# Israeli Rocket Attacks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2000, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750 "2000-10-13T02:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/41 "2000-10-15T00:46:21Z")
I thought I would post some links because I realize people can call my info into question as I don’t work for a major news organization. I will link to a few articles by people who can write better than me but represent my viewpoints, who do work for major news organizations. Here is a good op-ed which represents the Israeli viewpoint, IMHO. Quite empassioned. From the Washington Post, Oct 6, by Charles Krauthammer. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21390-2000Oct6.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21390-2000Oct6.html) Here is another good article which IMHO represents the view of the Israeli left. Again, Washington Post, Oct 11, Lee Hockstader. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45823-2000Oct10.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45823-2000Oct10.html) Here is a good op-ed from today’s Jerusalem Post about what to expect from the Israeli side at Monday’s summit at Sharm-el-Sheikh. [http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/10/15/Opinion/Editorial.13727.html](http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/10/15/Opinion/Editorial.13727.html) ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/42 "2000-10-15T01:44:47Z")
Igllady said: > [@](#): > > Palestine will settle for nothing less than the complete obliteration of Israel. If Israel gave them the whole of Jerusalem, it wouldn’t be enough. This is certainly true of some Palestinians, though it is also certainly _not_ true of others. (This becomes a problem when you speak of “Palestine” as if it had a will of its own.) A number of years back, on the old FidoNet POLITICS conference, there was a Palestinian who argued with a number of other people about the Middle East (the name he went by was Ghazy Kader). At one point, I asked him point-blank if statehood for the Palestinians was enough, or if he wanted Israel erased from the map. He refused to give me a straight answer. I at least give him credit for honesty (he could have simply said it was the first and nobody would have known differently), but by avoiding the question several times over, I think the answer was fairly clear. Statehood was simply not enough for him. > [@](#): > > Israel has a perfect right to defend itself. It has a right to exist as a nation. It has a right to keep land it won in a war (especially when that land was vital to its national defense). Palestine, on the other hand, deserves to be obliterated for their terrorist activities. Here comes that question about “Palestine” again. Do you mean the land, or the people? If the land, what happens to the people? If the people, are you really advocating wiping out everybody because of some terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/43 "2000-10-15T01:54:52Z")
Igllady, go away. This thread was doing just fine without you. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/44 "2000-10-15T02:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > The image of the shrine still haunts the violence, and the efforts to end it. On Saturday in Hebron, funeral-goers had a pointed reminder for their leader: ``Arafat, we are ready to fight and to redeem Al Aqsa with our blood,’’ they chanted. The above is from the latest AP report on AOL. I suppose they need to redeem it from the outrageousness of a Jew walking on Jewish holy land. Truly beyond belief. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/45 "2000-10-15T05:04:57Z")
This thread seems to have evolved somewhat (as they are wont to do), and seems to have lost view of the OP a bit. I’m not defending terrorism or rioting, and I think nobody here is. If someone is throwing stones and Molotov cocktails at you, I would expect you to shoot back (sure, it’s not a good thing, but you have little choice). But \* rocket attacks on non-military targets? \* They rocketed a TV station. Sure it may be broadcasting inflammatory things, but then again so is Radio Free Cuba, and how many of us would put up with Castro bombing it? Granted, there are limits to freedom of speech a la Olliver Wendel Holmes (this is, of course, assuming we extend our domestic principles abroad anyway). However, this seems rather excessive and repressive. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/46 "2000-10-15T12:35:05Z")
If a radio station is telling people to take aggressive action against the state, is that not at least in part a military role? In other words, did the station _make_ themselves a military target? As I recall, we bombed Milosovec’s radio and TV stations at least once or twice. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/47 "2000-10-15T13:35:27Z")
you know, i really don’t fucking give a shit. a jewish homeland? i don’t care. palestinian independence? who cares. these idiots in the middle east can rock each other to death, and i don’t fucking care. there is no jewish god, and there is no palestinian allah. all i know is that i like having sex and making 100k/year. seriously… clinton should just ignore the fucking insanity which is the middle east. have a full-on war and kill each other over dumb crap, i don’t care. have at it. go cards, ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/48 "2000-10-15T15:12:49Z")
Thank you for your insightful commentary. I’m sure we will all sit back and mull over your opinions in great detail for the rest of the day. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/49 "2000-10-15T15:57:52Z")
\>\> you know, i really don’t fucking give a shit So why did you post? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/50 "2000-10-15T16:25:21Z")
ALright, after reading over the responses and shadowing through quite a few posts, yes, I tend to agree that Israel, if not totally justified, was probably not unprecedented in choosing its targets; however, I still think that it would have done itself a great service by not calling the attacks “revenge”. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/51 "2000-10-15T16:32:08Z")
To you and I, it may look bad to call it revenge. But for them, it is making a point: You attack us, and we _will_ get revenge. Besides, everybody knew what it was, so why lie about it? ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/52 "2000-10-15T16:42:13Z")
I think you have a legitimate right to take out a radio station if said radio station was repeatedly, uncritically broadcasting a sermon of a Gaza imam who called for “true believers to kill Jews, wherever they may be found.” Keep it mind it was broadcasting to people who also perhaps aren’t thinking quite rationally. The radio station in serving to rile up a crowd for Jewish blood, becomes as much of a military target as anything is nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/53 "2000-10-15T17:03:31Z")
So I ask again, suppose Cuba were to have some riots going on, would anybody here be ok with Castro bombing a few targets in Florida (Radio Free Cuba included) because the Cuban exiles there were inciting anti-government riots? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/54 "2000-10-15T19:50:41Z")
Would I have a problem with it? Hell, yes! But then, we’re not in a state of war with Cuba, are we? The Israelis have been in a de facto state of war with the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/55 "2000-10-15T22:20:31Z")
I agree with **David B**. Let’s say the radio station was causing a state of mob mentality in Florida by which Americans were crossing over into Cuba to throw Molotov cocktails at government installations. The mob, on insistence from the radio station, took 2 Cuban soldiers and brutally beat them to death and then mutilated them. Yes, I would feel that Cuba would have every right to take out the radio station. Yes, the US would probably consider it an act of war. But I think the radio station would have had it coming to them… ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/56 "2000-10-16T06:00:18Z")
Well then, at least you’re consistent–which I can respect more, even if I disagree with you… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/57 "2000-10-16T14:50:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > > > [@](#): > > > > That’s nonsense, bullshit and propaganda. It doesn’t amount to anything. It was not one in millions in what we can do if we are really in war > > This, in particular, really annoyed me. Because you could inflict more damage triviallizes what’s already been done? > The United States could have done a heck of a lot more to Iraq, should we have chosen to. That doesn’t make the Gulf War not a war (albeit a very lopsided one). > > To me, using rockets is the sort of action that seems like it would be a declaration of war anywhere else; why should Israel be excepted from this? So who are they declaring war on? If Arafat and his cabinet can’t control their people and stop them from rioting - which seems to be much of their excuse - then they cannot legitimately claim to represent the government of Palestine, and in point of fact Palestine would therefore not be any sort of government or state. You can’t declare war on another country unless it’s actually a country. Israel, and in fact the world, has gone to some length to grant Arafat and the Palestinians a measure of pseudo-state status; that’s why they have police forces and governmental structures. If it’s now the case that they’re incapable mof actually running the territory they’re responsible for, that status is a complete sham. You cannot claim to be a government if you don’t have any influence over the people you claim to represent. If Arafat isn’t running Palestine, then Israel is running Palestine. And you can’t declare war on yourself. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/58 "2000-10-16T15:11:10Z")
**John Corrado** sayeth: > [@](#): > > \*\*sdimbert- a point of information, if you would. Where are you getting the information that there were rocks piled at the Kotel Plaza? \*\* I got that information from a personal email sent by an Israeli Jew to a friend of his in the States. He was attempting to alert American Jews to things happening in the Middle East that were not reported in the general press. Of course, I can’t provide any third-party substantiation to his claims… that’s the whole point. If this is unsatisfactory, I will withdraw those claims from the debate. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The reason I ask is, if the information is based on what Sharon _alone_ has said (and for some reason, and quite possibly all of the wrong ones, that’s my impression), then you have a situation where it is much more of a he said/she said: Sharon says that his visit was not meant to incite, and that he saw evidence that the Palestinians were ready to revolt anyways; the Palestinians say that Sharon showed up to humiliate and harass them, and that he’s just trying to pin the blame back on them. > > If, on the other hand, the evidence is verified by other sources (_especially_ neutral sources; having Sharon’s top advisor say “Oh, yes, I saw the rocks too” seems to me as suspect as Al Gore calling Bill Clinton the greatest president of the 20th century) then I would support the conclusions that you draw, namely that the Palestinians were just looking for an excuse to start something. \*\* I am not going to answer your question directly… I want to use it as a springboard. You speak of Sharon’s “inciting” of the Palestinians. This is an idea that gets a lot of play in the Media. I think it is an example of how the talking heads on TV get to us without us knowing it. Look at CNN… they never refer to Sharon in print without the prefix, “The hawkish…” The media never discusses the violence in the region without giving a body count and pointing out that the vast majority of dead are Palestinian. Other examples exist. The idea that Sharon is in any way responsible for the riots is another example of this phenomenon. I think people just swallowed it, without considering the logic of blaming one man for the actions of thousands of others. Consider the following editorial (formatting and emphasis are, as always, mine). Exerpted from _Carnage For The Cameras_ by Robert L. Pollock, _The Wall Street Journal_ (October 7, 2000): > [@](#): > > \*Media bias influences not only how events in the Middle East are perceived, but how they unfold. \* > > …Indeed, the Times report that accompanied the wrongly captioned picture of Tuvia [Grossman] pretty much offered up the Palestinian Authority line: The violence had been “provoked” and “set off” when “Ariel Sharon, the rightist opposition leader, visited the Muslim compound on Thursday to assert Jewish claims to the site.” That the site of the biblical Jewish temple is strictly a “Muslim compound” is hardly obvious. Nor would there seem to be anything “rightist” or extreme in the idea that the Jews might have some claim to the site, which is buttressed by the famous Western Wall. > > Even more telling, perhaps, are the strangely similar collection of empty verbs the Times and legions of others have used to describe what happened that day. Searching a database of major American and international papers earlier this week, I found some 50 other articles that said Mr. Sharon’s visit had “set off” the violence. More than two-dozen said it was “touched off” by him. And more than 120 said he had “sparked” the riots. > > For a newspaper like the Times that prides itself on political correctness, and indeed agonized over the potential insensitivity to Asian-Americans of its Wen Ho Lee coverage, such language is strangely dehumanizing – implying that the Palestinians are a bunch of automatons whose actions can be influenced with nearly as much causative assurance as lighting an actual fire. But removing an entire class of human beings from the realm of moral discourse does serve a purpose if you’re convinced Mr. Sharon is at fault: It effectively shuts off debate. After all, you can evaluate the actions of people who choose to respond to perceived provocations with violence. But who can blame folks who were merely “set off”? > > In fact, the evidence that the riots were almost entirely premeditated – that Mr. Sharon’s visit was a pretext, not a “spark” – is almost impossible to denyIsraeli forces had been on high alert for some time before the outbreak, in answer to intelligence reports that Yasser Arafat had given the shock troops of his Fatah faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization – the Tanzim, or “organization” – the green light for serious violence. > > The Tanzim has branches everywhere in the Palestinian territories, and is responsible for getting demonstrators out into the street. They were the prime movers behind the riots over the Temple Mount archaeological tunnel that erupted in 1996, as well as those that broke out in the spring of this year. > > Ever since the Oslo Accords, Tanzim members have been increasingly armed with automatic weapons, which have helped make these recent riots so deadly. Even if most demonstrators are only throwing stones, the presence of a few guns in the crowd puts Israeli soldiers in an infinitely more precarious position. > > The existence and role of the Tanzim are no secret to anyone reporting from the region. Indeed, they seem to have featured in nearly every statement from the Israeli government since the fighting broke out. But their existence is inconvenient for those who want to portray this as a spontaneous uprising of oppressed people, and the dead and injured as entirely innocent victims. So it’s little surprise their name hasn’t appeared in any but a handful of recent reports in the U.S., even to rebut Israeli government claims. > > The organized nature of the violence casts a slightly different light on the most famous photos yet to emerge: those of 12-year-old Muhammed Durrah… It’s very unlikely that anyone might have wandered into Muhammed’s position just in front of the Palestinian outpost in the middle of a firefight merely by accident. That makes Muhammed’s death no less tragic – but one starts to wonder if more of the blame lies with Palestinian children’s shows that praise the virtues of martyrdom, or the PA’s terrorist training camps for children (something the Times has reported on)… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/59 "2000-10-16T15:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > \*\* > The organized nature of the violence casts a slightly different light on the most famous photos yet to emerge: those of 12-year-old Muhammed Durrah… It’s very unlikely that anyone might have wandered into Muhammed’s position just in front of the Palestinian outpost in the middle of a firefight merely by accident. That makes Muhammed’s death no less tragic – > \*\* Are you saying that his situation was planned? I thought a French journalist took the tape. A journalist would be out looking for something like that. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750/60 "2000-10-16T16:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > The organized nature of the violence casts a slightly different light on the most famous photos yet to emerge: those of 12-year-old Muhammed Durrah… It’s very unlikely that anyone might have wandered into Muhammed’s position just in front of the Palestinian outpost in the middle of a firefight merely by accident. That makes Muhammed’s death no less tragic – \*\* > > Are you saying that his situation was planned? > I thought a French journalist took the tape. A journalist would be out looking for something like that. \*\* Coupla’ things: First of all, **I** am saying nothing about Durrah. As I explained in my post, the section you quoted includes the words of Robert L. Pollock, a writer who works for the _Wall Street Journal_. Second of all, no, I don’t think Pollack implies that Durrah’s death was planned. I think that he means that Durrah didn’t “just happen” to be there; rather he was taking part in a violent protest, and the people who instructed him to participate knew that, if he was hurt or killed, his age would engender sympathy for the cause. Either way, I did not post Pollack’s article to discuss Durrah - I posted it in support of the idea that blaming Sharon for the Palestinian’s actions is absurd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-rocket-attacks/36750.md?page=4)