# Israeli Terrorism, Have The Abused Become the Abusers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729 "2003-01-05T05:22:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aaaphen256](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aaaphen256](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaaphen256)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/1 "2003-01-05T05:22:02Z")
Israeli brutality in the occupied territories is finally beginning to make it into the American press: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3878-2003Jan2.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3878-2003Jan2.html) but not nearly as much as it should. Israel’s human rights record is lousy, as recorded by Amnesty International and other human rights groups: [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/israel+and+the+occupied+territories+!Open](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/israel+and+the+occupied+territories+!Open) Meanwhile the US is asked to give Israel billions of dollars. We ought to say no, until Israel cleans up it’s act. ---
**Author:** ![Splanky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@Splanky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Splanky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/2 "2003-01-05T06:01:47Z")
They always seem to leave out “oh yea, the kid was waving his gun in the air running at the soldier when he was shot”, or “oh yea, the guy was killed during a riot as he smashed windows and threw rocks at armed soldiers”. I won’t doubt that Israel could improve their treatment of Palestinians , but sometimes the truth is concealed to make Israel look bad. If we were in the West Bank right now, I doubt we’d see tanks launching shells into Palestinian houses, soldiers sniping everyone who goes outside, and Israelis running the streets slaughtering Palestinians with machetes. It just isn’t like that. And unfortunatly, sometimes it’s portrayed just that way. If this “lottery” thing is true (as they really just pick random people off the street and bludgeon them) then I have a problem with that. I don’t think Israel has made a statement on those accusitions, unfortunatly. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/3 "2003-01-05T06:12:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Splanky \* > **I won’t doubt that Israel could improve their treatment of Palestinians , but sometimes the truth is concealed to make Israel look bad. If we were in the West Bank right now, I doubt we’d see tanks launching shells into Palestinian houses, soldiers sniping everyone who goes outside, and Israelis running the streets slaughtering Palestinians with machetes. It just isn’t like that. And unfortunatly, sometimes it’s portrayed just that way.** So how long have you spent in the West Bank, then? In fact, people who have actually been there report these exact things happening, and worse, although the IDF doesn’t have to slaughter Palestinians with machetes. They have the most sophisticated weaponry on Earth, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer, so they can slaughter from afar. Also, far from things being portrayed to make Israel look bad, the western press, in particular the U.S. press bends over backward to make Israel look good, and lies continuously about what is happening. In what has to be a unique situation in history, you actually get a much more critical view about what Israel is doing from the Israeli press than you do in the U.S. press. Check out Ha’aretz, for example, and compare to CNN: [http://www.haaretzdaily.com/](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/4 "2003-01-05T07:00:41Z")
Whoever wrote that Washington Post editorial (“THERE HAS BEEN a lull recently in Palestinian attacks against Israelis…”) obviously didn’t read [their own paper the day before.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64776-2003Jan1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/5 "2003-01-05T16:51:06Z")
Abused? Check out the backgrounds of people such as Begin, Sharon, and the like. Jews had used terrorism to establish Israel and haven’t stopped. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/6 "2003-01-05T20:01:52Z")
Here we go again. (See the recent thread on “Palestinian children” [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=152838](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=152838)) I’ll listen to the sob story about the underreporting of Israeli abuses when Palestinian human rights abuses get the headlines they should. Let us compare Amnesty International’s assessment of Israel to its assessment of the PA: [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.n...ES?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.n...ES?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > More than 300 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli security forces; most were unlawfully killed during the new Intifada (uprising). More than 2,500 Palestinians and Israelis were arrested for political reasons. Scores of detainees were ill-treated. At least 25 Palestinians were held in administrative detention during 2000. All Lebanese nationals held in the Khiam detention centre in southern Lebanon under Israeli occupation were released. Hundreds of Palestinians from the Occupied Territories were tried before military courts in trials whose procedures fell short of international standards. Houses in the Occupied Territories continued to be demolished as a result of a discriminatory policy which denied most Palestinians building permits. > {snip} > Torture/ill-treatment > > Draft bills submitted to the Knesset by individual members which would allow the General Security Service (GSS) to use ‘‘special means’’ to interrogate detainees were dropped in February. > > Palestinian detainees under interrogation were frequently held incommunicado for up to 20 days, and some for as long as 90 days. Many detainees reported that they were beaten immediately after arrest by members of the security forces who almost invariably benefited from impunity. Nothing to be proud of. Ha’Aretz and Israeli human rights groups are right to call upon their government to do better. To do everything in their power to hold their government to appropriate standards. Just like the American press would be correct in being critical of human rights abuses by American forces as we try to combat terror. How about the PA? [http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.n...TY?OpenDocument](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.n...TY?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > More than 360 people, including prisoners of conscience, were arrested for political reasons during 2000; most had been released by the end of the year. Torture and ill-treatment were widespread. At least 300 people arrested in previous years were held without charge or trial, including people suspected of ‘‘collaborating’’ with the Israeli authorities and suspected members of Islamist opposition groups. Large numbers of Islamists, some of whom had been held without charge since 1996, were released in September and October. State Security Courts continued to sentence political detainees after unfair trials. Three people were sentenced to death. The Palestinian Authority (PA) failed to bring those responsible for human rights abuses to justice > {snip} > Torture and ill-treatment by various Palestinian security forces were widespread. One man died in custody in circumstances suggesting that torture or ill-treatment may have caused or hastened his death. Prolonged incommunicado detention in the period immediately after arrest facilitated torture. The PA failed to investigate complaints of torture and bring those responsible to justice. And what does Human Rights Watch say about the PA? [http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/pa/](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/pa/) > [@](#): > > Methods of Torture and Ill-Treatment: Testimonies and Reports > Many of the methods of torture being used during this Intifada have been common since the PA was established, including: > · shabah, being made to stand or sit up in painful positions for long periods, often hooded or blindfolded and often combined with sleep deprivation; > · falaqa, beating on the soles of the feet; > · beating, punching and kicking the victim, especially around the head and ears, sometimes using a leather-covered stick about one meter long, and sometimes while the victim is hooded or blindfolded; > · suspension by the wrists, with feet barely touching the floor; > · threats of death or injury, including rape. > Palestinian human rights organizations also report that some techniques common in the past are still sometimes used, such as burning with cigarettes and exposure alternately to extremes of hot and cold. Families are often not allowed to visit detainees until signs of torture have faded. However, people who visited Nasr Abu Kbash (see above), told Human Rights Watch that they saw obvious signs of mistreatment, including a swollen face. 101 This was the first time he had been allowed visitors after his arrest by the GIS in November 2000 for alleged collaboration with Israel. > General Tawfiq Tirawi, the head of the General Intelligence Service in the West Bank, acknowledged to Human Rights Watch that Hussam al-‛??Aslini, convicted in January 2001 in Bethlehem (see State Security Court below), had been mistreated by the Criminal Investigation Police (al-bahth al-jina’i) when initially arrested in December 2000. Tirawi denied, however, that the detainee had been mistreated after he had been transferred to the custody of the GIS. Other sources alleged that the torture included being whipped with electrical wire, being forced to stand on sharp objects, and being threatened with death.102 > Khaled al-‛??Akkeh was arrested by the PSS in Gaza on February 14, 2001 and convicted by the Gaza State Security Court on August 12, 2001 of helping Israeli forces kill Mas’ud Ayyad on February 13, 2001. Over a period of eighteen days after his arrest al-‛??Akkeh was allegedly subjected to shabah and punched repeatedly in the face with his head hooded. He is said to have lost some vision in his right eye and some of his hearing in his left ear. He was able to receive visitors about twenty to thirty days after his arrest.103 Khaled al-‛??Akkeh was shot by police on September 9, 2001, apparently while trying to escape from custody (see Deaths in Custody below). > Sometimes torture is used to obtain false testimony to strengthen a case against another person. Yusra al-Ramlawi, a 29-year-old woman from Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip, was arrested in June by the GIS. Al-Ramlawi was not accused of being a collaborator herself, but was tortured in an unsuccessful attempt to persuade her to give false evidence that would implicate another person as a collaborator.104 A confidential source told Human Rights Watch al-Ramlawi was two months pregnant at the time of the arrest and had informed her interrogators of this. Nevertheless, she was beaten into unconsciousness, which caused her to miscarry and lose the fetus. Some days later an interrogator threatened to rape her, but stopped when al-Ramlawi screamed. Despite a complaint to other officers, that interrogator was back at work three days later. At the end of June, al-Ramlawi was transferred to the GIS section of al-Saraya prison in Gaza City, where she was allegedly further beaten. The interrogation and mistreatment only stopped when she was transferred to the main part of al-Saraya prison. There she was able to receive visitors but remained in detention without charge or trial as of the beginning of September.105 > > Torture is often used to extract a confession, but not always successfully. A 37-year-old Palestinian male from Nablus, whose identity is being kept confidential due to fear of possible reprisals, was arrested by the PSS in August 2001.106 During three days of interrogation he was reportedly punched and kicked and made to stand on one leg for many hours in an attempt to make him confess to cooperating with Israeli security. After three days, and failing to obtain a confession, the PSS transferred him to Junayd prison. After about ten days he was released, but was then rearrested almost two weeks later by the PSS. In the PSS section of Junayd prison he was reportedly subjected further to shabah in an attempt to force him to confess. > The Case of F.M., 28-Year-Old Woman107 > F.M., a 28-year-old woman, whose identity is known to Human Rights Watch but is being kept confidential due to fear of possible reprisals, was arrested by the General Intelligence Service in June 2001. The aim of her interrogation was to get her to admit to giving M…, a suspected collaborator, the names of Palestinians who were shooting at Israeli forces. Describing her second day of interrogation, F.M. told Human Rights Watch: > He [the interrogator] came and covered my eyes and pulled my hair. “What is your relationship with M…?” I said, “He is the neighbor of a relative.” “You didn’t know he is a collaborator?” He then struck me with both hands on the ears. I couldn’t hear anything [for a while]. He pushed me and I fell to the floor… “Raise your legs.” He brought a chair [and put my legs on them] and started hitting the soles of my feet with [a leather-covered stick used for animal herding]. > The interrogator threatened F.M. that her fate would be the same as a girl whose body had been found on the street recently. F.M. continued: > He told me “We are the strongest Palestinian group and we can do whatever we want …” “Excuse me,” said another man behind me, “it seems to me she doesn’t want to talk and I want to open her mouth to make her talk.” He then struck me on the ears again and beat my feet as I sat on a chair. I was then taken from the room and pushed into another room [used as a cell], still blindfolded. Suddenly someone kicked me karate style on the head. I fell unconscious on the floor. When I woke up I had a headache and couldn’t feel anything in my right hand and arm and my leg was numb. The next day both hands were numb and I could not see clearly. > F.M. was taken to a medical clinic where a nurse insisted on keeping her for treatment. This was refused and F.M. was returned to the detention center. Her treatment improved. For the next four weeks the GIS kept promising she would be released. Instead, F.M. was transferred to another detention center108 where she was interrogated for seven days, eight hours a day well into the night, again seeking a confession of a relationship with M… Here she was again subjected to falaqa and beatings, including from a female guard. F.M. explained: > Every time they asked me about M… and I said no, they would beat me… They would make me stand in the corridor outside [other interrogation rooms], just to listen. I could hear the men crying because of the torture. > Three months after being arrested, F.M. was released without charge. She has continuing medical effects of the torture, including constant headaches and difficulty walking. > Deaths in Custody > Five Palestinians are known to have died in police or security force custody since the current Intifada began, at least three in circumstances which suggest that torture may have contributed to the death (Not to mention what HRW calls a “crime against humanity”, terrorist bombing targetted at civilians.) Funny, no calls in Arab press for improvement. No headlines about these abuses in The Washington Post. Interesting that. Now to that “Jews” using “terrorism to establish Israel”. True enough there were terrorist groups in the days of Israel’s formation. The Stern gang was a bunch of criminal thugs, similar to those allied with the PA, and targeted civilians just as those affiliated with the PA do. Irgun also employed terror tactics although unlike those affiliated with the PA aimed for military targets. Both were effectively squashed by Ben Gurion’s leadership. Unlike Arafat, Israeli leadership condemned and controlled those who would utilize terror within their ranks. And if you really need cites again about how Arab terror against Jews in Israel/Palestine predate even the formation of Israel I would be happy to once again oblige. ---
**Author:** ![aaaphen256](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aaaphen256](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaaphen256)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/7 "2003-01-06T03:29:30Z")
I was referring to Jews in general: abused in Europe and then in 1948 and beyond they . . . ---
**Author:** ![aaaphen256](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aaaphen256](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaaphen256)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/8 "2003-01-06T03:39:52Z")
“I’ll listen to the sob story about the underreporting of Israeli abuses when Palestinian human rights abuses get the headlines they should.” We hear all the time about the suicide bombings and nothing at all about IDF murders or that more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis. Then the American people are asked to pony up $12 billion more for Israel. I think you’re complaint is a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/9 "2003-01-06T04:07:28Z")
Of course, you wouldn’t want to condemn the PALESTIAN murderers, would you? [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=2&cid=578&u=/nm/20030105/ts\_nm/mideast\_explosion\_dc](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=2&cid=578&u=/nm/20030105/ts_nm/mideast_explosion_dc) ---
**Author:** ![aaaphen256](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aaaphen256](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaaphen256)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/10 "2003-01-06T04:21:33Z")
Also may I point out, from your post: > [@](#): > > More than 300 Palestinians were **killed** by the Israeli security forces . . . > > More than 360 people, including prisoners of conscience, were **arrested**. . . Big difference, and I don’t know where the 300 comes from. According to the article I cite in the OP, **2000** Palestinians were killed over a 15 month period by the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![aaaphen256](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aaaphen256](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaaphen256)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/11 "2003-01-06T04:43:30Z")
Who are you talking to milroy? If your talking to me, of course I condemn the Hamas murderers. ---
**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/12 "2003-01-06T10:52:19Z")
aaaphen256 You picked a **really good day** to launch this one. Try telling your story to the 23 dead innocent civilians - are they listening? Tell it to the hundred or so in hospital (and all the families of the dead and wounded). On another day, I may have been tempted, like DSeid, to take you to tak over your horrible posting, but in view of the obvious viciou slant that your OP wording reveals about you, you can go to hell with the murderers who did this. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/13 "2003-01-06T11:25:53Z")
Or trying telling that to the 50 Palestinians killed in the last month or the Palestinian man who was beaten to death, etc, etc. :rolleyes: The attack today was an atrocity but it attacks like this don’t excuse the occupation or Israeli state terrorism or allow you to ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/14 "2003-01-06T12:35:57Z")
Should we make a boilerplate for every post that says “I condemn all acts of violence against innocent peoples, but I must comment on the following:” Because jumping to the conclusion that the OP condones the recent terrorist suicide bombings because he condemns the Israeli terrorist actions against the Palestinians is a bit of a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/15 "2003-01-06T13:20:43Z")
TwistofFate How about you make a boilerplate that says “I condemn all acts of violence against innocent people”. No buts, no ifs, no exceptions. I’ll sign that one - will aaaphen256? ---
**Author:** ![SalomeX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@SalomeX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SalomeX)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/16 "2003-01-06T13:34:28Z")
Just a brief comment (my first here). For twenty of my twenty-five years on this planet I have lived in the Republic of Ireland. I watch the news, I read papers daily, I have listened to arguments on both sides and still don’t have much of a clue how the problem can be solved or worked through - you are talking about generations of hatred -Its bloody complicated! I know even less about Israel and Palestine - but even a little research will wield much evidence showing that Israel has consistently committed dire acts contravening human rights and is blatantly operating a system of apartheid in which Palestinians are living as second-class citizens. I don’t believe in partisan politics- killing inevitably leads to more killing - but it’s easy to see why the Palestinians are pissed off. America needs to stop funding Israel’s state sponsored terrorism - and Americans (though I fear I may be preaching to the converted here) need to start checking out their facts before happily sending their tax dollars to fund wars that are quite frankly none of their business. I once had a discussion with a girl from NJ whose vast knowledge on the political situation in Ireland became apparent when she said “ohhh I know all about the North of Ireland and the IRS” There is always more to the picture. If you live in America don’t trust the American press to inform you correctly, do a little research -the BBC archives for example - or any European papers you can find (or understand) online - and share them with your friends - and discuss them - form opinions rather than just accepting them. And America better start getting itself informed pretty soon - because if people accept being spoon-fed by corrupt media, if they stop questioning and debating and get swept up in a wave of hatred and extreme nationalism as seems to be happening at the moment - well god (or some other significant higher being) help us all - because I think I may fear Bush more than Hitler… Shine! SX ---
**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/17 "2003-01-06T13:46:32Z")
SalomeX Why don’t you read your own post > [@](#): > > I know even less about Israel and Palestine … How true! > [@](#): > > I once had a discussion with a girl from NJ whose vast knowledge on the political situation in Ireland became apparent when she said “ohhh I know all about the North of Ireland and the IRS” Do you hear yourself anywhere in there? > [@](#): > > do a little research -the BBC archives for example - or any European papers you can find You picked some real good ones there - the BBC has been selected for two years running as the most biased media site **in the world** when it comes to Israel. To give an example that may have some sense to you - the IRA are called “terrorists”, Hamas and the rest of the murderes are called “freedom fighters”. And Europe, of course : the epitome of even-handedness. Where do you think the PLO’s money comes from? Where has there been a peak of anti-Semitic attacks in 2002? Mexico? Australia? France? - you choose. Basically, everything you said besides “don’t have much of a clue” is pure bullshit. That bit was a gem, but. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/18 "2003-01-06T14:28:33Z")
Blah Blah Blah. My news source is less bias than yours / My country is less fucked up than yours / My murdering bastard is a nicer murdering bastard than yours AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/19 "2003-01-06T16:40:30Z")
rampisad do you actually WATCH the BBC? ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/20 "2003-01-06T18:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aaaphen256 \* > \*\*According to the article I cite in the OP, **2000** Palestinians were killed over a 15 month period by the IDF. \*\* Of course, this includes (in addition to the civilians you seem to imply): 1. terrorists killed by the IDF 2. gunmen engaged in inidivudal firefights with IDF forces 3. suicide bombers who die when they commit their atrocities 4. people who planned to be suicide bombers, or abet said people, but died when they blew themselves up in “work accidents” 5. Palestinian human shields purposefully brought in by Palestianian terrorists to create newspaper headlines about the IDF killing civilians So it’s not as simple as your idiotic body count. This is especially true because the IDF stops about 90-95% of planned terrorist attacks. There have “only” been 700 Israelis killed because the Israelis are good at what they do. Does that mean the Israelis are perfect? No, they have undoubtedly committed human rights violations, just as _every other motherfucking country in the world has_. These are morally unacceptable, but they are criticized constantly, perhaps most of all within the Israeli press (have you ever read [Ha’Aretz](http://www.haaretzdaily.com)?). The difference is that the Israeli side will correct its own errors - in fact, fairly consistently considers them errors - whereas little such self-criticism takes place on the Palestinian side. Even the letter signed by 55 Palestinian intellectuals last year, which called for an end to suicide bombings inside the Green Line, did so only because such tactics were self-defeating, not immoral. When Israeli terrorists hurt Palestinians, they are given trials and put in jail if they are guilty. When Palestinian terrorists hurt Israelis, they are sometimes put in jail (without a trial of course) by the PA if the political pressure is on, then quietly released when the pressure dies down. The deaths of civilians move one side to investigations, the other side to celebrations. I’ll give you a guess which is which. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729.md?page=2)