# Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168 "2021-05-15T16:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/461 "2021-05-20T17:14:27Z")
I’m going to say I don’t believe me and you can have further productive dialogue on the topic, and wish you well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/462 "2021-05-20T17:29:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you think that the IDF is intentionally intimidating journalists to leave so that there are no witnesses on the ground in Gaza? No. Everybody has a cell phone and there are security camera’s all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/463 "2021-05-20T17:34:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, this is very true. And it is the goal of Hamas, a terrorist organization, to continue the violence, to prevent peace from breaking out. > > So, it really is up to Israel, and Israel alone, as to how this all works out. The only course of action to achieve this is to conquer the areas where rockets are launched and establish a zone of stability where the local people can build a free and productive society. Because clearly the Palestinians don’t have the intentions or ability to achieve this. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/464 "2021-05-20T17:40:11Z")
An invasion has never resulted in any kind of stability in the past and I see no reason to believe it would do any better if attempted now. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/465 "2021-05-20T17:47:35Z")
An invasion as you describe would result in dozens or hundreds killed on both sides, in a prolonged and painful insurgency under occupation leading to even more civilian deaths, Israeli soldiers being captured and after years of painful imprisonment exchanged for dozens of Hamas terrorists being released from Israeli custody, and another Intifada. Not to mention will ensure peace is delayed by another generation. Even if Hamas’ behavior would justify such actions, and arguably it already has, it wouldn’t lead to any kind of positive outcome and would be a big step back. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/466 "2021-05-20T17:57:12Z")
Also, I really don’t think that the Palestinians lack the ability to do so, so much as they are ruled by Hamas, a dictatorial government that directly benefits from a lack of prosperity and is quite skilled at propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/467 "2021-05-20T18:17:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > No, Israel can certainly improve its chances of agreement by improving quality of life in Gaza. But it does not have sole power to end the conflict. There are significant “defects of thinking” that have been historically endemic in the Palestinian side for example a large % of them believe right of return is non-negotiable, Israel will fight a war for all time before it ever agrees to a right of return, so it is unlikely unless something changes in the Palestinian mindset for that issue–one of many issues, can be resolved. I mean, yeah, that’s on Israel. I don’t see what is so wrong with right of return. You were kicked out of where you lived by an occupying force. You’d like to go back to where you were kicked out of. That Israel will fight a war for all time before it agrees to let people go back to where they were forcibly removed is pretty much on Israel here. I don’t think that it is a defect of thinking to want back what was taken from you. The UN convention universal human rights, Geneva conventions and at least two UN resolutions also contain this “defect of thinking”. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I do not believe Israel simply refusing to strike back at Hamas when Hamas strikes at them is on the cards. I do not believe even a left of center party in Israel would adhere to that policy, nor could I see any first world democracy adhere to such a policy anywhere on earth. Like I said, Israel should not give Hamas an excuse to attack, but Israel is not going to just take an attack and not respond, that is not a realistic stance to have. Right, strike back at _Hamas_. Not at the civilians who happen to have been imprisoned in Gaza, who have no ability to leave. Do you see what I am saying here? When you say, “simply refusing to strike back at Hamas when Hamas strikes at them”, that’s just a strawman, as I do think that Israel should strike back at Hamas. The problem is that they are not striking Hamas, they are striking civilians. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And there is a difference between being mad about court evictions of Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood and a police raid on Al-Aqsa Mosque, and indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel, rockets that have killed small children who had nothing to do with those evictions or the police raid. I don’t know how that follows. I was pointing out that Israel, and you, are excluding any middle here. They don’t have to respond by killing civilians. Hamas is a terrorist organization. I offer them no defense. OTOH, it the IDF is _not_ a terrorist organization, then they should probably have a defense for their actions. > [@](#): > > Israel is not deliberately killing or targeting children, Hamas is. And yet, they do kill children who had nothing to do with rockets being fired toward Israel. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Some of this has been done in the past for what it is worth, the history of this conflict isn’t only a few months old. One reason Israel has likely gotten more radicalized in recent years is in part because it has backed programs like that before and seen virtually no material improvement in the situation. If there was virtually no improvement in the situation, then they weren’t doing a very good job of it. You have millions of people living in desperate poverty. They are living in that condition _because_ of the actions of Israel. It takes more than a half hearted aid package to overcome that. Once again, Israel taking offense because their ineffective overtures of alleviating the pain that they have cause are not well accepted is a choice of Israel. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I believe your analysis is incorrect militarily. They are hitting Hamas leadership Yeah, but how much good does that do when you also killed that guy’s family, so he’s ready to take up arms against Israel now? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > they are using Iron Dome to shoot rockets out of the sky. Yes, they are, not sure how that relates to them blowing up civilian buildings. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > They are destroying weapons stores. They are attacking rocket launch equipment. Sometimes, but not usually in the civilian buildings that they destroy. By the time they are bombed, Hamas has cleared out with its equipment > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It took Hamas at least 10 years to smuggle in the 30,000 rockets they have, the more that are destroyed the more years it will take to get a similar stockpile back in. Hamas is destroying them right now, firing them into the Iron Dome, landing them in fields. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > What you seem to be fundamentally missing is casualty counts on each side don’t decide what is just or right or proportionate. I’m not missing that. That is specifically what I am saying. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Israel is responding to military attacks on its civilians with military attacks on the enemy’s **military forces** , and those forces are embedded in civilian locations, so there are **civilian collateral casualties** , which are mostly the fault of Hamas. It’s not the fault of the civilians who are killed or left homeless. Is it the fault of Israel that it launches military attacks against Gaza from bases that are out of range of Hamas’s rockets? I’m sure that Hamas would be happy to fire its rockets at military bases, but they are hidden behind civilian areas. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think if you simply disagree that a military has a right to defend its country, and that defense will sometimes cause collateral damage, then we have a fundamental disagreement about the rights and powers of sovereign states and the scope of appropriate military action–such basic disagreements that I doubt we can resolve and frankly it isn’t worth it to try. I don’t simply disagree that a military has a right to defend its country. If after all this, you actually think that is my position, then we are having such a fundamental issue with communication that I doubt we can resolve it, and I don’t know that I care to try. What Israel is doing is utterly ineffective if their goal is to stop the violence. All they are doing is getting vengeance. Vengeance upon people who had nothing to do with it. But, just as a quick hypothetical. You think that using force to defend your home is reasonable, correct? So, do you think that > **[A Texas family hunted for a teen vandal. Instead, they killed an innocent...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/05/20/houston-mistaken-identity-argueta-murder/)** > > Joe Argueta, 19, and his mother, father and uncle are all charged with murder after police say they boxed in a neighbor's car before Argueta shot the man to death in a case of "mistaken identity." These people should be immune to prosecution for murder? They were just protecting their home. Sometimes, that defense will cause collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/468 "2021-05-20T18:21:13Z")
I don’t disagree that some of the actions that the allies took in WWII should be considered war crimes. It’s a tangent that I don’t know we need to go down in this thread, but it fair to point out that that’s another reason why the actions in WWII shouldn’t be used to justify the actions being taken now. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/469 "2021-05-20T18:24:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I was speaking more generally here specifically about complaints about the destruction of civilian buildings used to launch rockets But many of the other civilian buildings destroyed were not used to launch rockets either (I mean even according to the IDF; they are suggesting they were used for storage or other military uses, and often no reason is given at all). In terms of the specific framing you’ve chosen here, I would say that in general\* you are of course entitled to shoot back at someone that’s shooting at you. But the question is, what about all the other times when that justification is not there? \* I say “in general” as of course there are edge cases but they may not be relevant to this conflict. For the sake of simplicity let’s put them to one side and say it’s always justified to shoot back. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “burden of proof lies with the bomber”, burden of proof for **what**? That’s a legal term usually used to refer to proving of cases in court. If you aren’t talking about a war crime scenario what sort of burden of proof do you mean, I ask so I can be clear on what you are actually saying. I think the answer is basically in your question. I’m arguing, as I think most here are, regarding the ethical issues here. To call it a “war crime” means talking about a specific legal definition, and that’s a different (though of course related) discussion. I’m not a lawyer, so can’t really go there. Regarding the burden of proof, I am speaking somewhat rhetorically when I say that the burden of proof lies with the bomber; there is of course no such formal standard. But, the point is, there have been a number of bombings recently that could be for bad reasons (e.g. negative press) and so the international community have asked for evidence of the justification of those bombings. I share such concerns, and hope that such evidence is forthcoming, even if I don’t see it myself. And in the meantime. it’s wholly wrong for some here to imply that I need to prove that those targets _weren’t_ being used by Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/470 "2021-05-20T18:24:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > These people should be immune to prosecution for murder? They were just protecting their home. Sometimes, that defense will cause collateral damage. Not that I disagree with everything you said, but this analogy is flawed for a number of reasons, chief among them that you can and should call the police to handle vandalism on the United States; when Hamas, the authority in Gaza, launches rockets - who do you call to put a stop to it? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/471 "2021-05-20T18:37:24Z")
You are probably right. I’m not sure why you continue to misconstrue my position on the topic, but it does make any discussion pretty much fruitless. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/472 "2021-05-20T18:41:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No. Everybody has a cell phone and there are security camera’s all over the place. Is that the same as journalists? We’ve all seen the pictures and videos of buildings destroyed, people killed and wounded. Doesn’t seem to do much for quite a number of people. > [@Magiver](#): > > The only course of action to achieve this is to conquer the areas where rockets are launched and establish a zone of stability where the local people can build a free and productive society. You mean Gaza? It already is conquered. The occupation is what is leading to these problems. > [@Magiver](#): > > Because clearly the Palestinians don’t have the intentions or ability to achieve this. They certainly don’t have the resources. What with embargoes and destruction of what little they do have. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/473 "2021-05-20T18:56:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > but this analogy is flawed for a number of reasons All analogies are flawed. An analogy without a flaw isn’t an analogy at all, it’s just a description. I’d say that the biggest flaw is that, unlike the vandal, the people in Gaza are forced to be there. It would be like complaining that you locked someone in your garage, and they are damaging it while trying to get out. (Of course, the flaw in _that_ analogy would be that it was originally _their_ garage in the first place.) The other being that there is no authority over Israel either. Meaning that there is no one to charge them for the murder of an innocent bystander. > [@Babale](#): > > chief among them that you can and should call the police to handle vandalism on the United States; I don’t know that they didn’t. The article doesn’t say that they did, but if they had, I’m sure that the police didn’t give them the answer that they wanted. The police are limited in what they can do, and it is likely that they would not be able to put a stop to it. > [@Babale](#): > > when Hamas, the authority in Gaza, launches rockets - who do you call to put a stop to it? I’d say the UN, the international community as a whole, or other Arab nations. But, the point is, people can justify anything in the name of “defense”. Innocent people who have absolutely nothing to do with rockets being shot into Israel are being killed. They are just bystanders, just trying to live their lives as best possible in the conditions that they are forced to live in. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/474 "2021-05-20T18:58:08Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > However heavy onus should be on Israel to do nothing that gives Hamas much of an “excuse” to launch rockets. As long as Israel keeps building the settlements, I don’t think they can really claim the moral high ground. Is it THAT important to them to have those settlements where they are? I don’t like the idea of displacing people, but unfortunately displaced people are just part of the conflict there and it’s not going to go away for the time being. Would it be that hard or politically unfeasible for Israel to settle those people somewhere else, with heavy financial compensation? I suspect that even if Israel ends the settlements, there’s still going to be terrorist attacks against them. Would it be “enough” for them to use the concession of the settlements as a justification for retaliation against further attacks? I really don’t know. I suspect that a lot of the world is still going to criticize Israel no matter what they do or don’t do, but at least in the diplomatic community, the settlements seem like an obstacle to de-escalating the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/475 "2021-05-20T19:10:01Z")
I don’t know if Gaza is super “occupied” right now. This isn’t 1985. Not that there was a shortage of refugee camps back then, but it was easier for ordinary people to come by a living (cf. unemployment rates, lack of border barrier, etc) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/476 "2021-05-20T19:27:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’d say the UN, the international community as a whole, or other Arab nations. I’m pretty sure that would require a UN resolution and the US won’t even allow the UN to issue a “Cease Fire” request. What do you think the chances are that US would vote to allow UN peace keeping troops into Gaza or West Bank. You know Israel would have absolute fits about it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/477 "2021-05-20T19:42:19Z")
An occupation doesn’t have to have troops on the ground. [https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/occupied-territory/](https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/occupied-territory/) > [@](#): > > In international law, a territory is considered “ **occupied** ” when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. I’d say that Gaza falls under the authority of the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/478 "2021-05-20T19:43:23Z")
Right, that’s the whole point. Israel would have fits if they turned the authority over to someone else. They won’t “call the cops”, they want to take care of the problem themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/479 "2021-05-20T19:57:17Z")
Looks like a ceasefire may be imminent, thankfully ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/480 "2021-05-20T20:11:07Z")
Something that I think should be noted is that when you attack another country with bombs, that is an act of war. Retaliatory strikes, targeting military targets, is allowed. They are not **constrained only to the launch sites of the bombs** , i.e. if Syria launches a rocket at Turkey from a specific place, Turkey is not constrained against launching a counter attack against a building believed to be Syrian military intelligence. I’m not familiar with IDF saying it is leveling buildings simply because they want to, but because of similar reasons for Hamas, I’ve seen reports of buildings used by Hamas as command centers, Hamas leadership residences, Hamas weapons depots etc. Just to be clear, when you start a shooting war more than just your gun that you shot the bullet with is a valid target for retaliation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=25)