# "Israel's existence is illegal, therefore it should vanish?" (focusing on one argument only) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675 "2019-07-26T16:52:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/1 "2019-07-26T16:52:04Z")
Trying to sidestep the whole sprawling mess that is the Israel-Palestine issue and just asking about one specific particular thing: AIUI, most Palestinians just want their own independent Palestine nation. But there are a few who hold the argument that “Israel’s coming-into-existence in 1947 was an illegal seizure of our land, therefore, Israel has no right to exist, and ought to vanish into thin air,” right? Is that a fair assessment of how these (few) think? If so, is that a case of a “technically logical, but practically un-doable” stance? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/2 "2019-07-26T16:55:15Z")
If it _was_ legal, would that make everything OK? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/3 "2019-07-26T17:09:07Z")
The counter argument could be made that what is now Israel was bestowed upon those people by God himself. What could be more legal than that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/4 "2019-07-26T17:09:50Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The counter argument could be made that what is now Israel was bestowed upon those people by God himself. What could be more legal than that? Any other argument on earth. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/5 "2019-07-26T17:11:03Z")
I’m positive you could find “a few” people who agree with anything you care to name, whether it make sense or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/6 "2019-07-26T17:20:26Z")
If the existence of Israel is illegal, who determines that and enforces it? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/7 "2019-07-26T17:23:58Z")
A valid argument is in the eye of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/8 "2019-07-26T17:31:34Z")
The existence of Israel is about as legal as any modern country. It was approved by the U.N. over the objections of others, and there is really no court that has appropriate jurisdiction to declare otherwise. As a practical matter, they stand ready to, and are quite capable of, defending their country. Possibly with nuclear weapons if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/9 "2019-07-26T17:32:37Z")
Oh, now let’s not get into that whole thing about who took what from whom. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/10 "2019-07-26T17:34:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Trying to sidestep the whole sprawling mess that is the Israel-Palestine issue Oh, sure - that will work :dubious:. > [@](#): > > If so, is that a case of a “technically logical, but practically un-doable” stance? It’s technically logical if you buy the premise, which if this thread doesn’t die a quick death will probably attract multiple pages of dueling cites and bloviation as folks argue over it for the nth time. But it’s undoable yes, as well as morally untenable IMO. I’m not entirely sure what you expect from this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/11 "2019-07-26T17:35:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Oh, now let’s not get into that whole thing about who took what from whom. Right - not getting into that whole mess, as stipulated in OP. Just asking if it is true that indeed, a sizable minority of Palestinians think this way - that they still want Israel to vanish from existence. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/12 "2019-07-26T17:44:27Z")
Didn’t they get the land by buying it from the previous owners? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/13 "2019-07-26T17:44:36Z")
Let’s posit for a moment the creation of Israel was illegal, so what? It’s currently enjoying an existence as a modern state. It’s people have been living there for decades. Who the hell is going to go to Israel and evict them? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/14 "2019-07-26T17:52:32Z")
Even if you knew how many Palestinians thought this way, you would not know if they would think this way if they were granted some of their lesser demands such as having an independent nation. Perhaps the Palestinians who make this argument are doing so as a means to an end. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/15 "2019-07-26T17:54:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > … > > Is that a fair assessment of how these (few) think? If so, is that a case of a “technically logical, but practically un-doable” stance? Something that’s wrong can still be “technically logical”, meaning if it was created illegally then one possible logical argument is that it can be un-created. It wasn’t created illegally, though, so even though it might be a logical argument (maybe?) it’s still wrong. Later, though, you are asking whether there are some Palestinians that make this argument – that seems like a completely different question than the OP. Which are you trying to answer? I’m sure there are some who make that argument, some who would be happy with the status quo because their set up in the West Bank or wherever is acceptable to them, some who want their own country, some who already live in Israel and have a nice home and job and would like to keep that, some who would rather not have any Jews at all on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/16 "2019-07-26T18:00:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Just asking if it is true that indeed, a sizable minority of Palestinians think this way - that they still want Israel to vanish from existence. Probably as many as there are Israelis that wish the same would happen to them. ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/17 "2019-07-26T18:01:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Just asking if it is true that indeed, a sizable minority of Palestinians think this way - that they still want Israel to vanish from existence. Hopefully I don’t need a cite to support the assertion that [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism) wants Israel to vanish from existence. The fact that they received close to 45% of the vote in the [2006 Palestinian legislative election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) would seem so support that a sizable minority of Palestinians agree with that position. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/18 "2019-07-26T18:22:12Z")
Doesn’t really matter. Israel has lived by the only law of nations that matters: To be a nation declare your independence and make it stick. Israel fulfills both parts pretty well. Hamas can believe what it wants - I won’t speculate - but without the will and power to make it happen they might as well wish for unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/19 "2019-07-26T18:37:23Z")
This is like a Sovereign-Citizen approach to the issue, i.e. Israel isn’t legal because the U.N. declaration is in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. It ends with Palestine getting tased. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/20 "2019-07-26T18:41:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This is like a Sovereign-Citizen approach to the issue, i.e. Israel isn’t legal because the U.N. declaration is in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. > > It ends with Palestine getting tased. Ok, but like some SovCits, it is “they are right but nobody would or could give them what they are demanding?” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675.md?page=2)