# Israeli settlements: wisdom, morality, and legality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471 "2016-12-23T19:41:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/41 "2016-12-24T12:01:17Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I’m having trouble coming up with the poster that lives in such a settlement. (And in good Dope tradition, you’re posting about it on the Sabbath, so you won’t hear from them for a day or so 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/42 "2016-12-24T12:11:53Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Israel only bombs/uses military against Palestinians when provoked. > > The Palestinians, on the other hand, for years have, on whims, indiscriminately blown themselves up against Israelis, hijacked planes around the globe, turned down good faith peace offers, denied The Holocaust and promoted other Nazi ideas and Protocols, and straight up act like radical Islamic savages. Israel’s other enemies, like Iran, sponsor and support all those things as well as seek to nuke Israel for no good reason. Contrast. And no, Mondoweiss, Electronic Jihad i mean Electronic Intifada, and Al Jazeera are not real news/editorial sources. Even if the situation was this cartoonishly one sided and simple, and Israel is just the poor victim of aggressive neighbours, biased media and a bullying UN (which I happen to think is a load of bull)… How does this justify the settlement-building? Whenever this topic comes up on the dope, and elsewhere, the pro-Israel side want to talk about anything but the matter at hand. Or is the argument that the settlements reduce the risk of rocket attacks because… reasons ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/43 "2016-12-24T14:12:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Recall the context: **Derek** said there was no genocide of the Palestinians happening, as their population was increasing. I said that the world wouldn’t stand for a Holocaust of Palestinians - that makes it pretty darn clear that I’m saying that mass killings **aren’t** happening - but that settlements were another way to achieve the same end. > > Then **Derek** claimed that using the word (Holocaust or genocide, it’s unclear which) “shows that people like [me] are not interested in peace between Israel and “Palestine;” [we’re] only interested in ending Israel or else \* wouldn’t knowingly lie about it.” > > By “lie about it”, I can only guess that he means lie about a genocide of Palestinians, which I pointedly didn’t claim. . It’s kind of a hijack of this thread, but I’ll just say that if settlements “achieve the same end”, then what’s the difference? Here’s what you said: \*The world wouldn’t stand for a Holocaust of the Palestinians. But, with the US backing them, they might be able to slowly squeeze them tighter and tighter, drive up the population density, drive down the economy and life expectancy, and go from there. \* You left it up to the reader to determine what “go from there” was, and since the discussion was genocide, I think a reasonable person reading what you wrote would interpret “go from there” as “wiping them out”. That is, genocide. If you meant something different, you should have been clearer. I would classify “go from there” as, at best, weasel wording that allowed you to invoke genocide but with plausible deniability if called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/44 "2016-12-24T15:01:16Z")
Let’s look at Ronald Reagan’s position on the issue: "The United States will not support the use of any additional land for the purpose of settlements during the transitional period. Indeed, the immediate adoption of a settlement freeze by Israel, more than any other action, could create the confidence needed for wider participation in these talks. Further settlement activity is in no way necessary for the security of Israel and only diminishes the confidence of the Arabs that a final outcome can be freely and fairly negotiated.” As has been referenced before, I think there’s a misperceptions in the US that settlements and settlers in the West Bank have general support in Israel despite the controversy - maybe how much of the world thinks the US invasion of Afghanistan was controversial, but it really is not controversial here. I think the closer analogy would be, let’s say that the Libertarians in the US convince the President to do something like, say, withdraw the US from all treaties that don’t involve trade because they think these treaties infringe on US sovereignty. Like NATO - gone; Geneva Conventions - gone; etc. In such a case, would all our allies be stabbing the US in the back if they didn’t support our reckless policies? I don’t think so. Some of this settlement activity is truly outrageous, but I don’t know the details of what is in the latest round of expansions. For example, in the Old City of Jerusalem, some settlers just decided to build their own house right on top of someone else’s. The original homeowner is of course totally powerless to do anything about it, either by legal means or by force. They just have to deal with some families having seized their roof to build a few more stories, put up concertina wire and some armed guards, and start living their life right there. That is seriously messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/45 "2016-12-24T15:24:06Z")
Looking over my last post, using Libertarians as an example isn’t very accurate because they are a truly fringe group in the US. Maybe Tea Partiers is a better example because despite the fact they are out of the mainstream, they are substantially more numerous. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/46 "2016-12-24T15:52:51Z")
The US has been working on a Two-State Solution for ages. Looks like Netanyahu has given up on the idea, expecting the next US administration to support his own policies. Honestly, I don’t see it. Sure, Peace with their neighbours is ridiculously difficult, but still the only long-lasting choice. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/47 "2016-12-24T16:26:47Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Honestly, I don’t see it. Sure, Peace with their neighbours is ridiculously difficult, but still the only long-lasting choice. There are 4 neighbors. Israel is at peace with Jordan and Egypt. Peace with Syria in the state it is in right now is not realistic. And as long as Hizbullah is in charge of Lebanon, neither is peace with Lebanon. ---
**Author:** ![Donpeyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Donpeyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donpeyote)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/48 "2016-12-24T16:45:25Z")
Hamastan (Gaza) is a perfect example of what Israel WOULD GET WITH A NEW ARAB STATE WITHIN ITS BORDERS … ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/49 "2016-12-24T16:51:48Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > Hamastan (Gaza) is a perfect example of what Israel WOULD GET WITH A NEW ARAB STATE WITHIN ITS BORDERS … And what is the other option? Because having a non-state isn’t working great either. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/50 "2016-12-24T17:19:06Z")
I propose keeping the settlements, but inviting Palestinian families to have ever other residence. Let the kids play together, fall in love and intermarry. Problem solved in one generation. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/51 "2016-12-24T17:26:21Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > Hamastan (Gaza) is a perfect example of what Israel WOULD GET WITH A NEW ARAB STATE WITHIN ITS BORDERS … Let me assure you that even if you would put the most peaceful people in the conditions they have in Gaza they would rebel and fight. Gaza is basically a 140 sq. mile prison camp barricaded by both Israel and Egypt. The population is 1.85 million. No one can enter or exit except by permission from one of the sides which is granted mainly to collaborators (and is limited anyway). They have a catastrophic water supply, electricity is more often off than on, and yes, they also suffer from a very illiberal government. So this is what you get when you treat people like animals. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/52 "2016-12-24T17:26:58Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > The US has been working on a Two-State Solution for ages. It really hasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/53 "2016-12-24T17:35:21Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It really hasn’t. What? Working or working for ages? ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/54 "2016-12-24T18:12:35Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It really hasn’t. This. The only way a solution will happen is _by the international community to impose it_. The Israeli trope of "solution only by negotiating between the 2 parties " is really a pretext for preserving the status-quo. Not that the Palestinians are angels. The parameters of the solution are well-known by everyone and accepted by a majority of Israelis and Palestinians, who unfortunately are prevented by the extremists on both sides to pursue it. This could have happened during Obama’s presidency, but he had not the spine for that. It is AIPAC who is holding the US hostage to the do-nothing position, and, as an Israeli, I pray that AIPAC’s back will be broken. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/55 "2016-12-24T18:24:49Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > Zero (Obama ) & Lurch (Kerry ) backstabbed Israel on their way out today . Hardly backstabbing. Leastwise not in the sense of a surprise betrayal. Israel had years and months of warning this day was coming. In this specific instance they had a couple of weeks in which to lobby against the move within the USA. In my opinion, Israel has become the bully. Some Israelis have even called for the final solution to the Palestinian problem - the irony totally escaping them in their hatred of the native people. Back in '67 and '73 when Israel was surrounded by enemies, they were anything but the bully and easy to cheer for. Not any more. Their actions towards the Palestinian residents was deserving of formal UN condemnation a decade ago. This was overlong in coming. Many Israelis agree with the resolution. They know when their country is in the wrong. The time for a two state solution may be past. I hope not since the only long term alternatives are either the complete destruction of Israel or the complete destruction of the civilized world. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/56 "2016-12-25T11:44:20Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > “international law”, such that it is, does not recognize territory taken by force as legitimate in the modern age. Are you willing to concede that Russia can take the Crimea and then some? That the entire South China Sea belongs to China? I am sure there is will be many excuses > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Wait, so Poland taking former German land east of the Oder-Neisse isn’t recognized by international law? And … So wait, suddenly you want to use the hated **Communist** s impositions and the diktat of Stalin and the Soviet Union as your moral guide. Funny, the opposition to this is what you argue other Flexible, the morality then. Some “shining” example, then, you can get so teary eyed over. > [@Donpeyote](#): > > Throw in Russia taking East Prussia after WW2 ,its amazing how Far Left & Left havi it in for Israel (The Tiny Jewish State) even Non Practicing Ethnic Jewish Liberals buy into it … Far Left? It is more a case of how amazing a Far Right in the USA and perhaps in the Israel are ready to use the 1945- forward post WWII Diktat of the USSR and of Stalin as their moral guide. The forced population transfers and the Diktat of Stalin about the borders annexations by the Soviets (“kindly” compensating the Poles for the Soviet seizure of their lands with the German terrirories) is very much what cause the Western drafters of the 1949 drafted Geneva Convention was aimed at in these accords… But now that the American Far Right have become the Pultin apologists, I suppose it is all forgiven in favor of the pretext. > [@Procrustus](#): > > I propose keeping the settlements, but inviting Palestinian families to have ever other residence. Let the kids play together, fall in love and intermarry. Problem solved in one generation. Funny. > [@doubleminus](#): > > Let me assure you that even if you would put the most peaceful people in the conditions they have in Gaza they would rebel and fight. Gaza is basically a 140 sq. mile prison camp barricaded by both Israel and Egypt. The population is 1.85 million. No one can enter or exit except by permission from one of the sides which is granted mainly to collaborators (and is limited anyway). They have a catastrophic water supply, electricity is more often off than on, and yes, they also suffer from a very illiberal government. > > So this is what you get when you treat people like animals. It is indeed the case that there is no Ghazan state, there is a territory the Israeli forces deliberately withdrew from as uninteresting for the settlement and extremely expensive and unpleasant for the direct occuption. > [@Donpeyote](#): > > Hamastan (Gaza) is a perfect example of what Israel WOULD GET WITH A NEW ARAB STATE WITHIN ITS BORDERS … > [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > And what is the other option? Because having a non-state isn’t working great either. He is of course a person who in some other thread refered to London, UK without Irony to as “Londonistan”… it tells you the kind of information and thinking. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/57 "2016-12-25T21:15:01Z")
Since the vote is now on record, is there actually anything Trump can do about it? Unless the UNSC decides to vote again (and how likely is that), there is no way to erase this vote. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/58 "2016-12-25T21:49:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since the vote is now on record, is there actually anything Trump can do about it? Unless the UNSC decides to vote again (and how likely is that), there is no way to erase this vote. Right? No. But the resolution is declarative only and has no enforcement authority. Netanyahu already dismissed it. We can rest assured that any other similar resolution in the next 4 years (at least) that comes up will get a prompt US veto. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/59 "2016-12-26T02:02:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s kind of a hijack of this thread, but I’ll just say that if settlements “achieve the same end”, then what’s the difference? Means matter as well as ends. Say you were a neighbor, and I wished for you to move away. Would you say that there was no difference between offering to buy your house at a large markup, and murdering you? > [@](#): > > Here’s what you said: > > \*The world wouldn’t stand for a Holocaust of the Palestinians. But, with the US backing them, they might be able to slowly squeeze them tighter and tighter, drive up the population density, drive down the economy and life expectancy, and go from there. \* > > You left it up to the reader to determine what “go from there” was, and since the discussion was genocide, I think a reasonable person reading what you wrote would interpret “go from there” as “wiping them out”. That is, genocide. > > If you meant something different, you should have been clearer. I would classify “go from there” as, at best, weasel wording that allowed you to invoke genocide but with plausible deniability if called on it. “Go from there” can hardly mean mass killing to a reasonable reader, when I’ve explicitly ruled it out as a possibility. But imagine a ceaseless drumbeat of settlement building, coupled with embargos, taking over water resources, and so on. In other words, make living in the occupied territories more and more miserable as time goes by. It’s quite possible that this could drive another nation to accept and resettle refugees; or drive down the population growth rate in the territories to such a degree that it changes the implications of annexation; or cause huge numbers of Palestinians to take their chances crossing the sea as “boat people”, trying to reach Europe. No mass killing required. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471/60 "2016-12-26T18:17:39Z")
Question from interested, but ignorant, Doper: Isn’t the settlement issue simply a case of “Israel promised not to encroach, and now Israel encroached and broke its promise by building settlements?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-settlements-wisdom-morality-and-legality/775471.md?page=4)