# Israeli assistance for the Iraq occupation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695 "2003-11-22T16:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/1 "2003-11-22T16:32:18Z")
Some excerpts from an article in the [LA Times](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-usisrael22nov22,1,7715171.story?coll=la-home-headlines) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — Facing a bloody insurgency by guerrillas who label it an “occupier,” the U.S. military has quietly turned to an ally experienced with occupation and uprisings: Israel. > > In the last six months, U.S. Army commanders, Pentagon officials and military trainers have sought advice from Israeli intelligence and security officials on everything from how to set up roadblocks to the best way to bomb suspected guerrilla hide-outs in an urban area. > … > > Many of the tactics recently adopted by the U.S. in Iraq — increased use of airpower, aerial surveillance by unmanned aircraft of suspected sites, increased use of pinpoint search and seizure operations, the leveling of buildings used by suspected insurgents — bear striking similarities to those regularly employed by Israel. > … > Now, in frequent meetings with their American counterparts, Israeli army officials share ideas on how to protect soldiers from attacks and booby traps, Israeli officials said. > > U.S. military officials also have reviewed a common Israeli tactic of conducting house-by-house searches for armed fighters by knocking down interior walls with a portable battering ram. The tactic eliminates the need to pass through doors and windows — one of the most dangerous aspects of urban combat, because of possible booby traps. > > In the last week, U.S. soldiers began leveling houses and buildings used by suspected guerrillas, a tactic long employed by the Israeli military in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, where they use bulldozers to knock down the homes of militants or their families. > > “The Americans learned a lot from the Israelis’ use of them [bulldozers] in urban combat,” a former Israeli official said. “Israelis learned that if you have fighting in an urban area, you just take down the house.” > > This spring, U.S. soldiers, anticipating that they could be fighting on the streets of Iraqi cities, traveled to Israel to train in a mock Arab town that the Israeli army uses to simulate the urban battlefields of the West Bank and Gaza, U.S. and Israeli officials said. > … > “It used to be that generals and admirals would come by in almost state-like visits,” said Ben-David, who in his consulting works with Israeli and U.S. officials. “But the relationship is such that you now get line-type soldiers coming here to meet with their counterparts.” Yes, the Israeli military has tremendous experience in this kind of situation. But IMO the goals of their occupation (permanently occupying territory) are different from ours (“exporting democracy”). Even some of the Israelis quoted in the articles sound ambivalent about it. I feel this is another tone-deaf Pentagon move that will make us look worse than necessary, and it will feed into all the idiotic Elders of Zion-type conspiracy theories. Is Israel’s approach one to emulate? Will these tactics make things safer for the troops in Iraq? How big a PR problem will this be in the Muslim world? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/2 "2003-11-22T16:40:26Z")
Why would the US not want to copy Israeli tactics. Afterall, you can’t argue with their record of unmitigated success in pacifying occupied territory. [/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/3 "2003-11-22T16:46:31Z")
> [@](#): > > “After all,” one Israeli official said, “we’ve made plenty of mistakes ourselves.” -op. cit. It’s big of them to admit it… ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/4 "2003-11-22T17:47:04Z")
It is debatable whether the Israeli goal is permanent occupation. Certainly the current Israeli government has not set a long-term direction, but I think popular and world opinion and previous actions state that the eventual goal is turnover to the Palestinians. Their current, more short-term goal is to root out insurgents in order to protect Israeli interests. In this respect, it is strikingly similar to US short-term goals in Iraq. I have considered starting a thread about how Iraq is starting to look more and more like the West Bank, with the dilemma that increased resistance only has led to (and will lead to) a more severe and longer occupation. Reading this just confirms my suspicions… ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/5 "2003-11-22T18:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avenger \* > \*\*Why would the US not want to copy Israeli tactics. Afterall, you can’t argue with their record of unmitigated success in pacifying occupied territory. [/sarcasm] \*\* Given the percentage of attempted terrorist attacks they manage to stop, one might not wish to be so sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/6 "2003-11-22T18:23:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 'possum stalker \* > \*\*-op. cit. > > It’s big of them to admit it… \*\* I think that was meant as sarcasm, but it’s actually true. Learning from your mistakes by first acknowledging them is the sign of a democratic system where people are allowed to hold different views. Unlike the OT, where collaboration can get you strung up post haste. There is no US equivalent to Zionism partly driving US policy in Iraq either – unless democracy (I’ll settle for something close, albeit not Jeffersonian enough for me, to get our troops home) and a functioning economy is a religion. Generally speaking, the Iraqis will hear a story like this and go crazy with conspiracy theories. Israel is the ultimate issue where seemingly everyone knows everything, often based on next to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/7 "2003-11-22T18:56:22Z")
“Given the percentage of attempted terrorist attacks they manage to stop, one might not wish to be so sarcastic.” And why have there been so many attempted attacks for such a sustained period? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the Israelis have crippled the Palestinian economy, destoryed their civic institutions and killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians. I think the US can pick some useful tactical tips from Israel but the main lesson is learning what **not** to do. The last thing the US wants is to convert the Sunni triangle into a bigger version of the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/8 "2003-11-22T19:07:45Z")
The elements that the US seems to be borrowing from the Israeli playbook are tactical/operational in nature. You can make statements about the tactics themselves, but you must mete them from the strategy and how they are employed in order to make fair assessments about them. For instance, take the “battering the wall down rather than go through the booby-trapped door” tactic. It seems like a reasonable solution to an operational problem and can be assessed independently of the fairness/appropriateness of its execution. The more important question is, “On what basis do we use this tactic?” “What constitutes adequate intelligence/cause for using such a tactic?” IMO, whoever can’t tell the difference between what we’re learning vs. who we’re learning it from, probably lacks the capacity for rational argument anyway and relegates anything we do to the “those damned infidels!” pile. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/9 "2003-11-22T20:26:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > \*\*Given the percentage of attempted terrorist attacks they manage to stop, one might not wish to be so sarcastic. \*\* One would have thought that the American ideal in Iraq would be to arrive at a point where there would be no terrorist attacks. One suspects that they do not wish to be in a situation where they are in Iraq for decades, continuously being forced to try to contain attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/10 "2003-11-23T00:28:01Z")
The US military was trained by Israel in such tactics before the invasion started. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/11 "2003-11-23T02:27:52Z")
Cite?? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/12 "2003-11-23T03:05:23Z")
**Alde** doesn’t do cites. Didn’t you know? ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/13 "2003-11-23T03:57:22Z")
Judging by **Alde** ’s reaction, I guess this story will be small news to the Israel conspiracy crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/14 "2003-11-23T04:31:50Z")
Well one does wonder why the US took SO LONG to get this kind of training… As for the tactics themselves they work great in urban areas and in counter insurgency operations. Except the leveling houses… those are done more as punishments vs specific palestinians IMHO. They have little to do with “fighting”. If the US emulates that… hhmm… it could go wrong in keeping the “goodwill” of the Iraqi subjects. ``` Another lesson of course they could learn is how years and years of Israeli control have done little to diminish terrorism. That militarily you can dominate... but not win. ``` ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/15 "2003-11-23T05:58:35Z")
WEll, if you are willing to use Syrian or Iraqi tactics you can win. If the Israelis or US completely destroyed a city and killed all of its inhabitants that would probably take care of any insurgency. Not that I think they should. Just pointing out that you can win if you are brutal enough. Democracies are ill-suited to guerilla warfare because of the constraints they operate under. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/16 "2003-11-23T21:13:44Z")
Oh I’m so sorry… I didn’t give a “cite” besides my post. I’m so sorry, don’t have any other “cite” in English but if US’ers had followed closely their own media they would be informed about their reports on this. Maybe if they had stopped for a while the flag waving and the rejoicing over bombs dropping on innocent people and had taken a few minutes to inform themselves it would be no news to them now. Oh, almost forgot: I don’t think though that it was brought on FantasyOX or CeeNothingNews. There are also reports of the US buldozering/bombing homes giving inhabitants 5 minutes (and yes, you read that well, that is FIVE minutes) to leave their home before it is flattened. Yes… it is an invasion with the humanitary aim to free the Iraqis while winning their hearts and minds. They were invaded and bombed into oblivion, they are freed of their land, their lives, their relatives, their limbs, their homes. What else does one need to be free in a democratic nation US style? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/17 "2003-11-23T21:21:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **Maybe if they had stopped for a while the flag waving and the rejoicing over bombs dropping on innocent people and had taken a few minutes to inform themselves it would be no news to them now.** Cite for Americans **rejoicing** over bombs dropping on innocent people? Never mind the Palestinians who publicly rejoiced on 9/11. P.S. The use of the term US’ers is offensive to some people. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/18 "2003-11-23T21:29:11Z")
OK then, oh enlightened Belgian, give us a link to show us the truth. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/19 "2003-11-23T22:15:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Cite for Americans **rejoicing** over bombs dropping on innocent people? > \*\* Shame on you. There is plenty of jingoism on each side of every conflict. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695/20 "2003-11-23T22:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\*Shame on you. > There is plenty of jingoism on each side of every conflict. \*\* Say there is. Cite, please? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-assistance-for-the-iraq-occupation/214695.md?page=2)