# Israelis Illegally Taking Arab Land and Restricting Acess? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866 "2015-02-28T18:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/41 "2015-03-02T18:22:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It’s true that “right of conquest” isn’t much respected these days. > > But who does have the best claim to the West Bank? Seems to me that Jordan has the strongest legal claim…and they don’t want it. That leaves either the Palestinian Authority – which isn’t a nation . . . But the Palestinians are a nation, a stateless nation. Theirs is the best claim. They’ve been living there forever, they are descendants of every people who has ever occupied Canaan, including the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/42 "2015-03-02T21:24:48Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Why would Israelis do this? It’s almost as if they don’t trust the Palestinians to be good neighbors. Weird, huh? Then the question becomes: are they bad neighbors because of what Israel has done or are they simply bad people? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/43 "2015-03-02T21:51:12Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Then the question becomes: are they bad neighbors because of what Israel has done or are they simply bad people? Why are those the only choices? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/44 "2015-03-02T21:56:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why are those the only choices? Its to reflect the range of options in Grotonian’s post that I responded to ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/45 "2015-03-02T22:39:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Then the question becomes: are they bad neighbors because of what Israel has done or are they simply bad people? What difference does it make? If someone wants to kill me, and nothing I do will make him stop, who cares why he hates me? It’s not as if I’m going to stop defending myself. I’m willing to make peace, but I’m not willing to die. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/46 "2015-03-02T22:41:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its to reflect the range of options in Grotonian’s post that I responded to I can’t see anything in his post that limits the range of options. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/47 "2015-03-02T22:49:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But the Palestinians are a nation, a stateless nation. Theirs is the best claim. They’ve been living there forever, they are descendants of every people who has ever occupied Canaan, including the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. Stateless nations lack some of the mechanisms useful in exercising sovereignty. The lack of recognition from their neighbors is a serious handicap. The most critical thing a stateless nation lacks is defined borders. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/48 "2015-03-03T04:44:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What difference does it make? > > If someone wants to kill me, and nothing I do will make him stop, who cares why he hates me? It’s not as if I’m going to stop defending myself. > > I’m willing to make peace, but I’m not willing to die. You’re assuming nothing will make him stop. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t see anything in his post that limits the range of options. Then there was no limit to the options I presented either ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/49 "2015-03-03T04:48:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What difference does it make? > > If someone wants to kill me, and nothing I do will make him stop, who cares why he hates me? It’s not as if I’m going to stop defending myself. > > I’m willing to make peace, but I’m not willing to die. But what if the things you do make his friends want to kill you? How do you make them stop? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/50 "2015-03-03T04:56:17Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > But what if the things you do make his friends want to kill you? How do you make them stop? At this very simple and hypothetical level, I don’t care. I do what I have to, in order to survive. If that makes someone else want to kill me, I’ll have to deal with that when the time comes. If you’re about to be killed by a member of a violent drug gang, and you have a gun and can defend yourself, do you refrain from shooting him…because the rest of the gang will then come after you? Great: he kills you. What, exactly, have you gained? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/51 "2015-03-03T05:26:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > At this very simple and hypothetical level, I don’t care. I do what I have to, in order to survive. If that makes someone else want to kill me, I’ll have to deal with that when the time comes. > > If you’re about to be killed by a member of a violent drug gang, and you have a gun and can defend yourself, do you refrain from shooting him…because the rest of the gang will then come after you? Great: he kills you. What, exactly, have you gained? It might be more apropos to kill the gang member and then go kill his family for allowing him to become a gang member. Then you seize the family’s house and give it to one of your family members. Finally you wonder why the gang member’s extended family is pissed and coming after you. And the cycle repeats. More seriously, it’s a tough situation. There are definitely Arabs that have no desire for peace and want to kill as many Israelis as possible; Israel must be allowed to defend itself. On the other side, Israel’s responses are inappropriate and are absolutely making the problem worse. There is no excuse for the gradual encroachment in the West Bank. There are plenty of Palestinians who want a stable and peaceful resolution. Israel has removed their voice. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/52 "2015-03-03T06:21:30Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > . . . There are plenty of Palestinians who want a stable and peaceful resolution. Israel has removed their voice. Not Israel alone, by any means. Palestinian-on-Palestinian violence, and the murder of many accused of collaboration, has also helped inflame hatreds. Also, even among those who honestly do want a stable and peaceful solution, how many (on either side) are willing to accept a result that the other side could possibly agree to? Even if all the extremists died tomorrow, could even the moderates find a way past the question of the Right of Return or the status of Jerusalem? The questions are so thorny, even the good guys can’t figure out answers to them! ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/53 "2015-03-03T06:42:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If you’re about to be killed by a member of a violent drug gang, and you have a gun and can defend yourself, do you refrain from shooting him…because the rest of the gang will then come after you? Great: he kills you. What, exactly, have you gained? What if someone you knew has been killed to be killed by a member of a violent drug gang. But you can’t actually identify who is a gang member and who isn’t. So you go downtown and you shoot 6 people at random. Then you shoot all the police. Then you steal the most valuable real estate you can find. Then you sell it an use the money to buy guns. Will that result in long-term peace? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/54 "2015-03-03T11:30:24Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Are some Israelis illegally taking land from the Arabs and restricting Arabs access to their own land? No. They’re doing this to _Palestinians._ Which, despite what you may have heard, actually exist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/55 "2015-03-03T15:58:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Stateless nations lack some of the mechanisms useful in exercising sovereignty. The lack of recognition from their neighbors is a serious handicap. > > The most critical thing a stateless nation lacks is defined borders. Here in the U.S. we have some **quasi** -stateless nations, those surviving Indian nations that still have some kind of organization. Their tribal governments are conquered dependencies of the U.S. but still have enough theoretical sovereignty to, e.g., get away with running casinos regardless of state law. Despite this, Indians can also vote in state and federal elections. Of course, that’s not a model that’s ever going to work in Israel/Palestine – it depends on the conquered dependencies being to too powerless and their people too few to aspire either to rule the whole country or to gain real independence from it. The Palestinians are never going to just give up and accept the rule of an Israeli government in which they have no voice; and if they are given a voice, representation in the Knesset, they might try to use it to take over – they are not comparatively numerous enough to do so, but that might change in a few decades, and then is Israel really a Jewish state/homeland any more? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/56 "2015-03-03T17:55:43Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > It depends on what you mean by “illegal”. By (some) Israeli standards what is happening in the West Bank is not illegal. Most of the UN, however, thinks otherwise. One of the tactics is to set up checkpoints and road blocks to make it difficult (or impossible) for Palestinians to access their farmland. Then Israel seizes the land under a law that says that land that is “abandoned” for a while (two years?) is liable to be taken by the government. You can read more about it at [B’Tselem](http://www.btselem.org/area_c/taking_over_land) (a Jewish human rights group). > > What is happening in the West Bank now is similar to what the US did to Native Americans during the 1800’s. And this post answers my other question. I now know what the guy was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/57 "2015-03-03T17:58:15Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Are some Israelis illegally taking land from the Arabs and restricting Arabs access to their own land? Nope. Not at all. Asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/58 "2015-03-03T18:17:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, that’s not a model that’s ever going to work in Israel/Palestine – it depends on the conquered dependencies being to too powerless and their people too few to aspire either to rule the whole country or to gain real independence from it. The Palestinians are never going to just give up and accept the rule of an Israeli government in which they have no voice; and if they are given a voice, representation in the Knesset, they might try to use it to take over – they are not comparatively numerous enough to do so, but that might change in a few decades, **and then is Israel really a Jewish state/homeland any more?** My emphasis. I really think one of the biggest obstacles coming from the Israeli side is this insistence that any recognition come with this stipulation. IMHO, they should drop this demand if they are serious about peace. I think the extreme situation of poverty, corruption, crime, and the other problems facing the Palestinians is a big factor in their extremism. Given 20 or 30 years of equal representation in Israeli government, I don’t believe there will be a significant call to exterminate anybody, certainly not any more to the extent that we still have extremists here in the US. But the fact that they would be reminded every day that they are not true partners in a united Israeli government does not help things. Israel should just strive to be a government, not THE Jewish homeland. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/59 "2015-03-03T21:09:07Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Nope. Not at all. > Asked and answered. You can’t be serious? The posts say that Israel is setting up tactics and roadblocks for the Palestinians to access their land, and that, consequently Israel considers that land abandoned and occupy it. So the answers are yes and yes. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866/60 "2015-03-03T21:13:45Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > What if someone you knew has been killed to be killed by a member of a violent drug gang. But you can’t actually identify who is a gang member and who isn’t. So you go downtown and you shoot 6 people at random. . . . Only an idiot would do that. (Please don’t bother going forward with this.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-illegally-taking-arab-land-and-restricting-acess/713866.md?page=4)