# Israel vs Hezbollah...who won? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901 "2006-08-16T02:01:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/121 "2006-08-18T05:58:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Same old horseshit about Israel’s ‘unprovoked attack’ I see. I think he meant Hezbollah’s attack was unprovoked (which I guess means he’s either unaware of the events on May 28, or believes, like I do, that something fishy was going on with the discovery of the "spy ring) But don’t worry, that bit may not be equine feces, but I have an idea what might be… [QUOTE=pantom] As for stupidly arguing they ever had a chance against Hizbullah, here’s a neat one from [The War Nerd.](http://www.exile.ru/2006-August-11/a_hezbollah_upon_all_of_thee.html) [/QUOTE] Interesting pantom, let’s see what pantom has to say about that. [ > [@](#): > > Lebanese lives are worth as much as Israeli lives. Simple proposition. Saving them from deaths like these is also real real easy, if you’re actually interested in going after your enemy rather than engage in collective punishment of a peaceful people. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7597863&postcount=57](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7597863&postcount=57)) Fascinating debate. I wonder what pantom will say about pantom’s claims that one could have saved Lebanon’s wider populace by “going after” Hezbollah? What will pantom say about pantom’s contention that saying Israel should go after Hezbollah was a stupid argument? Will pantom take pantom to task for “stupidly arguing” that the correct course of action was to “go after” Hezbollah, since evidently pantom believes that it was an impossiblity? Why does pantom believe that pantom suggested something that he believes to be false? Why does pantom think that pantom argued a position which he didn’t agree with? Hmmmm… > [@pantom](#): > > The last opportunity to “win” against Hizbullah was on July 12, when they not only shot themselves in the foot, they blew the whole thing off by their initial unprovoked attack. Probably three-quarters of Lebanon were against them at that point. And all the unprovoked Hezbollah attacks between now and six years ago, including those on May 28, which would be just a few days before July 12… what impact did those have on forcing that 75% of Lebanon to take action? Or the attacks and kidnappings in october of 2000 that led to Israeli overflights resuming? Or any other times that Hezbollah broke ceasfires or periods of calm? Was Lebanon requesting UN reinforcements on May 29th? Or did the government of Lebanon, perhaps, claim to have broken an “Israeli spy ring”, ‘validating’ Hezbollah claim to justified attacks on Israel? Hezbollah’s opposition claimed the entire ‘spy ring’ was manufactured and invented by Hezbollah, obtained via a government known to use torture, and that it strains belief to say that in two weeks they caught a dangerous ring of spies, who had documents directly linking them to Mosad, those careless spies who use business cards or some such, (:dubious: ) but that the ‘proof’ was never released and that Rafik Hariri’s killers have never been found? And that Hussein Khattab, a Palestinian and a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine -General Command was also one of these “spies”? Lebanon did nothing at all substantive all those other times when Hezbollah attacked with provocation, and may indeed have helped Hezbollah fabricate justification after the May 28th attacks. In addition, elements in the Lebanese government and Defense Ministry have continued support for Hezbollah and helped get weapons to them ever after Hezbollah had continued to break ceasefires and periods of calm… but this time, pantom assures us, it would’ve been different. Pantom also ignores that much of the animosity towards Hezbollah at the start of the war was not for the simple act of attacking Israel, but because they had called down reprisals on them, and those they sheltered among/the infrastructure which allowed weapons to be trucked in to theml, in the process. Will we see, next week, pantom arguing that people have “stupidly argued” that Hezbollah would have been dealt with by the rest of Lebanon if only Israel hadn’t responded? I wait with bated breath. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/122 "2006-08-18T06:43:32Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Can you think of another plan that would have ended the rocket attacks? [/QUOTE] Irrelevant, since the attacks and the response were so disproportionate. If a Mexico-based gang kills a few Americans ( I’m sure some do ), should America level a good chunk of Mexico ? Killing your enemies is one thing; making them stronger and killing plenty of innocents in the process is another. Besides, it’s the cease fire not the Israeli attack that stopped the rockets; the people killed in Lebanon were effectively killed to no other effect than to serve as a propaganda tool fo Hezbollah, with Israel doing it’s own enemy’s dirty work. And it’s _still_ terrorism, whether it worked or not. If Hebollah’s terrorism somehow managed to destroy Israel, would that make it OK ? Or is it only Israeli or American terrorism that is excusable ? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/123 "2006-08-18T10:13:40Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] But of course the targets in Lebanon were not restricted to military targets. The general infrastructure of the country was hit very heavily. Ostensibly this was to hurt Hezbollah’s logistics, but in actuality it will cripple the entire country economically while Hezbollah’s logistics will adapt. The damage to infrastructure hurts even the parts of Lebanon that hate and despise Hezbollah just as much as Israel does. Attacking one of the very few groups in the region that actually share some common interests with Israel just doesn’t seem very smart to me. [/QUOTE] 75% of Lebanon was virtually untouched. The airport was taken out, and roads into Syria (odd that, after the roads to Syria were taken out taxi drivers were charging $1,000 to drive to the Syrian border) An oil refinery was targeted, resulting in a massive oil slick, but the damage to North Lebanon was trivial. The biggest fuss was about Israel bombing two trucks parked in an upmarket residential area - they had water drills on them, which probably looked like Scuds. The South Lebanese infrastructure was thoroughly shattered, yet there were only around 1,200 deaths - 800,000 refugees were in Beirut proper. Incidentally we only have Hezbollah’s word for 1,200 deaths, and they have every incentive to do a bit of double counting. If one looks at it, the actual proportion of the S. Lebanese population that were killed is astonishingly low, less than half the number who died on 9/11. From everything I have heard on the BBC World Service (radio), North Lebanon was business as usual throughout. The Israelis conducted a surgical operation. Possibly your news media are mis-reporting what really happened, the BBC is usually extremely reliable, if they told lies then they would lose all credibility and would not be worth running, they are a sort of ‘propaganda service’ - a counter propaganda operation. Regardless, look at the numbers. For the carnage in the South, 1,200 must make anyone wonder how such a low bodycount was acheived. True, Hezbollah is still alive and kicking, but it is living in a toilet which will take years to rebuild - they may still have their guns and rockets, but those are not much use. No electricity, raw sewage in the streets, telecommunications and water supply taken out. Incidentally this morning, on the radio, I heard an interview with a very chirpy young woman from Oxfam. It seems that they are sending aid for water and sewage to S. Lebanon, and that S. Lebanon has very strong NGOs. Well there is only one NGO that I can think of in S. Lebanon - in plain English, Oxfam are about to give money to Hezbollah - Kafka-esque ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/124 "2006-08-18T14:23:05Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] I think he meant Hezbollah’s attack was unprovoked (which I guess means he’s either unaware of the events on May 28, or believes, like I do, that something fishy was going on with the discovery of the "spy ring) [/QUOTE] :smack: I didn’t actually absorb the ‘July 12’ part. Thats what I get for posting when I’m more than half asleep. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/125 "2006-08-18T15:04:27Z")
CNN and internet stories point out that Hezbollah is actively assisting the rebuilding of Lebanon. They are also providing finacial aid. Yep ,they clearly lost. Unless the real battle is for hearts and minds. Like it or not .the Lebanese will blame Israel for the damage and deaths. The devil made me do it wont float. Active on the ground assistance will win the day. So just like Iraq . power use results in a larger insurgency and more enemies. Oh when will we ever learn. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/126 "2006-08-18T16:09:38Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] CNN and internet stories point out that Hezbollah is actively assisting the rebuilding of Lebanon. They are also providing finacial aid. Yep ,they clearly lost. Unless the real battle is for hearts and minds. Like it or not .the Lebanese will blame Israel for the damage and deaths. The devil made me do it wont float. Active on the ground assistance will win the day. So just like Iraq . power use results in a larger insurgency and more enemies. Oh when will we ever learn. [/QUOTE] It is annoying that Hezbollah and Hamas are actually rather competent - if they had clear and non-suicidal objectives they would be a force for good (well the good of their populations) The S. Lebanese would blame the Israelis for a blocked plug, who cares. Perhaps one or two might wonder why they are still alive, but if they are that smart they will correctly assume that it was down to CNN or Fox News. In Lebanon, 25% of the population are ‘insurgent’, and the other 75% are heaving a sigh of relief that the slightly mad 25% have got out of their car parks. The last month has changed nothing, except that 1,000,000 people are now living in a toilet. I have a strong suspicion that if there are any more Katyusha attacks, it would be 900,000 - next time no leaflets ? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/127 "2006-08-18T18:08:54Z")
Give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling wouldn’t it. ? I think we all know that the great majority of the civilians are just trying to get by. One day at a time. In my humble opinion, this war provided little for Israel. Why would another one get a new result? Serious negotiations, thats what I want. With the US involved. But not Bolton. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/128 "2006-08-18T19:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] The S. Lebanese would blame the Israelis for a blocked plug, who cares. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that happens when you bomb people, and make it clear that you _don’t_ care. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/129 "2006-08-18T19:43:54Z")
[http://www.iht.com/bin/print\_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/08/04/opinion/edshlaim.php](http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/08/04/opinion/edshlaim.php) Another opinion to completely and totally reject. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/130 "2006-08-18T21:02:07Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] If a Mexico-based gang kills a few Americans ( I’m sure some do ), should America level a good chunk of Mexico ? [/QUOTE] Not _ **AGAIN** _ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/131 "2006-08-18T21:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] [http://www.iht.com/bin/print\_ipub.p...on/edshlaim.php](http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.p...on/edshlaim.php) Another opinion to completely and totally reject. [/QUOTE] Before I once again point out that you have posted yet another drive by link, why don’t you detail why you think its important and quote some of the relevant points in your cite for discussion? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/132 "2006-08-18T21:43:05Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Yeah, that happens when you bomb people, and make it clear that you don’t care. [/QUOTE] You know something? You are absolutely right here. THATS probably why the Israeli’s don’t give a shit about either the Lebanese OR the Palestinians! Damn…thats pretty astute of you. I’m surprised… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/133 "2006-08-18T22:05:07Z")
Speaking O drive by links, I’ve been reading around in the [Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/) today, and they seem quite **unhappy** with the conduct and results of this little invasion. Here’s a few articles and opinions to give the flavor: [Soldiers unhappy with war handling](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525901891&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) > [@](#): > > Soldiers returning from the war in Lebanon say the army was poorly prepared, slow to rescue injured comrades and suffered from a lack of supplies so dire that soldiers had to drink water from the canteens of dead enemies. > > “We fought for nothing. We cleared houses that will be reoccupied (by Lebanese Hizbullah guerrillas) in no time,” said Ilia Marshak, a 22-year-old infantryman who spent a week inside Lebanon. [Why go to war if you don’t intend to fight?](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525886888&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull) > [@](#): > > This is galling to have to admit. But with the war officially over, it is retroactively clear that the Europeans were right about one thing. They were right for all the wrong reasons, but they were right nevertheless: Israel’s response was disproportionate. [Editor’s Notes: Vital lessons from a ‘premature’ war](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525897217&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) > [@](#): > > Israel’s long-term security does not rest solely on its ability to protect itself on the battlefield, however. It depends also on our ability to articulate to the international community why the military measures we take are essential, justified and worthy of support, and it hinges, too, on the consequent alliances and partnerships we forge diplomatically to ensure concerted international action against shared enemies of freedom. > > In part because of Israeli failures, and in part because of international foolishness, hypocrisy, misconceptions of self-interest and more, all of these sovereign foundations are shaking now. [Fight for the peace](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525881004&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) > [@](#): > > Yet whether the war was a defeat for Israel depends not just on the war itself, but on who wins the peace. If we - the US, Europe and Israel - give up on the aftermath, defeat is a certainty. But why should we give up? > > The other side is certainly losing no time in fighting to shape the peace. On Tuesday, Nasrallah announced that Hizbullah would not disarm, and Assad openly defended the Islamist organization, claiming, “The resistance is necessary as much as it is natural and legitimate.” Israel is decidely **not** a happy, victorious nation right now. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/134 "2006-08-18T22:10:48Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Israel is decidely not a happy, victorious nation right now. [/QUOTE] And IMHO they have a right to be unhappy too. As I said in the OP, I think the entire campaign was poorly thought out and definitely poorly executed. Their goals were nebulous and seemed to shift. They were seriously unprepared for the actual fighting (contrary to those who think Israel planned the whole thing every thing I’VE read indicates an almost startled response). And on the political front its just about as bad, as the political leadership also seems to have lacked a clear vision of just what the hell they were supposed to be doing in Lebanon. As I said above, I am definitely a supporter of Israel…but I think that, unfortunately, they fucked up on this one. I don’t believe that invading Lebanon or going after Hezbollah was the wrong thing to do…I think they went about it in the wrong way. And I fear that they will pay for this fuckup for years to come… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/135 "2006-08-18T22:22:32Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] You know something? You are absolutely right here. THATS probably why the Israeli’s don’t give a shit about either the Lebanese OR the Palestinians! Damn…thats pretty astute of you. I’m surprised… -XT [/QUOTE] Your sarcasm is wasted on someone who despises both sides. I’m not a supporter of anyone there but the innocents caught in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/136 "2006-08-18T22:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Your sarcasm is wasted on someone who despises both sides. I’m not a supporter of anyone there but the innocents caught in the middle. [/QUOTE] You know, I could almost believe you and while I might disagree with a pacifist’s stance I could respect it. However, you have repeatedly said words to the effect that the ONLY thing that matters to you is civilian deaths in Lebanon. No circumstances other than that are in play…in your own mind. I’ve yet to hear your similar rage that the ONLY (other) thing that matters to you is the innocent civilian deaths in Israel. Funny that…no? I remain, unfortunately, unconvinced. My conclusion? My sarcasm was well spent. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/137 "2006-08-19T00:03:00Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] You know, I could almost believe you and while I might disagree with a pacifist’s stance I could respect it. [/quote] I’m not a pacifist. [QUOTE=xtisme] However, you have repeatedly said words to the effect that the ONLY thing that matters to you is civilian deaths in Lebanon. No circumstances other than that are in play…in your own mind. I’ve yet to hear your similar rage that the ONLY (other) thing that matters to you is the innocent civilian deaths in Israel. [/quote] Because they are so few compared to the deaths in Lebanon, and inflicted by the side the people I’m arguing against _agree_ with. Do I need to convince you that the deaths of innocent Israelis are bad ? No ? I thought not. ---
**Author:** ![Caparazon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b782af/32.png) [@Caparazon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caparazon)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/138 "2006-08-19T00:30:03Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] No… the claim was that Israel, the state of Israel, did something. I Irgun and the Stern Gang weren’t the state of Irael. One of the incidents you cite was before 1948. The other involves the Stern Gang, which was officially disolved by Israel in May of 1948. Swing and a miss. [/QUOTE] I totally agree. You can’t blame the state of israel for what a terrorist organazation did. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/139 "2006-08-19T00:57:13Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Before I once again point out that you have posted yet another drive by link, why don’t you detail why you think its important and quote some of the relevant points in your cite for discussion? -XT [/QUOTE] I appologize. however I believe iwe have been debating this topic and all it;s permutations for over 30 days. In my humble estimation almost all of it is relevant. When I posted I expected this, But damnit we have coverered a lot of ground, so quit crying and read the damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901/140 "2006-08-19T00:59:32Z")
Dont read it forget it. It won’t matter anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-vs-hezbollah-who-won/368901.md?page=8)