# Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168 "2021-05-15T16:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/141 "2021-05-16T14:01:51Z")
I think I agree with this, but this still doesn’t eliminate the moral obligation of the Israeli government. Of course, Palestinian leadership also has their own moral obligations. But the party with the much greater power and wealth always has extra obligation, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/142 "2021-05-16T14:07:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > A significant portion of Palestinians **do not want** the equivalent of this, many of them advocate for the removal of Jews “from the river to the Sea”, and do not view any Jewish presence there as appropriate but as invaders/colonizers. That isn’t _actually_ markedly different from [South Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Settler,_One_Bullet)…a not-insignificant number of Blacks do not view any White presence as legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/143 "2021-05-16T15:10:52Z")
Let’s say I agreed with the rhetoric that any violence committed by the IDF or Israel police is “retaliation” or “self-defence” and any violence committed by Hamas or Palestinian civilians is just raw “aggression”. So, not Israel’s fault, and it’s not the IDF’s fault if they bomb civilian buildings or refugee camps either as Hamas was probably sheltering there. Let’s go with that. But…what’s the justification for the settlement-building? How is expanding territory and evicting Palestinians something that poor Israel, acting in good faith and hoping for peace, is forced to do? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/144 "2021-05-16T15:20:51Z")
Just a question for the ‘Israel shouldn’t hold back, total war is the only solution’ position. So, Hamas rocketing civilians was the right tactic all along, correct? Or does only the side you like get to use those tactics? ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/145 "2021-05-16T15:21:04Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The continued settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes as well as kicking Palestinians out of their homes generally have the effect that the negotiations would need to start with a smaller and smaller, less developed, less contiguous area of land on the Palestinian side. So yes, after slowly making a Palestinian state less and less practical Israel is open to negotiate for a 2-state solution, but I don’t really think this counts personally. Sounds like you’re talking about the West Bank. It’s not true that Israel has never been willing to give up the West Bank in exchange for peace. It’s not true that the Palestinians have ever been willing to accept the West Bank in exchange for peace. The closest the two sides ever got to an agreement was at the 2000 Camp David Summit. The Israelis offered 92 percent of the West Bank (and 100 percent of Gaza). The Palestinian side wanted 100 percent of the West Bank and Gaza. But they weren’t satisfied with that; they also demanded that all Palestinians have the right to return to Israel proper. The Israeli side signaled they were open to accepting _some_ Palestinians in Israel proper. That was not enough for the Palestinian side. Here is the most telling detail: The Palestinian side “walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer.” [Wikipedia - 2000 Camp David Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/146 "2021-05-16T15:25:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But…what’s the justification for the settlement-building? How is expanding territory and evicting Palestinians something that poor Israel, acting in good faith and hoping for peace, is forced to do? The justification is that this is territory that was won in a defensive war. Jordan and Egypt (among other countries) launched a war to wipe Israel of the map; they lost this war, and lost territory; when making peace with those countries, Israel gave back much of the land it took; anything remaining is Israel’s by right of the peace treaties they signed after winning a defensive war. That all might be true, but the land isn’t a net benefit to Israel, because it comes with millions of people who hate it and want to see it gone, and they’re not going anywhere. That’s why I disagree with the settlements - even if Israel “deserves” to win what it took when it was attacked, this isn’t a question of right/wrong/‘deserve’ but one of practicality. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/147 "2021-05-16T15:36:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The justification is that this is territory that was won in a defensive war No it isn’t. Unless you’re saying all of the palestinian territories should have been ceded to Israel following the war, this does not make sense at all as a justification for continued expansion and settlement building. > [@Babale](#): > > even if Israel “deserves” to win what it took when it was attacked, this isn’t a question of right/wrong/‘deserve’ but one of practicality. The reason I brought it up is because there’s a pretty strong contingent on the Dope, and of course generally in US and Israeli politics, that defend everything Israel does with a victimhood rhetoric, and whataboutHamas. Pointing out that there is no victim-based justification for the settlement-building helps to pierce through this BS. Not to say that Hamas does not deserve condemnation. But no, the actions of the Israeli government is not solely as victims just searching for peace. In terms of practicality, I don’t care. Whether it’s practical or not, it shouldn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/148 "2021-05-16T15:47:04Z")
Here’s some news: > **[Islamic nations slam Israel — and each other's ties to it](https://apnews.com/article/world-news-israel-europe-middle-east-summits-7add3e4ddb4d52cc704acde8dcb1a650)** > > A league of Muslim nations has demanded Israel halt attacks killing Palestinian civilians amid heavy fighting between it and Hamas in the Gaza Strip. > [@](#): > > A statement by the 57-nation Organization of Islamic Cooperation hewed closely to previous ones issued by the Saudi-based group, including backing the decades-old call for Palestinians to have their own nation with East Jerusalem as its capital. > > However, recent normalization deals between Israel and some nations in the group — as well as their own concerns about Hamas — saw diplomats at points instead criticize each other. > [@](#): > > But the videoconference meeting saw some delegates instead turn their fire toward countries like Bahrain, Morocco, Sudan and the United Arab Emirates, Muslim nations which reached normalization deals last year to recognize Israel. While Egypt and Jordan earlier reached peace deals, supporters of the Palestinians criticized the new countries for recognizing Israel before the formation of an independent Palestinian state. > > Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu joined Zarif in criticizing the normalization, though Israel maintains diplomatic ties with Ankara. > > “There are a few who have lost their moral compass and voiced support for Israel,” he said. “If there are half-hearted statements within our own family, how could we criticize others? Who will take our words seriously?” That all sounded like genuine, valid diplomatic concerns; then there was this: > [@](#): > > Zarif also accused Israel of “genocide and crimes against humanity.” > > “Make no mistake: Israel only understand the language of resistance and the people of Palestine are fully entitled to their right to defend themselves,” I’m somewhat dubious as to the value of such remarks in helping to resolve this current crisis. I did like the closing of the article: > [@](#): > > Hussein Ibish, a senior scholar at the Washington-based Arab Gulf States Institute, said most Gulf Arab leaders fear Hamas’ rocket fire as “cynical, dangerous, unnecessarily provocative and endangering Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza alike.” That takes the pressure off those Gulf leaders to respond, unlike in other confrontations involving the Al-Aqsa Mosque or when Israeli settlers force Arab families out of their homes, he said. > > “There won’t be much sympathy for what is widely viewed in the Gulf as Israel’s heavy-handed and disproportionate retaliation,” Ibish wrote, “but it will be much easier for Gulf leaders and many citizens to regard the exchange as a tragic conflagration at the expense of ordinary people brought about by two leaderships over which they have neither control nor responsibility.” ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/149 "2021-05-16T15:58:46Z")
Not only is a one state solution (with equal citizenship rights and obligations for the entire populace irrespective of ethnicity / religion) not welcomed by hardliners on both sides who can act in innumerable manners to spoil peace (political and violent action), there are non-hardliners who would have problems with it too. 1. A one state solution would destroy Israel as we know it. This kinda needs to be said. It takes a very optimistic population to voluntary OPT for a revolutionary restructuring of their nation-state. (I could be wrong but) I don’t think Israel is ANYWHERE near the breaking points that revolutionary France/USA or 1990’s South Africa were. Any one state solution needs an Israeli buy-in (with the ante being their current semi-malfunctioning state). An entirely different country is a gamble that is difficult to sell. I’d like to see someone make that pitch, but it’d need to be a dynamite one. 1. As you point out, such a plan would require the wholesale annexation of the West Bank / Gaza and a significant portion of the Palestinians would not want this. For this to be acceptable, a culture of pragmatism and the gaining of real political agency would be required. Its easy for Palestinians to be skeptical of the Israeli state when that state does not currently recognize them, act in their interest, nor gain its legitimacy from the Palestinian people. However if a new Israeli state did all of this, Palestinians would view it like Israeli Arabs do (theoretically). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/150 "2021-05-16T16:04:05Z")
Here’s some more news: > **[Israeli warplanes stage more heavy strikes across Gaza City](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-israel-israel-palestinian-conflict-7bba1abb8a7bd0aadc2e796275ecb469)** > > Israeli warplanes have staged another series of heavy airstrikes in Gaza City hours after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu signaled the fourth war with Gaza’s Hamas rulers would rage on. > [@](#): > > In a televised address, Netanyahu said Sunday evening the attacks were continuing at “full-force” and will “take time.“ Israel “wants to levy a heavy price” from the Hamas militant group, he said, flanked by his defense minister and political rival, Benny Gantz, in a show of unity. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/151 "2021-05-16T16:07:09Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > You’re just making up shit now, aren’t you? Moderating: Don’t be a jerk. He said it was a pure guess. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/152 "2021-05-16T16:08:18Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > It’s not true that Israel has never been willing to give up the West Bank in exchange for peace. > > It’s not true that the Palestinians have ever been willing to accept the West Bank in exchange for peace. There are two separate things: One is what the two sides have negotiated when they’ve sat down for (extremely occasional) talks. The other is actions they’ve taken outside those talks. Actions like building settlements and kick Palestinians off of their land inherently make an agreement like that tougher even on a logistical level. As far as talks go, the closest anyone came to an agreement was the Oslo Accords. The agreement was already shaky at best at the outset, but it became clear almost immediately that both sides either lacked the ability or the will to enforce commitments on their own side. I don’t think either side actually thinks a peace agreement aimed at a 2-state is possible which is why they don’t do anything in practice to try to lessen the barriers for that to be able to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/153 "2021-05-16T16:13:27Z")
> [@Dropo](#): > > I think it’s more than clear no one in the leadership of Hamas or Israel wants peace as it would mean giving up their maximalist demands and would prove an impossible sell to their own people. That Largely true, except that voices for peace among influential Israeli leaders are drowned out by prevailing right-wing politicians, while every time Hamas indiscriminately shoots off a bunch of rockets it strengthens Netanyahu et al. As long as the “leadership” of Hamas and Israel maintain power they’ll remain uninterested in a lasting peace that leaves both sides unsatisfied. Massive infrastructure and development aid from Arab nations to Gaza sounds like a great idea, but given corruption and the priorities of Palestinian leaders, much of it probably would be diverted to the pockets of said leaders or to production of more rockets, not to mention the likelihood that industries created by such aid would also host rocket-launching facilities to be knocked down later on by Israeli bombs, recapitulating the Cycle of Stupid.\* \*speaking of which (minimal hijack follows): the renewed Gaza-Israel conflict has claimed another victim - the New Jersey Nets’ playoff hopes. Kyrie Irving, whose attention has notoriously wandered from basketball for various reasons, doesn’t even want to talk about the playoffs now because he’s upset about events in the Middle East. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/154 "2021-05-16T16:16:01Z")
I don’t disagree at all, I think I even mentioned in one of my posts I don’t think a one state solution is viable in my lifetime or probably the lifetime of anyone who is an adult right now. I simply have shifted to a viewpoint that it is probably the only **possible long term solution** , because the two state solution simply is no longer in the realm of possible options. There’s a lot of Palestinian activists I’ve seen make pretty compelling arguments along these lines, and they want more Palestinians on board with them. I think the long term goal is to basically paint Israel as being the same as Apartheid South Africa–a country for which a two state solution was never really an option either. The myth of the two state solution actually empowers Israeli hardliners because they can brush back on many claims of apartheid by simply saying “it isn’t apartheid, Palestine is a separate country, that we have militarily occupied **because of winning the 1967 war in which they attacked us, and any time we try to dial back they attack us more**.” I’m not saying either the 1967 war or the current situation is as simple as that, I’m simply stating the strategy the Israeli hardliners use. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/155 "2021-05-16T16:19:00Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > Here is the most telling detail: The Palestinian side “walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer.” > > [Wikipedia - 2000 Camp David Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit) Your own cite gives another side of the story: > **[2000 Camp David Summit | Accusations of Israeli and American responsibility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Accusations_of_Israeli_and_American_responsibility)** > > Robert Malley, part of the Clinton administration and present at the summit, wrote to dispel three "myths" regarding the summit's failure. First myth, Malley says, was "Camp David was an ideal test of Mr. Arafat's intentions". Malley recalls that Arafat didn't think that Israeli and Palestinian diplomats had sufficiently narrowed issues in preparation for the summit and that the Summit happened at a "low point" in the relations between Arafat and Barak. The second myth was "Israel's offer met Cla... NB: > Shlomo Ben-Ami, then Israel’s Minister of Foreign Relations who participated in the talks… stated on Democracy Now! that "Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/156 "2021-05-16T16:27:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > A significant portion of Palestinians **do not want** the equivalent of this, many of them advocate for the removal of Jews “from the river to the Sea”, and do not view any Jewish presence there as appropriate but as invaders/colonizers. > > That isn’t _actually_ markedly different from [South Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Settler,_One_Bullet)…a not-insignificant number of Blacks do not view any White presence as legitimate. I wasn’t aware of that, but it isn’t terribly surprising. For what it’s worth I do somewhat view white presence in South Africa as markedly different from Jewish presence in Israel. White South Africaners really are almost exclusively the descendants of colonizers (I know there has been later migration after the establishment of the white South African ruled state of whites from Europe etc, in smaller numbers), who had no real reason or right to live there other than “because we have the power to settle here.” Now, as an American that also describes **my entire country** so I fully understand that reality too, but I likewise wouldn’t be really surprised to find a Native American having views similar to a black South African–that our presence is not legitimate. In some sense the only difference is the ratio of white Americans to indigenous is far different from black:white in South Africa, and white North Americans moved here in far greater total numbers. The reason I view Israel differently is that I view the states of Israel and Palestine as successor states of the Ottoman Empire. Within the Ottoman Empire there were many ethnic and religious groups–including Jews, who had been a relatively protected minority under Ottoman rule for as long as the Ottomans existed. Jews were always a small minority in the OE, but they were always present–interestingly many Sephardi Jews fled to the Ottoman Empire after they were expelled from Iberia. Now, the actual Jewish population of Ottoman Palestine, pre-Zionism, was quite low, but when the British Mandate was coming to an end and states were being carved out of former Ottoman territory, there were serious pogroms and other things directed at Middle Eastern Jews across the region, many fled to Zionist settlements in Mandatory Palestine to join with the collected Jewish population there. I do not view it is as intrinsically inappropriate that one of the Ottoman Empire’s historic minorities, at a time when they were being made refugees across the former OE, deserve a carved out land for themselves. The British objected to the 1947 line largely because the Jews were given, in their perspective, far too much and far too high quality land relative to their population, versus the Arab population. That is probably not an invalid viewpoint, another major issue with the 1947 lines was they created two states with indefensible borders all but guaranteed to lead directly to further conflict. I think the very simplistic view that all Jews in Palestine are colonizers is a simplification that shouldn’t be repeated so frequently by the left. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/157 "2021-05-16T16:35:06Z")
Camp David is controversial but I think the core issue was actually that Arafat _could not make a deal_, the leadership of the Palestinians has never been a very sure thing. One of the fundamental issues with the two sides is that the Palestinians are so disorganized and dysfunctional that there has never been a representative they can put forth for negotiations who actually meaningfully represents most of the Palestinians. Arafat was probably the closet they have gotten to such a person and even he was quite limited. The core issue for Arafat is he understood there were very large segments of the Palestinian population that are intimately wedded to the “Palestinian” maximalist claims, specifically: 1. The 1947 borders 2. A legal right of return and property rights for any Palestinian who held land in present day Israel prior to 1948. A lot of Palestinians **also** want all Jews expelled from the country as some ultimate goal as well, but those above two points are non-negotiable for many Palestinians. They also simply will never be granted. So any Palestinian leader who goes to negotiate with Israel has to have first found a way to reshape Palestinian public opinion, to get acceptance of abandoning those maximalist goals. Arafat could have agreed to the deal offered at Camp David, and he likely would have been assassinated or at the very least significantly seen a reduction in his influence and power. The agreement would have meant nothing because Hamas and other groups would continued to fight Israel because they wouldn’t support a deal along the Camp David lines, and Israel isn’t going to implement a deal while being attacked. A lot of ardent pro-Palestinians call the Camp David deal a bad deal for Palestine, but I do actually fundamentally disagree with that position. You could build a workable state from that deal, you can **never build one** from position of wanting the 1947 borders and right of return, because the only way Israel will ever give those things is if you can find an army to defeat its army and force them to do so. Camp David is likely the best deal Palestine was ever going to get, that doesn’t mean it was a fair deal or a perfect deal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/158 "2021-05-16T17:04:10Z")
Killing more Palestinians (unless you kill all of them) doesn’t make Israelis safer. The more Palestinians you kill, the more intense desire for revenge becomes. Better to keep it to a minimum. For @Babale The more lopsided a fight is, the fewer options the weaker side has. I don’t approve of using civilians as shields, but it becomes more understandable. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/159 "2021-05-16T17:11:44Z")
Military Q: what is the nature of these Palestinian rockets, anyway? Could they (at least as a potential threat) be guided onto interesting targets like military HQ, air/sea ports/shipping infrastructure, water/power plants, factories, refineries, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168/160 "2021-05-16T17:18:32Z")
Which led to the end of World Wars. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-gaza-2021-wtf/942168.md?page=9)