# Israelis to build Museum of Tolerance on top of Islamic Cemetery **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 15, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829 "2006-09-15T13:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/61 "2006-09-15T20:29:35Z")
[QUOTE=John Corrado] But throwing your hands in the air and saying, “Oh, the horrible Israelis! They should just eat it in order to avoid pissing off Muslims!” doesn’t seem like a sensible solution, either. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t seem very tolerant either. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/62 "2006-09-15T20:30:23Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] I would retract the “dirty stinking” part, if I had ever said it. [/QUOTE] So, question for you: Since it’s obvious, just from the sections you’ve quoted to put together an incomplete portrait of the situation, that the ‘culprit’ here, the one ordering the digging up of the ‘graveyard’ and who is currently suing for the right to do so, is the Simon Weisenthal Center, an **American** non-profit center mostly funded by **Americans** - which you mention directly in your OP… _why the fuck is the title of this thread “Israelis to build”?_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/63 "2006-09-15T20:32:12Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Doesn’t seem very tolerant either. [/QUOTE] You’re right; you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/64 "2006-09-15T20:34:25Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Your point is good and sound, I was not aware that Muslims opposed moving remains. Is it strong resistance or the resistance that the average Jewish or Christian person would feel? [/quote] I wouldn’t know how strong an issue it is, nor what is the religiou basis for it, I only know it’s a recurrent issue with muslims dying in France. > [@](#): > > Of course you know that was directed only at fear itself. I have already stated I am not Jewish or Muslim and that I am not religious at all. I wonder if \*\*fear itself \*\* does dislike or hate Jews. His Op of half-truth leads me to such conclusions. > BTW: you said “We”, are you and \*\*Fear itself \*\* Muslims? > > Jim Because this also is a recurrent issue when Israel is criticized. Did he say anything about Jews? Why would you assume such a thing? Why couldn’t I equally assume that all posters who disagree with the OP do that because they’re racists who hate Arabs? Why wouldn’t I make such thinly veiled accusation? It’s not like there’s a lack of harsh criticism of both muslim countries and the muslim religion on this board. Are half of you racists? If you perceive yourself as neutral, do every harh statement about Islam leads you to post an accusation of racism? If not, why not? Because you don’t like the Arabs yourself, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/65 "2006-09-15T20:36:46Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] What **Cheesesteak** says. How is it dreadful to build a museum on where Aunt Fatima used to be buried, but not to park a Buick on her chest? Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] So long as you don’t dig her up. [they are cool with that](http://www.islam-pure.de/imam/fatwas/practical02.htm): > [@](#): > > **Question 278** : There are four graves in the way of one of the roads which obstruct its continuity. As there are shar’i problems involved in the opening of the graves, please guide us regarding what needs to be done so that the municipal authority does not commit an act violating Islamic law. > > A: If the building of the road does not require digging up or opening the graves and it is possible to build the road above them, or if it is necessary that the road be built where the graves are located, then there is no problem involved. Otherwise it is not permissible to build the road over the graves. I can understand that you find that inconsistent, but tolerance sometimes requires that we accept the beliefs of others even when the don’t make sense to us. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/66 "2006-09-15T20:39:20Z")
[QUOTE=John Corrado] You’re right; you don’t. [/QUOTE] “I know you are, but what am I?” Is that what you are reduced to? What’s next, “I’m rubber you’re glue!” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/67 "2006-09-15T20:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Corrado] getting the current site approved may be the difference between getting it built and going back to fundraising for another five years to hire new architects and construction firms. [/QUOTE] So? It doesn’t seem a bad idea to me. It certainly beats a controversial “museum of tolerance” that actually causes discord. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/68 "2006-09-15T20:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] _In September 2000 construction began on a highway-bridge through the ancient Basatin Jewish cemetery in Cairo. Cooperation and funding were provided by the Egyptian Ministry of Housing and an American ultra-Orthodox Jewish Athra Kadisha group. \*\* The plans will not harm any tombs and it will honor Jewish law concerning cemeteries \*\* ._ [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. What if it harmed tombs and didn’t honor Jewish law concerning cemeteries? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/69 "2006-09-15T20:48:24Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] I wouldn’t know how strong an issue it is, nor what is the religiou basis for it, I only know it’s a recurrent issue with muslims dying in France. … Because this also is a recurrent issue when Israel is criticized. Did he say anything about Jews? Why would you assume such a thing? Why couldn’t I equally assume that all posters who disagree with the OP do that because they’re racists who hate Arabs? Why wouldn’t I make such thinly veiled accusation? It’s not like there’s a lack of harsh criticism of both muslim countries and the muslim religion on this board. Are half of you racists? If you perceive yourself as neutral, do every harh statement about Islam leads you to post an accusation of racism? If not, why not? Because you don’t like the Arabs yourself, maybe? [/QUOTE] Again, he took a balanced news story and presented only the half that suited his diatribe against Israel and the Weisenthal Center. If he had presented a fair argument and examples like you did, I would never have suspected a secret agenda. I happened to have listened to the story on the way in today and so I responded to the omissions. Your question about whether I defend anti-Arab posts are fair, but in all honesty I would if the Op only gave half the story and I knew the other half. I spent a long pit thread defending Al Sharpton\* against almost every other poster. Including many I consider friends. I actually am very even handed about my objections. I am generally anti-religion, but I do not dismiss any religion out of hand. Do you really think the Op was well constructed or fairly stated, given the other side of the story? Do you understand why it is hard to get to upset with the “Israelis” for building on a parking lot. It was the Museum that stopped building and tried to everything correctly. They are now in a no win situation where the objections may be objections for the sake of objecting. Jim - not a Muslim, but a commonly hated figure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/70 "2006-09-15T20:54:21Z")
So I take it my O’Hare cite is being accepted without comment? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/71 "2006-09-15T20:57:10Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] So I take it my O’Hare cite is being accepted without comment? [/QUOTE] I think \*\*Fear \*\* either missed it or ignored it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/72 "2006-09-15T21:04:20Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Apparently, though, they’re not opposed to parking cars on their dead. I learn something every day. [/QUOTE] Were they asked if they liked it when the cemetery was razed, apparently in \*\* 1948 \*\* ? Somehow I suspect not. Besides, though I wouldn’t know, moving the remains migt indeed be a more serious issue than parking cars on top of the tombs. Finally, your argument sounds to me like “we’ve already disrespected the graves, so why not disrepect them some more?” By the way, I already mentionned the parallel with amerindian burial grounds. Are those only an issue when they’re recent and well remembered, or also when forgotten and ancient sites are discovered? I believe it’s the latter. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/73 "2006-09-15T21:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=John Corrado] - offering a fair settlement to American Indians that would respect their ancestors and their beliefs, and continuing to build my museum knowing that I had given plenty of fair chances for objections to be raised at prior community hearings [/quote] But what if the aggravated party thinks that your proposal _doesn’t_ respect their ancestors and their beliefs regardless how reasonnable it seems to you? What if they _don’t think_ it’s fair? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/74 "2006-09-15T21:22:26Z")
[QUOTE=FrantzJ] This doesn’t necessarily make me feel good, but it makes me think about the practicalities: can we essentially zone off every place someone is ever buries for the rest of eternity? Does my school have no right to exist? [/QUOTE] I remember this issue being discussed on this board, and I don’t remember any accusation of racism against amerindians being used in the arguments. And once again, what if, instead of a school, it was a “Center for Intercultural Understanding”? Wouldn’t it appear nonsentical? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/75 "2006-09-15T21:24:06Z")
But Clairobscur, are you stating–like Fear Itself did–that it’s not surprising that Muslims hate Israelis, when they do stuff like build museums on forgotten cemetaries, and when the workers find the cemetaries they stop work, and only when the museum construction crew notifies people that there are muslims buried there do the muslims start crying about it? It is an interesting story, and how the issue should be resolved is pretty difficult. But \*\*Fear Itself \*\* presented the story in such a biased, dickish way, that I find it hard to believe he actually read the story in a newspaper or heard it on the radio. Or maybe he’s like Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter and only hears what he wants to hear? So are Israeli’s assholes for building a museum and stopping when they find an abandoned cemetary? Are they assholes for asking what kind of accomadation can be reached? Or is any Israeli building project the work of assholes, because they shouldn’t even be in Jerusalem in the first place? Or what? Who’s the asshole here? Besides **Fear Itself** , I mean? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/76 "2006-09-15T21:29:56Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] Besides, though I wouldn’t know, moving the remains migt indeed be a more serious issue than parking cars on top of the tombs. . [/QUOTE] And reading the previous post that refers to Sharia law, it seems to be actually the case. So, there’s no “fair compromise” that would be respectful for muslim religious sensibilities here. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/77 "2006-09-15T21:40:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] So I take it my O’Hare cite is being accepted without comment? [/QUOTE] Missed it. [QUOTE=John Corrado] why the fuck is the title of this thread “Israelis to build”? [/QUOTE] Because the Wiesenthal Center has [offices in Jerusalem](http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242619), staffed by Israelis, who will be more closely involved in the project than those in the LA office. But, if it makes you feel better, I will change the title of my OP to the “The Simon Wiesenthal Center to build…” but I don’t think it will fit. [QUOTE=Lemur866] So are Israeli’s assholes for building a museum and stopping when they find an abandoned cemetary? Are they assholes for asking what kind of accomadation can be reached? Or is any Israeli building project the work of assholes, because they shouldn’t even be in Jerusalem in the first place? Or what? [/QUOTE] The Wiesenthal Center is intolerant for not offering to cease development on the cite occupied by Muslim graves. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/78 "2006-09-15T21:44:19Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] But Clairobscur, are you stating–like Fear Itself did–that it’s not surprising that Muslims hate Israelis, [/QUOTE] This part, as far as i remember, is the only objectionnable sentence in the OP. But you know, I’ve read so much shit stated about Arabs and muslims on this board with barely anybody (or just plainly nobody) protesting, that you won’t convince me that there isn’t an elephant-sized double standart here that people are ignoring, either beliberately, or, more likely and more dissapointingly, because they just don’t notice it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/79 "2006-09-15T21:58:40Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] So I take it my O’Hare cite is being accepted without comment? [/QUOTE] Congratulations. The FAA is just as intolerant as the Simon Wiesenthal Center. But tolerance is not in their charter, so I guess we can’t hold them to the higher standard espoused by the Wiesenthal Center. And I still maintain that is does not happen all the time, though I give you props for finding a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829/80 "2006-09-15T22:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Section 27-43-20. Removal to plot agreeable to governing body and relatives; board may determine suitable plot in case of disagreement. > > The plot to which the graves are removed shall be one which is mutually agreeable between the governing body of the county or municipality and the relatives of the deceased persons. If a suitable plot cannot be agreed upon between the parties concerned the matter shall be finally determined by a board of three members which shall be convened within fifteen days after final disagreement on the new location of the plot. The board shall be appointed as follows: One member shall be appointed by the county or municipality, one member shall be appointed by the relatives, and a third member shall be selected by the two. The decision of the board shall be final. [QUOTE=Fear Itself] I’ve read your cite, and haven’t found an implication as strong as you described. However, your cite of S. Carolina law [turned this up](http://www.chicora.org/sc_cemetery_law.htm#Burial%20and%20Cemetery%20Laws%20in%20O):Now, that leaves open the _possibility_ that the county representative and the mutually selected representative _could_ overrule the representative of the relatives, but it hardly implies that it happens all the time. I would still like to see a case where it happened at all. [/QUOTE] **Fear itself** , you are misinterpreting the cite. It is about where to put the bodies after removal. It is not at all related to needing permission to remove the body. In fact, **Brian Ecker** ’s is explicit. Permission of family members is NOT required, and not even requested. Here is the relevant portion: > [@](#): > > (1) It is necessary and expedient in the opinion of the governing body of the county or municipality in which the cemetery or burying ground is situated to remove the graves. The governing body shall consider objections to removal pursuant to the notice under item (2) or otherwise before it approves removal. > > (2) Thirty days’ notice of removal is given to the relatives of the deceased persons buried in the graves, if they are known. If no relatives are known, thirty days’ notice must be published in a newspaper of general circulation in the county where the property lies. If no newspaper is published in the county, notice must be posted in three prominent places in the county, one of which must be the courthouse door. > > (3) Due care is taken to protect tombstones and replace them properly, so as to leave the graves in as good condition as before removal. IE, the government must at minimum publish a 30 day notice of their intent to disinter the bodies, and schedule a hearing to listen to any objections from family members of the deceased. That’s it, and assuming they keep to the minimal procedurak standards of excavating graves, they can go right ahead. It might be argued that there is a further obligation to make a greater attempt to notify surviving family members, but only if they are know, which would suggest this occasionally happens to fairly recent graves. I would interpret this, however, as providing an oppotunity to the family to move the body to a place of their own choosing, rather than some relatively anonymous location chosen by the government. Because the family certainly can’t stop it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israelis-to-build-museum-of-tolerance-on-top-of-islamic-cemetery/372829.md?page=5)