# Israel: When the best of the best say NO **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608 "2003-12-23T05:35:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/1 "2003-12-23T05:35:39Z")
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/3339785.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3339785.stm) So, some reservists said they would not be part of a “rule of oppression”. These are soldiers from the _Sayeret Matkal_ commando unit. The same unit that carried off Entebbe and other headline actions. So when these type of soldiers have a problem as others have, as in the 25 pilots who refused to carry out bombing raids on Palestinians. What does Israel do? Do they sack and possibly prosecute these guys and keep on going the way they’re are going or do they take what they are saying into account and change how they are acting? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/2 "2003-12-23T05:38:03Z")
opps forgot ro quote from the link > [@](#): > > Several hundred reserve soldiers have been sent to prison for refusing to serve in the West Bank and Gaza, but the statements from pilots and commandos carry special weight because of their elite status. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/3 "2003-12-23T07:24:19Z")
Short answer? Both It is still considered unacceptable to refuse military orders. They **will** be punished (probably by a slap on the wrist, though possibly a few days in jail), and then most likely released from reserve duties. Either that, or public repentence in the very best of Soviet fashions. But the message does carry some public-relations weight. Another brick in the wall, so to speak. I’m giving this as my opinion on **the process at work** , not on the actual act of refusal, on which my opinion is mixed and complex, and you didn’t ask - so I’ll pass. Dani ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/4 "2003-12-23T08:20:27Z")
They _have_ to be punished. I’m not one to see slippery slopes everywhere I look, but in this case, it’s unavoidable - what if tomorrow, a group of right-wing reservists announces that it will refuse to evacuate settlements? Can we take what they’re saying into account? As private citizens, they’re welcome to express their opinion, but exploiting their military status to do so is tacky, to say the least, and refusing to serve their democratically elected government is a _crime_. And yet, as Dani said, it’s par of a process. The government may condemn it, but they’ll listen to it (especially when you consider that several cabinet members - including the Ministers of Defense and Treasury - are former _Matkalists_). They’re a feeling around here that withdrawal is imminent, and people are starting to react accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/5 "2003-12-23T11:12:07Z")
Sack Sharon I say… I agree with the comments that soldiers refusing orders is dangerous. They can protest not refuse though. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/6 "2003-12-23T14:56:00Z")
Didn’t a general and some former heads of Israeli intelligence service speak out against the aggressive policies? ---
**Author:** ![YourOldBuddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/bc79bd/32.png) [@YourOldBuddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourOldBuddy)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/7 "2003-12-23T14:59:25Z")
Its sort of refreshing and gives me new hope for the human race to find decency in the middle of the cestpool of human indignity called Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/8 "2003-12-23T15:17:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by YourOldBuddy \* > \*\*Its sort of refreshing and gives me new hope for the human race to find decency in the middle of the cestpool of human indignity called Israel. \*\* Gee, thanks. I wish I could say something equaly nice about _your_ country, but who gives a shit about Iceland? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/9 "2003-12-23T15:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by YourOldBuddy \* > \*\*Its sort of refreshing and gives me new hope for the human race to find decency in the middle of the cestpool of human indignity called Israel. \*\* Thank you for derailing a serious discussion of public opinion affecting politics and _v.v_ in favor of an uncalled for drive-by attack… Dani ---
**Author:** ![YourOldBuddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/bc79bd/32.png) [@YourOldBuddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourOldBuddy)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/10 "2003-12-23T15:30:21Z")
At least they are doing something about it. I was commenting on how hard it must be when the whole country is against them, both the Palestinian and Isreali public, to stand out and demand peace. Friends of mine lived in Isreal and I dont think I used very strong words. No western country is in the same league as Isreal where inhumanity is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![YourOldBuddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/bc79bd/32.png) [@YourOldBuddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourOldBuddy)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/11 "2003-12-23T15:36:44Z")
Im sorry. I was out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/12 "2003-12-23T15:40:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by YourOldBuddy \* > \*\*At least they are doing something about it. I was commenting on how hard it must be when the whole country is against them, both the Palestinian and Isreali public, to stand out and demand peace. > \*\* Oh, poppycock. Israel has a _huge_ peace camp, and the hardest thing these guys did was decide who gets to call the press conference. The Israeli public opposes them not because they’re against us being in the Territories - that’s practically the majority opinion - but because the way they did it was a direct assault upon our democratic institutions. > [@](#): > > \*\*friends of mine lived in Isreal and I dont think I used very strong words. No western country is in the same league as Isreal where inhumanity is concerned. \*\* Can I have an exemption to Godwin’s Law? Please? Just this once? Pal, Israel could slice the throat of every single palestinian under the age of four and it _still_ wouldn’t approach the inhumanity of western countries. I’m sorry about your friend, but they really have no idea what they’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/13 "2003-12-23T15:43:11Z")
That was a bit over the top, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/14 "2003-12-23T15:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > The Israeli public opposes them not because they’re against us being in the Territories - that’s practically the majority opinion - but because the way they did it was a direct assault upon our democratic institutions. What alternative did they have? Doesn’t doing what’s right have to come before following orders. And since you already Godwinized the thread…wasn’t following orders an excuse used by Nazi executioners? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/15 "2003-12-23T16:14:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*What alternative did they have? Doesn’t doing what’s right have to come before following orders. > > And since you already Godwinized the thread…wasn’t following orders an excuse used by Nazi executioners? \*\* But whee do you draw the line? If you let every soldier do what he or she thinks is right, the military cannot function, because everyone’s line between right and wrong lies somewhere else. The IDF has very strict Illegal Order law, but they’re very narrowly defined - they _have_ to be narrowly defined in order to work - and they only apply to very specifc, unambiguous order. Now, these soldiers were not given a direct order to, say, blow up a Palestinian schoolbus. If they had, there would be no public debate on the matter of they’re refusal, beyord what should be done to those who gave the order in the first place. They were opposing a very general order, the political implcations of which they disagreed with. Maybe, some day, they - or I, considering the fact that I still do reserve duty - will reach the point where doing the right thing is more important than obeying the law, just like the Nazi soldiers did somewhere around 1940 (not that orders given by dictators are i]ever\* legal, but that’s another story). We aren’t there yet. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/16 "2003-12-23T20:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > DtC said… > What alternative did they have? Doesn’t doing what’s right have to come before following orders. Doing what is “right” during war is very murky, and usually illegal. One assumes personal risk when doing what is right. That’s why it is so hard to do the right thing. Refusing orders will, in civilized countries, cause you to end up in prison. These commandos are _willing to go to prison_ rather than serve in the settlements (Why are we calling them the Territories now? Or is that a different region?). To me, that’s a stronger statement than just, say, dropping out of the army, or whining to the media. I’m proud of them, just as I am of any consciencious objector in the US, and the feller from my school who planted bleach on airplanes. I hope their time in jail is brief, but I do believe sacrifice serves is better than rhetoric, I think the consequences improve their message. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/17 "2003-12-23T21:13:15Z")
Forget about the “following orders” bit, OK? The IDF has a rule which says that a soldier **MUST** (repeat, **MUST** ) disobey an “_Clearly and obviously illegal order_” (my translation of the term). Soldiers have been found guilty of **following** “clearly and obviously illegal orders” in the past. Soldiers have been praised for refusing these orders. So skip the Godwin part, will ya, guys? These reservists didn’t say “we won’t follow orders to beat up innocent children”. They don’t have to - if such an order were given, very few Israeli soldiers would follow it (those who would enjoy it anyway - there are bad apples everywhere :(). As **Alessan** noted, the only question they would be asked would be “who gave you that order?”. They didn’t even say they would refuse to impose a curfew they thought was for nuisance value rather than real military ends. No - they said they would refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories at all. That is **way** over the line - there is no way you will convince me that an order _to report for duty_ in the OT is illegal. And yes, this is the army, not a civilian setting. Rules about obeying orders in the army are necessarily strict. If anything, the IDF is far more **lax** than any army I have ever heard of in this respect - sometimes for better (more room for improvisation), sometimes for worse (when improvisation becomes the rule rather than the exception). But that’s a whole new thread… Dani ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/18 "2003-12-25T12:20:22Z")
\*\*Friends of mine lived in Isreal and I dont think I used very strong words. No western country is in the same league as Isreal where inhumanity is concerned. \*\* Well, I guess if you want to conveniently place Israel in the West, that applies. Place Israel in the Third World though, and they are the beacon of light in a dark, oppressive world. And last time I checked, that’s the neighborhood they are living in. It’s all well and good to preach good manners and trust when you live in Beverly Hills, but when you live in a really bad neighborhood you have to act like you don’t take crap from anyone. If Israel acted like Belgium, they would have ceased to exist long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/19 "2003-12-25T12:44:38Z")
You really put the Third World down now… Israel is no beacon of “light” for the 3rd world… maybe just maybe the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608/20 "2003-12-26T11:36:42Z")
I stand by that assertion. Few Third World countries have a better human rights record than Israel. Although I will concede that most of them are in Latin America, so I could see why you’d take exception. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israel-when-the-best-of-the-best-say-no/220608.md?page=2)