# Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168 "2021-05-15T16:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/361 "2021-05-19T00:12:13Z")
I would also dispute that Paul Colford debunked the Atlantic article. He certainly made some counter points, neither side has a ton of evidence that I’ve seen, and the Atlantic writer made a lot of claims I notice Colford didn’t address at all. I also think that there’s probably an element of subjectivity in a newsroom deciding on what will be reported, and two people who live in the same newsroom could probably have different experiences and opinions on why things get approved/rejected for publication. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/362 "2021-05-19T00:19:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I mean if Israel wanted to specifically kill Gazans there’d be tens of thousands of them dead. …you appear to be arguing a strawman. I haven’t claimed that “Israel wanted to specifically kill Gazans.” I’m questioning the premise that “the IDF provides evidence for its claims”. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/363 "2021-05-19T00:21:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I mean if Israel wanted to specifically kill Gazans there’d be tens of thousands of them dead. You don’t think that the international community would frown upon Israel doing this? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/364 "2021-05-19T00:43:58Z")
So is this part of the “peace in the middle east” that trump delivered? ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/365 "2021-05-19T00:50:16Z")
That won’t happen for another two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/366 "2021-05-19T00:53:59Z")
I don’t think Israel has ever set out a policy of wholesale slaughter, as they know in advance what kind of pressure that would put on their international allies to condemn them. I do think Israel tends to use ‘terrorism’ and ‘self defense’ as a basis for, shall we say, less discriminant bombing knowing in advance the likelihood of collateral damage is high. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/367 "2021-05-19T01:05:16Z")
**Modhat** : @chappachula & @HMS_Irruncible Please dial this down. This is clearly getting personal now. Some calmness over an impossible situation is called for if you wish to continue posting in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/368 "2021-05-19T01:08:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > …calling people to evacuate buildings in advance… While it might be the case that they gave advance warning before they struck a building that housed journalists working for AP and Al Jazeera, I don’t find it very believable that this is something they do as a general policy. Only when it is specifically useful, since killing member of foreign press agencies is a lot more troublesome then random Palestinians that may not be not any more significant than [dolphins](https://mondoweiss.net/2021/01/israeli-health-minister-likens-his-obligation-to-vaccinate-palestinians-to-taking-care-of-dolphins-in-the-mediterranean/) to the Israeli powers that be. [Here](https://www.democracynow.org/2021/5/18/israeli_airstrikes_gaza_hospitals_clinics) is an account from someone on the ground, a Palestinian doctor (my emphasis): > And we see they destroy buildings during night while people are sleeping in their homes. There is no alarm, as they claim. They claim that “When we are targeting residential buildings, we are sending alarm to the people.” But this is not the truth. This is not the truth. **To be honest all the time, most of the time they are not sending alarms.** It’s interesting that not much has actually been discussed about what provoked Hamas to fire the rockets in the first place. [Here](https://www.democracynow.org/2021/5/18/israel_attack_on_gaza_mustafa_barghouthi) is some additional context from a Palestinian doctor in the West Bank: > [@](#): > > What do we have from other countries today except statements that Israel has the right to defend itself? Defend itself? It is a country that is occupying us. It is the entity that is practicing apartheid against the Palestinian people. You can’t even equate between the two sides. And they are not only doing that, they are favoring Israel, the aggressor. > > … > > The whole thing started because Israel attacked worshipers, peaceful worshipers, who were just praying in the Aqsa Mosque. I was there. I saw them attacking not only the prayer, the worshipers; they even attacked the first providers and beat them. We had 1,000 injuries in Jerusalem because of Israeli army attacks. Six of them have lost their eyes because of the injuries. > > And then, on top of that, they want to ethnically cleanse the Sheikh Jarrah area. I want to explain to you, there are 500 people, several families in Sheikh Jarrah who have been living there since the ’50s. And these families were placed in Sheikh Jarrah because they were ethnically cleansed in 1948 by Israel. These people came from Jaffa, from Ramle, from Lod, from West Jerusalem, because the Israeli army forced them out. And now the army comes to their homes and wants to evict them one more time and ethnically cleanse them. To replace them with whom? With illegal settlers who are supported by the Israeli government. > > This is the worst system of apartheid. This is not only military occupation. This is a combination of occupation, settler colonial system and a system of the worst kind of apartheid that humanity has ever seen, much worse than the apartheid that prevailed in South Africa at one point of time. And this has to stop. This has to stop. I won’t defend Hamas’ use of rockets, but Hamas didn’t just emerge from thin air. Hamas is the perfect scapegoat for Israel to continue doing all the BS it continues to do. If Hamas didn’t exist, Israel (and the US) would have to event it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/369 "2021-05-19T01:33:17Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Why build infrastructure that will only be destroyed by Israel? Show me that Hamas’s rocket budget would build a desalination plant. I don’t think so. The rockets seem to be glorified fireworks- in other words, cheap. [the Qassam rocket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket) 10 kg warhead represent about 14.5 lbs of TNT surrounded by bearings. If that hits you you’re dead and so is everyone around you. It’s not a glorified firework. They cost $800 to make. a [2.5 million gallon per day desalination plant costs $32 million](https://www.twdb.texas.gov/innovativewater/desal/faq.asp) or $12.8 million per million gallons per day. That would be 16 thousand missiles. I’ll leave you to calculate the value of human life into the overall cost advantage of building infrastructure vs building weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/370 "2021-05-19T01:37:30Z")
> [@yarblek](#): > > I won’t defend Hamas’ use of rockets, but Hamas didn’t just emerge from thin air. Hamas is the perfect scapegoat for Israel to continue doing all the BS it continues to do. If Hamas didn’t exist, Israel (and the US) would have to event it. No, Hamas didn’t emerge from thin air. It emerged from years of warring against Israel. If they didn’t exist then the Palestinians would be free to grow as a society. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/371 "2021-05-19T02:31:28Z")
@Magiver It’s quite a lot more complicated than that, as other posters have laid out. It’s better described as a cycle of revenge, which you are happy to keep feeding. Resolved- that Israel is following a strategy of keeping Gaza and Hamas poor so they can’t afford better weapons. Whatever infrastructure is built, it will be rubble in short order. Hamas’s rocket budget gets more bang for the buck spent on rockets than on anything else. We still await any proof that the bombing of infrastructure has been justified. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/372 "2021-05-19T02:31:31Z")
I don’t believe military forces generally provide the sort of evidence you are talking about that “they haven’t committed a war crime.” That isn’t how we determine if a war crime has occurred, you generally would need to have an allegation, investigation, and provide evidence. It isn’t on the military to proactively prove each strike is not a war crime. They release press releases and sometimes high level data, they aren’t going to give you operational stuff until years after the fact, if ever. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/373 "2021-05-19T03:02:20Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > @Magiver It’s quite a lot more complicated than that, as other posters have laid out. It’s better described as a cycle of revenge, which you are happy to keep feeding. Then it’s pretty simple to not operate from civilian locations. the people keeping Palestine poor are the ones using it as a base of operations. > [@Mr.Duality](#): > > We still await any proof that the bombing of infrastructure has been justified. We’re still waiting for any proof that using Palestine as a base of operations has been justified. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/374 "2021-05-19T03:04:28Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t believe military forces generally provide the sort of evidence you are talking about that “they haven’t committed a war crime.” …perhaps you meant to address this with @Babale? Because they were the one who asserted “the IDF provides evidence for their claims”. You seem to be agreeing with me that the IDF **do not** provide evidence for their claims. You would, for example, agree with the assertion that the IDF has not provided evidence that the building that housed the offices of the AP and Al Jazeera hosted military assets belonging to the military intelligence of the Hamas terror organisation. And you would probably agree that they aren’t going to give us this operational stuff until years after the fact, if ever. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/375 "2021-05-19T03:19:41Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The Israeli press has been publishing statements from the army that the office tower was being used by Hamas for electonic warfare, and that the reason for demolishing it was the equipment inside and on the roof of the building. The only verification we have of this is that US secretary Blinken has stated that he has received secret intelligence info from Israel regarding the tower. He has refused all further comment. > So it remains possible that the info is correct, and yes, it WAS due to Hamas, but the information is , as described by the Hebrew press, very highly classified… > It also remains possible that the reporters are correct. > we wont know until Blinken says something. “Electronic warfare” seems a broad term that might just encompass publishing articles that Israel doesn’t like. So I certainly would not give them the benefit of the doubt at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/376 "2021-05-19T03:21:12Z")
And I would argue no military does this, and it is not evidence of any war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/377 "2021-05-19T03:24:09Z")
…I haven’t said anything about war crimes. And the US certainly spent a lot of time making the (bullshit) case that Iraq had WMD before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. They certainly **do** do this. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/378 "2021-05-19T03:32:18Z")
I don’t think you’re saying much of importance at all to be honest. Israel attacks military targets in Gaza, and there’s no evidence otherwise. Gaza is full of war reporters looking to make a name for themselves, if there was clear evidence of Israel just wantonly attacking civilian targets for no reason, it would be everywhere. It’s basically a nothingburger. Saying “well I choose not to believe” is fine, I choose not to care about your opinion on it lol. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/379 "2021-05-19T04:09:17Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Israel attacks military targets in Gaza, and there’s no evidence otherwise. …there is no clear evidence the building that housed the AP also hosted military assets belonging to the military intelligence of the Hamas terror organisation and neither the IDF or the Israeli government seems interested in proving that this is the case. If the IDF are going to claim they have attacked a military target then its over to them to prove they have done so. If they don’t: then why should I believe that they are only attacking military targets? Everything I’ve seen from official channels is propaganda and talking points. It’s the Trump administration on steroids. I have no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Gaza is full of war reporters looking to make a name for themselves, Which reporters are these? Can you be specific? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > if there was clear evidence of Israel just wantonly attacking civilian targets for no reason, it would be everywhere. It’s basically a nothingburger. The bombing of the AP building is clear evidence of Israel just wantonly attacking civilian targets for no apparent reason. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Saying “well I choose not to believe” is fine, I choose not to care about your opinion on it lol. Its kinda like in Great Debates, when you challenge someone to provide a cite to back up their assertions and they respond “nah, it’s okay, LOL.” That is exactly what is happening right now. The IDF are saying “nah, LOL.” ---
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/380 "2021-05-19T08:16:16Z")
Interesting thread with a lot of well-argumented posts. I remember being in a similar discussion on a Dutch forum in 2014, when Israel was bombing Gaza as well. Also in retaliation to rocket launches IIRC, the situation was pretty much the same. What I argued back then, as I will now, is that we see the repeated acting out of collective trauma on both sides. I remember when I was in Israel back in 1995, we drew parallels to South Africa’s Apartheid (to which the South African volunteers in the kibbutz where I was working heartily agreed), and comparing the situation to NI/IRA as well. As long as people have victims to mourn, they will seek revenge. As long as people don’t feel safe, they’ ll try to eliminate perceived threats. There is a very good book I’ve read some time ago by Ha’aretz journalist Nir Baram, called A Land Without Borders. In it, he travels the West Bank and interviews Israeli settlers and Palestinians alike with the question of how are we ever going to solve this. What became rather clear to me is how stuck both sides (really) are in their own narratives. The Palestinians will talk about the Naqba, the Israelis about the Holocaust. Few are able to look beyond that and construct a narrative that provides a way out. And maybe those in power are not inclined to make an effort, because a perceived enemy close at hand helps to keep them in power. Israeli population is by no means homogenous, there’s a lot of ingroup differences, and a tradition of multiparty coalitions which leaves extremists (eg Chas) with a lot of power because they’re needed to form a viable government. Plus, as noted upthread, when rockets are falling or buses blown up (as was custom in the nineties) people tend to get a lot less liberal. It’s worth noting that Israel proper has a large Arab population as well, whom we almost never hear about because they’re not a problem, they are full citizens of Israel. After the Naqba, a group of Palestinians who were driven away held on to their refugee status, refusing to settle elsewhere because then they would lose their claim. In the seventies, PLO leadership was kicked out of Jordan for stirring up trouble among the Palestinian population there and proceeded to do the same in Lebanon, which paved the way for a very nasty civil war in which Israel was also involved. And continued into a low grade conflict with Hezbollah. At least when I was there katyusha missiles were fired from southern Lebanon on a regular basis. IMHO the state of Israel was born from war, and from Europeans who wanted to do right by the Jewish people they let down so badly, preferrably by getting them to live somewhere else. The Palestinians were royally fucked over in the process. And the current population still bears the consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=20)