# Israeli Terrorism, Have The Abused Become the Abusers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729 "2003-01-05T05:22:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/41 "2003-01-07T18:54:14Z")
Nice to make claims. Another to support them. Visit AI and HRW and check out what is done across the world. See my first post in this thread for a comparison of Israel’s less than stellar record and the truly horrific record of torture by the PA. Let alone dozens of other countries. None of which excuses Israeli offenses when they exist. What exactly is HH claiming Sharon did? He failed to prevent a massacre from occurring under his watch and was punished for his negligence. Is that it? BTW testy Israel used to officially sanction interrogation methods that were declared as torture by human rights groups … shaking, being kept awake, being forced to maintain uncomfortable positions, being forced to listen to loud bad music … for over the last three years Israel has outlawed those practices. The Chump may just be behind in the news. Wotta surprise. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/42 "2003-01-08T03:53:46Z")
Again, to **Chumpsky** this time. Name any country in a comparable situation (defensive war and occupation of lands with violent civil unrest, or urban warfare, hell even colonials and their occupations) who has done better. I don’t think you can find one. Because they violate some treaty somewhere doesn’t mean that they are doing far worse than others placed in a comparable situation. I don’t like the idea of settlers, I don’t defend settlements, even in a stretch I can see how they form legitimate military targets in the mind of some (although charging into a house and shooting children asleep in bed is still a war crime). But all in all, the Israeli response to the intifadas IMHO has been quite mild, and the Israeli occupation since 1967 cannot be considered the “some of the worst treatment of human beings on the face of the Earth.” Hell, the past 35 years has seen human rights atrocities that dwarf the West Bank and Gaza by orders of magnitude – the Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, Kosovo, Irian Jaya, the Taliban, Ethiopia/Eritrea, South African response to the Sharpeville riots and apartheid in general (which was a governmental policy for people living within the country, not occupied territory), Iraq and the Kurds, slavery in much of Africa, China’s treatment of political prisoners, Pinochet’s Chile, Cuba. The list goes on and on and I think Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians has been far better on average. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/43 "2003-01-08T07:22:13Z")
I’m sorry Sharon’s role at Sabra and Shantila went beyond, failing to prevent a massacre he was complicit and held responsibilty for the actions of the phalangists via the chain of command and the IDF who provisded auxillary support during the massacre. Even in Israel there was an outcry against the role of the IDF in the massacre and the inquiry recommended that Sharon should never be allowed to hold high office again. The compalint aginst Sharon lodged in a Belgium court: > [@](#): > > During the course of the morning, shells were being fired down at the camps from higher > elevations and Israeli snipers were shooting at people in the streets. By approximately > midday, the Israeli military command gave the Phalangist militia the green light to enter > the refugee camps. Shortly after 5 pm, a unit of approximately 150 Phalangists entered > Shatila camp from the south and south-west. > At this point, General Drori telephoned Ariel Sharon and announced, “Our friends are > advancing into the camps. We have co-ordinated their entry.” To which Sharon replied, > “Congratulations! Our friends’ operation is approved.’’11 > For the next 40 hours the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of > unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the “encircled and > sealed“ camps. These actions, accompanied or followed by systematic roundups, backed > or reinforced by the Israeli army, resulted in dozens of disappearances. > The Israeli army had full knowledge of what was going on in the camps right up until the > morning of Saturday 18 September 1982, and its leaders were in continuous contact with > the militia leaders who perpetrated the massacre. Yet they never intervened. Instead, > they prevented civilians from escaping the camps and arranged for the camps to be > illuminated throughout the night by flares launched into the sky from helicopters and > mortars. [http://www.indictsharon.net/cmptENft.pdf](http://www.indictsharon.net/cmptENft.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/44 "2003-01-08T08:13:38Z")
I asked above about the “official policy of torture” you mentioned. If the Israelis have an “official policy of torture,” then what is it? If this was just some sort of Commie-babble then please let me know. Testy. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/45 "2003-01-08T08:41:05Z")
Testy, this was discussed on another thread: Here is website run by Israelis who oppose Israel’s policy of torture: [http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/about.asp?menu=2&submenu=1](http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/about.asp?menu=2&submenu=1) The law that specifically allowed the use of torture was struck in 1999, however, from the PCATI 2001 report: > [@](#): > > The report is based on dozens of sworn affidavits of Palestinians who were interrogated following the September 6, 1999 High Court of Justice ruling. The report points to the fact that the high Court did nothing to change judicial and moral concepts by which an interrogator may consider using torture as a legitimate option, and even provided the GSS with a practical means such as sleep prevention and prolonged tying, allowing interrogators to continue to use the violent methods they had used in the past. torture is still in effect in Israel and it is still not prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/46 "2003-01-08T09:00:14Z")
Thanks for that, I appreciate the info. I understand from that site that the High Court in Israel **has** banned the use of torture. If that is so, then there is no “official policy of torture.” On the other hand, the reference you mentioned also states that torture still exists. If both these facts are true, then why aren’t there some IDF folks in jail for this? Is it just winked at as long as it’s done to the Palestinians? Jesus, Middle Eastern countries. What a snake pit. I’m in Saudi now and can see **their** torture center from my office window. Thanks again. Testy ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/47 "2003-01-08T10:32:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by edwino \* > \*\*Again, to _Chumpsky_ this time. Name any country in a comparable situation (defensive war and occupation of lands with violent civil unrest, or urban warfare, hell even colonials and their occupations) who has done better. \*\* Hmm, well, if we grant your absurd premises that Israel is in a defensive position, how about Vietnam after its invasion of Cambodia in 1978? The point is, though, that Israel should not be in the West Bank or Gaza, and that Israel bears sole responsibility for the problems it has created. Palestinians are fully entitled to fight back against their oppressors. I bring back the analogy of the wife beater. Suppose a man has been beating his wife for years, and his wife starts to get bitter. Do you blame her for acting out? Do you justify the wife beater because the wife has started to fight back, even if what she does may not, in normal times, be justified? Israel’s position is totally unjustifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/48 "2003-01-08T10:58:40Z")
- The point is, though, that Israel should not be in the West Bank or Gaza, and that Israel bears sole responsibility for the problems it has created.\* Right. Those wars in 1948, 1967 and 1973 (two of the three, '48 and '73, direct Arab invasions and the third a preemptive strike to prevent one) had absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s statements like the above, which attribute only Israel with responsibility and totally exonerate the Arab states roles in using the Palestinians as political pawns, which keep the peace process from moving forward. Just asking Chumpsky, but how do you excuse Jordan and Egypt not granting the Palestinians statehood, or anything even resembling independance, when they were in control of the West Back/Gaza for 20 odd years from 1948-1967? _Palestinians are fully entitled to fight back against their oppressors._ So then is Israel fully entitled to fight back against terrorist attacks? Or should they just turn the other cheek everytime a suicide bomb goes off in a bus in Tel Aviv? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/49 "2003-01-08T11:11:15Z")
Skip, the six day war happened in 1967, 35 years ago, Israel cannot justify such a long occupation. I’m not going to go into the issue of wether the war was a pre-emptive strike against an imminent attack or a cynical land-grab, but the Arabs are not a homogenouis unit just because, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria fired launched a few limited strikes back in 1967 does not give Israel the right to punish Palestinian civilians in 2002. By failing to recognise that the Arabs have legitimate grievances against Israel that stretch back to the arrival of the first zionist colonists and the ethnic cleansing of the 1948 war of independance, you are attempting to put the blame for all the subseqent conflicts on the Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/50 "2003-01-08T11:50:19Z")
I am not justifying Israel’s occupation of the territories. Even I feel they need to get out of there, but they can only do it when peace is viable. Common Israeli’s for the most part wish to have nothing to do with the territories but until their own safety is secure they can not just pack up and withdraw. The issue I bring up is Chumpsky attributing **all** of the blame of the Palestinians to the Israeli’s while completely ignoring the Arab states roles in their plight. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/51 "2003-01-08T11:59:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skip \* > \*\*I am not justifying Israel’s occupation of the territories. \*\* This is exactly what you are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/52 "2003-01-08T12:49:51Z")
And would you care to respond to any of the actual points I bring up in my post? ---
**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/53 "2003-01-08T15:28:12Z")
Skip Go for a walk up to the top of Table Mountain, and try to convince Lion’s Kop to face the other way - you’ll have more success than trying to get sense out of Chumpsky or MC on any issue regarding Israel! Thanks for trying, but! ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/54 "2003-01-08T16:37:18Z")
Or try to convince yourself that the people putting bombs in New York Bagel in Seapoint have a legitimate beef with the Jewish Occupying Force in Cape Town as an extension of Israel. It happened 3 days after I ate there. **Chumpsky** I know next to nothing about the Vietnam/Cambodia occupation. I will do my reading. But was there violent Cambodian opposition to occupation? My question was any occupying force (or any force whatsoever) encountering violent civil opposition. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/55 "2003-01-08T17:32:57Z")
Viet Nam???!!! Try again. [http://vc-crimes.virtualave.net/tacs-pg4.htm](http://vc-crimes.virtualave.net/tacs-pg4.htm) > [@](#): > > The aim is to destroy sources of opposition and create an atmosphere of quandary and fear in the populace. Agit-prop machine in previous years during the Vietnam War always repeated the policy of “concord and reconciliation” (Ho`a ho+.p va` ho`a gia?i) among Vietnamese people with its main principle of “no vengeance”. Some American officials like Senator McGovern believed it saying that a bloodbath (if communists took power) in Vietnam was just a big foul cry.In reality, bloody liquidation done by communists towards their enemies was a frequent practice kept skillfully at low profile in the first days of taking power. > > For example : a massacre occurred in the province Phu Khanh (Phu’ Kha’nh) in the beginning of 4/1975 after the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) withdrew from this province. In the communes (xa~) of Tho Vuc (Tho. Vu+.c), Lu Ba (Lu` Ba), Cay Xop (Ca^y Xo.p), Ho Ngua (Ho^' Ngu+.a) and Cau Dai (Ca^`u Da`i), people found massive graves; one of them contained 223 corpses; another, 85. The victims were often knifed, hammered on head or shot to death. In the same province of Phu Khanh, 373 persons were killed by machine guns. Their bodies were found tied together, floating on the river Darang (so^ng DDa` Ra\<`ng). Massacres during the night were reported in many remote places in the provinces of Quang Nam (Qua?ng Nam), Quang Ngai (Qua?ng Nga~i), Thua Thien (Thu+`a Thie^n) and in some southern provinces. Nguyen Cong Hoan (Nguye^~n Co^ng Hoan), a former communist congressman who is a refugee in U.S, said," Although there was no bloodbath in big scale in big cities, but in further and smaller cities, the killing widespread and was under many forms (Al Santoni : “To bear any burden”, 1985). > Methods of killing were the same as the ones communists did apply in the Tet Offensive 1968 and in the years of 1945-1946 at Cau Kieu (Ca^`u Kie^`u), Pho Luu (Pho^’ Lu+.u) in North Vietnam. The victims in 1975 were government functionaries, police, soldiers and members of any party in the South. > How many people were killed in cold blood ? According to the report of professors Karl Jackson of the faculty of political sciences in Berkeley and Jacqueline Desbarats\* of North Western University at Evanston, Illinois, after 3 years of study, this number is about 65,000 who were eliminated from 1975 to 1983. These two researchers have emphasized that many more massacres have not been told. > \*Jacqueline Desbarats and Karl Jackson : “Research among Vietnamese Refugees reveals bloodbath” in The Wall Street Journal, April 1985. “Peacetime bloodbath takes its toll on Vietnam, too” in Los Angeles Times, May 1, 1985. > {snip} > ordered all public servants, soldiers, journalists, professors and teachers, religious people,…to be registered for re-education. In the middle of June 1975, these people must be present in some centers and bring with them some belongings and food stuff “good enough for 30 days”. Each kind of detainees would follow each program of re-education. Lower-ranking officials, non-commissioned officers, soldiers were released after a short re-education period of few days or months. The rest were brought to remote and uninhabitable areas in jungles to get forced hard labor which was means to re-educate enemies of the “people”. Prisoners must clear mines, grub and open uncultivated lands, cut trees, carry woods, transport rocks… Others were brought to swamp areas to dig gutters, to bank rice fields… They were only provided with trivial tools and worked under strict surveillance of the soldiers of the People’s Army (later, these were replaced by the Public Security force). Amnesty International says that Israel has stopped what was labelled as torture. Were those “sworn affadavits” from the same people who swore that saw refrigerator trucks carting bodies away from Jenin? I trust AI for accuracy. Certainly torture is now prohibited by law. I’d imagine that offenses (keeping people tied up and sleep deprived) still exist, but there simply is no “official policy of torture”. Claiming that there is is either a mistake or a purposeful lie. Allegations made in a Belgium court are hardly proof that Sharon was complicit. He _may_ have been. But all that was proven was negligence. That was enough for the Israeli board of inquiry. So, Chump, how long have you stopped beating your wife? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/56 "2003-01-08T17:41:52Z")
Viet Nam???!!! Try again. [http://vc-crimes.virtualave.net/tacs-pg4.htm](http://vc-crimes.virtualave.net/tacs-pg4.htm) > [@](#): > > The aim is to destroy sources of opposition and create an atmosphere of quandary and fear in the populace. Agit-prop machine in previous years during the Vietnam War always repeated the policy of “concord and reconciliation” (Ho`a ho+.p va` ho`a gia?i) among Vietnamese people with its main principle of “no vengeance”. Some American officials like Senator McGovern believed it saying that a bloodbath (if communists took power) in Vietnam was just a big foul cry.In reality, bloody liquidation done by communists towards their enemies was a frequent practice kept skillfully at low profile in the first days of taking power. > > For example : a massacre occurred in the province Phu Khanh (Phu’ Kha’nh) in the beginning of 4/1975 after the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) withdrew from this province. In the communes (xa~) of Tho Vuc (Tho. Vu+.c), Lu Ba (Lu` Ba), Cay Xop (Ca^y Xo.p), Ho Ngua (Ho^' Ngu+.a) and Cau Dai (Ca^`u Da`i), people found massive graves; one of them contained 223 corpses; another, 85. The victims were often knifed, hammered on head or shot to death. In the same province of Phu Khanh, 373 persons were killed by machine guns. Their bodies were found tied together, floating on the river Darang (so^ng DDa` Ra\<`ng). Massacres during the night were reported in many remote places in the provinces of Quang Nam (Qua?ng Nam), Quang Ngai (Qua?ng Nga~i), Thua Thien (Thu+`a Thie^n) and in some southern provinces. Nguyen Cong Hoan (Nguye^~n Co^ng Hoan), a former communist congressman who is a refugee in U.S, said," Although there was no bloodbath in big scale in big cities, but in further and smaller cities, the killing widespread and was under many forms (Al Santoni : “To bear any burden”, 1985). > Methods of killing were the same as the ones communists did apply in the Tet Offensive 1968 and in the years of 1945-1946 at Cau Kieu (Ca^`u Kie^`u), Pho Luu (Pho^’ Lu+.u) in North Vietnam. The victims in 1975 were government functionaries, police, soldiers and members of any party in the South. > How many people were killed in cold blood ? According to the report of professors Karl Jackson of the faculty of political sciences in Berkeley and Jacqueline Desbarats\* of North Western University at Evanston, Illinois, after 3 years of study, this number is about 65,000 who were eliminated from 1975 to 1983. These two researchers have emphasized that many more massacres have not been told. > \*Jacqueline Desbarats and Karl Jackson : “Research among Vietnamese Refugees reveals bloodbath” in The Wall Street Journal, April 1985. “Peacetime bloodbath takes its toll on Vietnam, too” in Los Angeles Times, May 1, 1985. > {snip} > ordered all public servants, soldiers, journalists, professors and teachers, religious people,…to be registered for re-education. In the middle of June 1975, these people must be present in some centers and bring with them some belongings and food stuff “good enough for 30 days”. Each kind of detainees would follow each program of re-education. Lower-ranking officials, non-commissioned officers, soldiers were released after a short re-education period of few days or months. The rest were brought to remote and uninhabitable areas in jungles to get forced hard labor which was means to re-educate enemies of the “people”. Prisoners must clear mines, grub and open uncultivated lands, cut trees, carry woods, transport rocks… Others were brought to swamp areas to dig gutters, to bank rice fields… They were only provided with trivial tools and worked under strict surveillance of the soldiers of the People’s Army (later, these were replaced by the Public Security force). Amnesty International says that Israel has stopped what was labelled as torture. Were those “sworn affadavits” from the same people who swore that saw refrigerator trucks carting bodies away from Jenin? I trust AI for accuracy. Certainly torture is now prohibited by law. I’d imagine that offenses (keeping people tied up and sleep deprived) still exist, but there simply is no “official policy of torture”. Claiming that there is is either a mistake or a purposeful lie. Allegations made in a Belgium court are hardly proof that Sharon was complicit. He _may_ have been. But all that was proven was negligence. That was enough for the Israeli board of inquiry. So, Chump, how long have you stopped beating your wife? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/57 "2003-01-08T18:38:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rampisad \* > **You picked some real good ones there - the BBC has been selected for two years running as the most biased media site in the world when it comes to Israel. To give an example that may have some sense to you - the IRA are called “terrorists”, Hamas and the rest of the murderes are called “freedom fighters”. And Europe, of course : the epitome of even-handedness. Where do you think the PLO’s money comes from? Where has there been a peak of anti-Semitic attacks in 2002? Mexico? Australia? France? - you choose.** [Analysis: Who is a terrorist?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1693876.stm) > [@](#): > > What Hamas do is terrorism by any definition - the deliberate murder of the innocent, civilian and military alike, in pursuit of political objectives. Repeat after me, “[honestreporting.com](http://honestreporting.com) is not a news source”, “[honestreporting.com](http://honestreporting.com) is not a news source”… When you get done with that, then you can work on “[honestreporting.com](http://honestreporting.com) is not an impartial news watchdog”… You might also want to watch where you throw that “Hate the Jews” crap. It won’t do a lot of sticking to your favorite targets. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_B.Goode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Johnny\_B.Goode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_B.Goode)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/58 "2003-01-08T18:41:42Z")
I’m not speaking up for the record of the Vietnamese in general, but Chumpsky’s assertion regards the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia between Decemeber 1978 and Spetember 1989, not actions taken domestically in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/59 "2003-01-08T20:49:51Z")
DMC I tried your mantra, but it keeps on coming out “BBC is not an unbiased news source”, “BBC is not an unbiased news source”. Funny thing that. Out of a whole page, you managed to pick a single sentence that makes an unequivocal statement, without mentioning (in passing perhaps) that the source is not a BBC policy document, but is an extract of a presentation **by an independant producer** and is preceded by the following … > [@](#): > > The father of one young suicide bomber, who blew himself up killing two Israeli soldiers, told us he had no idea his son was a supporter of Hamas until after the attack had taken place. > > “I am proud of what he did. He did it for God and our people,” he said. > > The dead boy is a martyr in his community. His parents are venerated for their sacrifice. You can obfuscate all you like, but the BBC still does not call Hamas terrorists, but referred to IRA as terrrorists. Until you can explain the difference, your argument stinks. Anyhow, when or where have I said [honestreporting.com](http://honestreporting.com) is unbiased or is even a news source. It has its own declared purpose and is not funded by any taxpayers. The BBC on the other hand is, and has a Charter that clearly sets out its **requirement** to be fair and impartial. It is neither, wrt Israeli matters. BTW if the shit sticks, it has found its natural home! ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729/60 "2003-01-09T00:47:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rampisad \* > **Funny thing that. Out of a whole page, you managed to pick a single sentence that makes an unequivocal statement, without mentioning (in passing perhaps) that the source is not a BBC policy document, but is an extract of a presentation by an independant producer and is preceded by the following …** [Allan Little: “Indenpendant” producer.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/2278536.stm) :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\*The father of one young suicide bomber, who blew himself up killing two Israeli soldiers, told us he had no idea his son was a supporter of Hamas until after the attack had taken place. > > “I am proud of what he did. He did it for God and our people,” he said. > > The dead boy is a martyr in his community. His parents are venerated for their sacrifice.\*\* Hmm, so we have reporting of facts and a quote from someone who is not in any way affiliated with the BBC. Do you notice the last line says “martyr in his community”, not “martyr in the eyes of the BBC”, or should they just not quote Palestinians? > [@](#): > > **You can obfuscate all you like, but the BBC still does not call Hamas terrorists, but referred to IRA as terrrorists. Until you can explain the difference, your argument stinks.** No, they usually refer to them as militants, which is what one would expect from a news source who isn’t taking sides. They are definitely militants, no matter where you stand. The BBS also doesn’t refer to the IDF as terrorists, so I’d say they are balancing the sides quite well. > [@](#): > > **Anyhow, when or where have I said [honestreporting.com](http://honestreporting.com) is unbiased or is even a news source. It has its own declared purpose and is not funded by any taxpayers. The BBC on the other hand is, and has a Charter that clearly sets out its requirement to be fair and impartial. It is neither, wrt Israeli matters.** I keep forgetting that they are a “media watch group”, not a news source, so I’ll retract that. They do happen to be a “media watch group” that you take seriously and support. So, are they biased or not? > [@](#): > > \*\*BTW if the shit sticks, it has found its natural home! \*\* Unless you want to point out where the Jew-haters are, the shit won’t be travelling far to get home. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israeli-terrorism-have-the-abused-become-the-abusers/146729.md?page=4)