet with the footage, which was shared hundreds of times as the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis escalated, was not from Gaza. It was not even from this week. > > Instead, the video that he shared, which can be found on many YouTube channels and other video-hosting sites, was from 2018. And according to captions on older versions of the video, it showed militants firing rockets not from Gaza but from Syria or Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/342 "2021-05-18T17:59:55Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > As far as I can see, everyone here seems to be assuming that the Israeli government is always telling the truth about, e.g. Hamas activity in that media building, human shields, etc. > > Maybe they are. > > On the the other hand does anyone seriously believe that Netanyahu’s government and the IDF don’t lie when it suits them? > > Does anyone seriously believe that the Israelis don’t run disinformation campaigns? That’s why it’s a good thing that Israel has a free and critical press and a very active opposition party to keep Netanyahu in check. Which makes one side of the conflict for which this is true. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/343 "2021-05-18T18:04:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s why it’s a good thing that Israel has a free and critical press and a very active opposition party to keep Netanyahu in check. Which makes one side of the conflict for which this is true. Yes, it’s such a pity that some of the free and critical press in Gaza just happened to be targeted by Israel, isn’t it? Most inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/344 "2021-05-18T18:06:56Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Yes, it’s such a pity that some of the free and critical press in Gaza just happened to be targeted by Israel, isn’t it? Most inconvenient The Atlantic article linked earlier raises some serious questions about just how “free” or “critical” that press really is; and I would note that Israel targeted Hamas, not the press. I agree, it IS a pity that Hamas would use buildings occupied by civilians and the press to launch their terrorist attacks into Israel; I believe you will find that doing so is, in fact, a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/345 "2021-05-18T18:09:59Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But you see, those civilian targets are actually human shields. Israel is known to hide military assets in such places, so it’s justified to indiscriminately raze them to the ground. > > That excuse sort of smarts when it’s on the other foot, doesn’t it? This is bullshit. You make a statement with zero factual basis–ie. based on ignorance of the facts. And here at the SDope, we like to fight ignorance, remember?. .So I offer a little suggestion to correct the situation…You are welcome to come visit my house and sleep over tonight. I live on a nice quiet street in the Tel Aviv area,and the flowers are blooming this time year. I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. And if you find anything military near by, let me know, okay? Because there isn’t any. Until then, please stop spreading lies on a website that expects more from its members. * * * note to mods: I apologize for the rude language–but it is intended as a description of the totally ignorant statement in the quoted text, not as a personal attack on the poster. After all, I invited him to come visit me in my home, so he can learn the facts, and fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/346 "2021-05-18T18:31:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I would note that Israel targeted Hamas, not the press. Perhaps you meant ‘Israel _said_ they targeted Hamas, not the press’? > **[RSF asks ICC prosecutor to say whether Israeli airstrikes on media in Gaza...](https://rsf.org/en/rsf-asks-icc-prosecutor-say-whether-israeli-airstrikes-media-gaza-constitute-war-crimes)** > > Reporters Without Borders (RSF) calls on International Criminal Court chief prosecutor Fatou Bensouda to include Israeli air strikes on more than 20 media outlets in the Gaza Strip in her investigation into the situation in the West Bank and Gaza... > Targeted Israeli airforce attacks have **destroyed the premises of 23 Palestinian and international media outlets** in the past week. Sally Buzbee, AP’s executive editor, has stated that they had offices in that building for 15 years, and never saw any signs of Hamas activity. She has also called for an independent investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/347 "2021-05-18T18:37:34Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Sally Buzbee, AP’s executive editor, has stated that they had offices in that building for 15 years, and never saw any signs of Hamas activity. She has also called for an independent investigation. According to the Atlantic article linked above, she’s full of it. But I also welcome a full independent investigation. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/348 "2021-05-18T18:56:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > According to the Atlantic article linked above Let’s assume for the sake of argument that that 2014 article is correct, and the AP is perceived as being biased against Israel. I’m sure that couldn’t possibly have been the reason they decided to destroy their offices. Israel has too much respect for the freedom of the press. No, it could only have been because… Hamas. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/349 "2021-05-18T18:58:06Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Sally Buzbee, AP’s executive editor, has stated that they had offices in that building for 15 years, and never saw any signs of Hamas activity. She has also called for an independent investigation. I call on Sally Buzbee to tell us how she knows who is and is not a terrorist. What are the signs? Is there a secret Hamas handshake? do their wear a special ring on their pinky? Seriously, what signs is she looking for? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/350 "2021-05-18T18:58:47Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > .So I offer a little suggestion to correct the situation…You are welcome to come visit my house and sleep over tonight. I live on a nice quiet street in the Tel Aviv area,and the flowers are blooming this time year. I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. And if you find anything military near by, let me know, okay? Because there isn’t any. > > Until then, please stop spreading lies on a website that expects more from its members. I’ll be happy to do that right after you spend the night in a Gaza apartment building full of women and children with absolutely zero militants in it. How confident are you that the IDF won’t declare it a military asset full of human shields and bomb it into oblivion? That’s my point. You want scrupulous honesty when it comes to rationalizing bombs on your house, but how many lies about “militants” do you automatically take at face value when it’s the other side getting bombed and murdered? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/351 "2021-05-18T19:05:44Z")
I earlier asked you to demonstrate proof of even one of those lies in the current round of fighting and you didn’t respond at all. So you’re the one making claims without evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/352 "2021-05-18T19:05:46Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > That’s my point. You want scrupulous honesty when it comes to rationalizing bombs on your house, but how many lies about “militants” do you automatically take at face value when it’s the other side getting bombed and murdered? It’s the golden rule of war: bomb unto others and you would have them bomb unto you. The difference between this constant back and forth and other wars is Israel has never carried it to a conclusion involving surrender. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/353 "2021-05-18T19:08:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You want scrupulous honesty when it comes to rationalizing bombs on your house, but how many lies about “militants” do you automatically take at face value when it’s the other side getting bombed and murdered? I guess there is the question as to whether Hamas is actually targeting civilians. They could be aiming for military bases, but because Israel has put civilians in between Gaza and their bases, given the short range and poor accuracy of the rockets that Hamas uses, the civilian areas used as buffer zones end up getting hit. So, solution, move the military bases within range of the rockets from Gaza, then Hamas has a legitimate military target to hit. If it continues to shoot at civilians, then you know that that is their intent. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/354 "2021-05-18T19:10:17Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I’m sure that couldn’t possibly have been the reason they decided to destroy their offices. Israel has too much respect for the freedom of the press. No, it could only have been because… Hamas The Israeli press has been publishing statements from the army that the office tower was being used by Hamas for electonic warfare, and that the reason for demolishing it was the equipment inside and on the roof of the building. The only verification we have of this is that US secretary Blinken has stated that he has received secret intelligence info from Israel regarding the tower. He has refused all further comment. So it remains possible that the info is correct, and yes, it WAS due to Hamas, but the information is , as described by the Hebrew press, very highly classified… It also remains possible that the reporters are correct. we wont know until Blinken says something. > **[Blinken: Israel has given us intel on strike on Gaza media tower](https://www.timesofisrael.com/blinken-israel-handed-over-intel-on-strike-on-gaza-media-tower/)** > > Secretary doesn't comment on content of new info on bombing of high-rise used by AP, Al Jazeera, which Israel says was Hamas asset; Israel says classified intel given to Pentagon ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/355 "2021-05-18T19:11:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I earlier asked you to demonstrate proof of even one of those lies in the current round of fighting and you didn’t respond at all. So you’re the one making claims without evidence. Because I wasn’t making a factual assertion, I was demonstrating that some people will believe whatever the IDF says about why they annihilated an apartment building, that all civilian casualties are mere “human shields”, but won’t accept that bullshit for a second when it’s directed at them. Point adequately demonstrated, it appears. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/356 "2021-05-18T19:25:10Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Let’s assume for the sake of argument that that 2014 article is correct, and the AP is perceived as being biased against Israel. That’s not the part of the article I was referring to. I was referring to the part where people were shooting off rockets right outside and reporters who tried to cover that (and that it was endangering them) were silenced. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/357 "2021-05-18T19:28:26Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Because I wasn’t making a factual assertion, I was demonstrating that some people will believe whatever the IDF says about why they annihilated an apartment building, that all civilian casualties are mere “human shields”, but won’t accept that bullshit for a second when it’s directed at them. > > Point adequately demonstrated, it appears. That’s because the IDF provides evidence for their claims, while you do not. It really isn’t that hard. “Some people will believe whatever the CDC says about masks and vaccinations, but won’t accept that bullshit for a second when it comes from Trump” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/358 "2021-05-18T23:20:48Z")
Why build infrastructure that will only be destroyed by Israel? Show me that Hamas’s rocket budget would build a desalination plant. I don’t think so. The rockets seem to be glorified fireworks- in other words, cheap. But maybe the reasoning is that if Gaza had a viable economy they would have money for more and better weaponry. No one has yet seen proof that ANY of the destruction of Gazan infrastructure was justified. Something concerning the press-occupied hi-rise would go a long way toward mollifying me. I’m waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/359 "2021-05-18T23:54:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > According to the Atlantic article linked above, she’s full of it. …Paul Colford from the AP responded to specific allegations in that article. > [@Paul Colford](#): > > \_ The AP published numerous photos and TV footage of rockets being launched from Gaza City. AP’s Josef Federman and Hamza Hendawi collaborated on an investigation into Hamas’ use of civilian areas for rocket launches, comparing maps obtained from Israeli military intelligence to facts on the ground. > > \_ In the early days of the war, armed militants entered the AP’s offices in Gaza to complain about a photo showing the location of a specific rocket launch. The AP immediately contacted Hamas, which insisted the men did not represent the group. The photo was not withdrawn and the men were never heard from again. Subsequent videos similarly showed rocket launches from within the urban area. Such intimidation is common in trouble spots. The AP does not report many interactions with militias, armies, thugs or governments. These incidents are part of the challenge of getting out the news – and generally not themselves news. > > \_ The AP looked into the earlier Al-Quds University incident with the Nazi-like salute and the Jerusalem bureau worked together with the AP’s Boston bureau to produce a story about Brandeis University severing its ties with the Palestinian university over the incident. It bears noting that the Palestinians deny the gesture is meant as a Nazi salute and it is used elsewhere in the region. > > \_ There was no “ban” on using Prof. Gerald Steinberg. He and his NGO Monitor group are cited in at least a half-dozen stories since the 2009 Gaza war. > > \_ The repeated allegation that AP suppressed the story and details of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s offer for a very significant Israeli pullout from the West Bank is also demonstrably false, as AP ran stories about it in the weeks after it was supposedly made. The very notion that a major news operation would put aside a credible scoop on the details to prevent Israel from looking generous is ludicrous. [https://web.archive.org/web/20141204110131/http://www.ap.org/content/press-release/2014/ap-statement-on-mideast-coverage](https://web.archive.org/web/20141204110131/http://www.ap.org/content/press-release/2014/ap-statement-on-mideast-coverage) I think that Friedman is the one that is “full of it” to be honest. There was nothing in that article that calls into question Sally Buzbee has said. And it would be surprising if it did considering it was written many years before the AP building was bombed and years before Buzbee said anything about it. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s because the IDF provides evidence for their claims, while you do not. It really isn’t that hard. The IDF provides evidence of its claims? Really? The official twitter page posts a lot of memes. A lot of propaganda. [https://twitter.com/IDF/with\_replies](https://twitter.com/IDF/with_replies) This is the sort of thing the IDF are posting as proof of “human shields.” > For those that don’t want to click: its a two minute video with rapid cuts of out-of-context clips, dramatic music, animations, but very little in the way of proof. And they are posting stuff like this. [https://twitter.com/bfishbfish/status/1392487736939094021](https://twitter.com/bfishbfish/status/1392487736939094021) For those that don’t want to click, its a twitter user sharing a screenshot of the IDF posting a “before and after” meme of the bombing of an apartment complex in Gaza. (I checked the original page and its real, and the user is verified) And the official Israeli government twitter is not much better, posting stuff like this. > And here they are outright lying about what Bella Hadid said. > All the official channels post is propaganda. All I hear from official spokespeople are talking points. So when you say “the IDF provides evidence for their claims” I really don’t know what it is that you mean. Can you be a bit more specific? Let’s start with the bombing of the building that housed the offices of the AP and Al Jazeera. What evidence have they provided that the building “hosted military assets belonging to the military intelligence of the Hamas terror organisation?” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/360 "2021-05-19T00:10:01Z")
I mean if Israel wanted to specifically kill Gazans there’d be tens of thousands of them dead. The idea that they are using low yield, expensive guided missiles, calling people to evacuate buildings in advance, but secretly want to kill Gazans seems highly illogical to me. I’ve seen what countries just intent on killing lots of people do, it doesn’t look anything like this conflict. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=19)