# Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168 "2021-05-15T16:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/481 "2021-05-20T20:15:20Z")
I’m not arguing, and made many pains to point out over hundreds of the earlier posts in this thread, that **Israel occupies a moral high ground**. I’ve instead attempted to belabor the point that it is a two sided conflict of two parties both with valid interests and valid grievances, and in which both have acted regrettably at times. I do object to Israel being blasted for things that are innately not considered seriously problematic when done by basically any other country. Israel isn’t drone striking random targets 10,000 miles away on fishing expeditions for al Qaeda leaders like the U.S. has spent the last 10 years doing. It is literally launching strikes against a party actively launching strikes against them. Two things can be true at once: 1. That Israel’s military response is entirely in line with reasonable standards of behavior and international law. 2. Israel’s larger strategic and policy approach to the Occupied Territories is fucked up and immoral in many areas. I feel like to some degree @k9bfriender rolled into the thread multiple pages in, ignored the reasoned discussion that had been going on and just started throwing rhetorical grenades at Israel. Given other comments they’ve made I have decided to no longer engage with them, but the tenor, and actual quality of the thread declined dramatically at that point. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/482 "2021-05-20T21:04:24Z")
While I agree with some of that, I’d like to point out that the nation state Israel is effectively waging war on its own citizens (Somehow this is a somewhat asymmetrical war) : Nominally Israel is the “owner” of Gaza. I would propose Israel has a duty to care better for its citizens. Or accept that Gaza is effectively “Palestine” and give them proper independence. Whatever you call what they are doing now is not beneficial to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/483 "2021-05-20T21:14:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Until then, all destroying buildings does is legitimize Hamas in the eyes of the inhabitants of Gaza, as well as create ill will towards Israel from the rest of the world. > > I don’t know what the solution is. It’s complex and will require compromise on all sides, compromises it seems no one is willing to make. What I do know the solution is not is violence, unless Israel is prepared to kill every single person living in Gaza, and we are prepared to sit back and watch. So… are you proposing that Israel do nothing about all those rockets fired from Gaza? Just sit there and accept THEIR civilian deaths without reacting? Why should they tolerate that any more than anyone else would? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/484 "2021-05-20T21:23:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Israel isn’t drone striking random targets 10,000 miles away on fishing expeditions for al Qaeda leaders like the U.S. has spent the last 10 years doing. I’m pretty firmly against that as well. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That Israel’s military response is entirely in line with reasonable standards of behavior and international law. This could be true, and it could also not be true. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Israel’s larger strategic and policy approach to the Occupied Territories is fucked up and immoral in many areas. This is very true. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I feel like to some degree @k9bfriender rolled into the thread multiple pages in, ignored the reasoned discussion that had been going on and just started throwing rhetorical grenades at Israel. Nah, I read through the whole thread, found it interesting, and made some observations when I got caught up. Your calling of them as rhetorical grenades is entirely a product of your own making. You didn’t point to anything in particular, just one of those, “some of these comments” type of remark, that when asked, you couldn’t actually back up. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I have decided to no longer engage with them Calling me out is a form of engagement. You didn’t have to do that, but you did. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > but the tenor, and actual quality of the thread declined dramatically at that point. I disagree. Some of our back and forths have gotten a bit tense, as you continually misconstrued what I was saying in order to fit into your preconceived biases, but I’ve had good quality interactions with many others in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/485 "2021-05-20T21:27:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So… Isn’t there a rule about posts that start with so? That what follows is going to be entirely different from what was said? > [@Broomstick](#): > > are you proposing that Israel do nothing about all those rockets fired from Gaza? Just sit there and accept THEIR civilian deaths without reacting? No and no. That is not what I am proposing. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Why should they tolerate that any more than anyone else would? But the civilians of the Gaza strip are expected to tolerate it? That’s all I’m saying here, is that the civilians of the Gaza strip are the ones who are being punished, who are paying the price for the aggression of others. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/486 "2021-05-20T21:40:05Z")
Israel can and should defend itself from attack. Absolutely. But Israel could better differentiate between a people who require basics, including immunizations - and those who govern badly or benefit from promoting conflict. I do not think they are always one and the same. I support Israel, but do not much like recent provocations, even if the response was excessive. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/487 "2021-05-20T22:00:05Z")
Thing I believe are true: Hamas is indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel without caring about where they land, in fact they likey want to inflict the highest number of casualties possible. Israel is not trying to intentionally target civilians or media organizations with counter-strikes, but they also aren’t losing any sleep over killing any innocent Palestinians in the process. There are major powers on both sides that deep in their hearts think total annihilation of the other is the only realistic eventual outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/488 "2021-05-20T22:22:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Something that I think should be noted is that when you attack another country with bombs, that is an act of war. Retaliatory strikes, targeting military targets, is allowed. They are not **constrained only to the launch sites of the bombs** , i.e. if Syria launches a rocket at Turkey from a specific place, Turkey is not constrained against launching a counter attack against a building believed to be Syrian military intelligence. I’m not familiar with IDF saying it is leveling buildings simply because they want to, but because of similar reasons for Hamas, I’ve seen reports of buildings used by Hamas as command centers, Hamas leadership residences, Hamas weapons depots etc. Just to be clear, when you start a shooting war more than just your gun that you shot the bullet with is a valid target for retaliation. This argument only works if you’re saying that Gaza as a whole is at war with Israel. Is that what you’re saying? And if not, who is the “you” you are referring to? Also, this: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Something that I think should be noted is that when you attack another country with bombs, that is an act of war. Retaliatory strikes, targeting military targets, is allowed. They are not **constrained only to the launch sites of the bombs** , …works as a perfect justification for the Hamas attacks against Israel as well. Did you mean to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/489 "2021-05-20T22:37:40Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > As an aside, the recent carnage has shown how weak and impotent the US is in terms of being a factor in this dispute. The only hand it has to play, it seems, is to totally withdraw support for Israel, and that is a political nonstarter domestically. Why should the US be involved in this dispute at all? It’s halfway round the world from the US. Well, yes, Israel is supposed to be our alley, but it’s still not our fight. Although US support for Israel is why Israel has things like the Iron Dome, so withdrawing US support is a serious hitch to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/490 "2021-05-20T22:39:49Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Isn’t there a rule about posts that start with so? That what follows is going to be entirely different from what was said? Not to my knowledge. If I am incorrect I 'm sure a mod will be along to correct me on that. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > But the civilians of the Gaza strip are expected to tolerate it? > > That’s all I’m saying here, is that the civilians of the Gaza strip are the ones who are being punished, who are paying the price for the aggression of others. And yet, there are rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel. You can’t claim that there are no aggressive parties in Gaza, because clearly there are. I agree that none of this is fair to the civilians on either side. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/491 "2021-05-20T22:52:41Z")
The big issue is that isn’t really true, Gaza has its own civil government and military, and that military actively fights against Israel. Israel is not recognized by any international body as the owner of Gaza, and most Gazans reject the principle as well. There is a major effort underway to build popular support for the idea that the Israeli occupation is apartheid. This is, I suspect, because supporters of Palestine have had virtually zero success rallying much real support for Palestine in the West despite multiple efforts. Mayhap they hope, because South African apartheid was the target of a significant international campaign arrayed against it, they some day can use such a pressure campaign to force Israel to grant the Palestinians various things they want. I’m not even entirely opposed to the conception that in some respects the fact that the occupation appears to be open ended, does create a sort of guardianship responsibility with Israel vis-a-vis the Palestinians. Where I think it breaks down a lot though, is if Gaza was just Israel, then Hamas would be a rebel army in a civil war. That’s actually a **much easier** problem for Israel to solve. In a civil war you are entitled to go in with ground forces and basically suppress the rebels with overwhelming force, and begin to forcefully pacify the populace–pacify in this case means impose regulations and procedures on them designed to bring their behavior in compliance with Israeli law. This would be akin to the Russian suppression of Chechnya’s rebellion, as a comparison. Where it breaks down is while the interminable occupation creates some of the same negatives of apartheid, the actual reality that these are not Israeli citizens, they have their own military force, most of them are opposed to being part of Israel, and the international community would not approve of Israel treating Gaza as part of Israel. So in very important material ways, thus the two situations are dissimilar, and likewise Israel cannot do the sort of things with rebellious citizens because there are different international norms in place for a military occupation. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/492 "2021-05-20T23:00:48Z")
I believe in the ordinary sense of what a war is, yes, Gaza was at war with Israel. We acknowledge for example that the United States was at war with Iraq in 2003, despite heavy opposition from many liberal Democrats, including major anti-War rallies. Gaza is governed by Hamas, and Hamas is at war with Israel. Ergo yes, I do think Gaza has been in a perpetual state of war with Israel for many years. > [@Gyrate](#): > > …works as a perfect justification for the Hamas attacks against Israel as well. Did you mean to do that? Did you mean to intentionally misrepresent my post? Let me bold the **entire salient passage, not just the section you cherry picked** : > **Retaliatory strikes, targeting military targets, is allowed. They are not constrained only to the launch sites of the bombs** So if it is your assertion Hamas was firing at military targets, then yes under the laws of war they are justified. Is there any particular evidence you have to suggest that is true? Or, as has been widely reported, is Hamas just firing indiscriminately at the civilian population of Israel? If it is the latter, then no, Hamas’ strikes are not justified by Israel attacking Hamas military infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/493 "2021-05-20T23:08:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Why should the US be involved in this dispute at all? It’s halfway round the world from the US. Well, yes, Israel is supposed to be our alley, but it’s still not our fight. So are Iraq and Afghanistan. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Although US support for Israel is why Israel has things like the Iron Dome, so withdrawing US support is a serious hitch to Israel. As another poster recently said: > [@Broomstick](#): > > Why should the US be involved in this dispute at all? It’s halfway round the world from the US. Well, yes, Israel is supposed to be our alley, but it’s still not our fight. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Not to my knowledge. If I am incorrect I 'm sure a mod will be along to correct me on that. Not a rule that is to be modded, but a rule that seems to get followed quite often, as you did. Altho, it _was_ a mod that came up with it. > [@Broomstick](#): > > And yet, there are rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel. You can’t claim that there are no aggressive parties in Gaza, because clearly there are. I do not claim that there are not aggressive parties in Gaza. There clearly are. I am, however, saying that the ones paying the highest price here are not the aggressive parties. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I agree that none of this is fair to the civilians on either side. Sure, but it’s far less fair to one side than the other. Give Gaza an Iron Dome, then maybe it’s a bit more fair. Then maybe some resources to rebuild, electricity more than a couple of hours a day, fresh water. You may even let them leave and try to make it somewhere else in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/494 "2021-05-21T00:19:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Is that the same as journalists? better. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > They certainly don’t have the resources. What with embargoes and destruction of what little they do have. Look at pictures of Berlin in 1945 and compare it to what it looks like today. There wasn’t any negotiation involved. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/495 "2021-05-21T00:30:46Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It’s not always obvious where the burden of proof lies. Yes, it is always obvious. It’s with the person making the claim. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/496 "2021-05-21T00:40:42Z")
It matters if it becomes a regional flare-up with pan-Arabism becoming a thing again, which I don’t see happening at the moment, fortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/497 "2021-05-21T00:56:47Z")
Has this ever been suggested? If some Jewish residents of Israel proper wish to build settlements in Gaza, then let them with the provision that they will be subject to the government of Gaza, not Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/498 "2021-05-21T01:11:08Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Yes, it is always obvious [where the burden of proof lies]. It’s with the person making the claim. What a strange thing to pick up on from so much earlier in the thread. In context, it was clearly the set up for a rhetorical point. Nevertheless, while you’re asking, no I don’t think in practice it’s always obvious. In a real debate, it can take a bit of examination to determine what facts are not even in dispute, and then what explicit and implicit claims are being made by either or both sides. So while, clearly, it’s always possible to determine where the burden of proof lies, it is not _always obvious_ ; sometimes it takes a bit of work to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/499 "2021-05-21T01:36:00Z")
I support this development. > **[Israel-Palestinian Conflict: Israel and Hamas Begin Cease-Fire in Gaza...](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/05/20/world/israel-palestine-gaza)** > > The truce came into effect on Friday morning in the Middle East, after days of fighting that claimed hundreds of lives. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/500 "2021-05-21T01:46:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If some Jewish residents of Israel proper wish to build settlements in Gaza, then let them with the provision that they will be subject to the government of Gaza, not Israel. AFAIK Israel doesn’t have settlements in Gaza. As for the West Bank, a solution like this would either be possible through a negotiation or would just be the default absent any political protection given to settlers if the Israeli government had the goal of opposing settlements. The reason it doesn’t happen is that the Israeli government supports settlements and the occupation. As Mitch Hedberg once said “I got a good idea for sweatshops - air conditioning!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=26)