# "Israel's existence is illegal, therefore it should vanish?" (focusing on one argument only) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675 "2019-07-26T16:52:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/21 "2019-07-26T18:45:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Ok, but like some SovCits, it is “they are right but nobody would or could give them what they are demanding?” I guess some subset of Palestinians are “right” in the same way. Which is to say, entirely delusional. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/22 "2019-07-26T18:47:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Ok, but like some SovCits, it is “they are right but nobody would or could give them what they are demanding?” Can you rephrase this? The SovCits are wrong. Are you asking whether Hamas, for example, is thinking “We’re right but nobody can give us what we demand”? So, the SovCits are wrong. It’s also wrong to say that Israel was formed illegally – they are just as valid of a sovereign state as any other. It’s likely true that some Palestinians think that Israel was formed illegally. Logic doesn’t really enter into it (from the question in your OP). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/23 "2019-07-26T18:49:56Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > If the existence of Israel is illegal, who determines that and enforces it? Other nations, same as any other country or piece of international law. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/24 "2019-07-26T18:52:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Other nations, same as any other country or piece of international law. Like which “other nations”, for example? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/25 "2019-07-26T18:59:36Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Can you rephrase this? The SovCits are wrong. Are you asking whether Hamas, for example, is thinking “We’re right but nobody can give us what we demand”? > > So, the SovCits are wrong. It’s also wrong to say that Israel was formed illegally – they are just as valid of a sovereign state as any other. It’s likely true that some Palestinians think that Israel was formed illegally. Logic doesn’t really enter into it (from the question in your OP). Yeah I should rephrase. What I meant was, sometimes the practical consequences of doing something are so huge that nobody would seriously honor some obscure clause or rule, even if that rule were true. Suppose that SovCits are technically correct in arguing that “because this is gold fringe on the flag, therefore admiralty court” and therefore they don’t have to pay taxes or obey laws - even if technically true, no judge in his/her right mind would honor such a demand because the consequences are vast. So even if the Palestinians were right that Israel’s existence is illegal, no United Nations or international body would seriously eject 7 million Israelis because the practical burden of doing so is immense. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/26 "2019-07-26T19:00:10Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The counter argument could be made that what is now Israel was bestowed upon those people by God himself. What could be more legal than that? I think a better counter-argument is that what is now Israel was bestowed upon those people by the British government, which was the legally recognized owner. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/27 "2019-07-26T19:22:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yeah I should rephrase. What I meant was, sometimes the practical consequences of doing something are so huge that nobody would seriously honor some obscure clause or rule, even if that rule were true. > > Suppose that SovCits are technically correct in arguing that “because this is gold fringe on the flag, therefore admiralty court” and therefore they don’t have to pay taxes or obey laws - even if technically true, no judge in his/her right mind would honor such a demand because the consequences are vast. So even if the Palestinians were right that Israel’s existence is illegal, no United Nations or international body would seriously eject 7 million Israelis because the practical burden of doing so is immense. OK, but unlike the gold fringe stuff, that’s not how sovereignty works. If Israel claims the land and can defend it, and other nations recognize it, then it’s legal. If other nations don’t recognize it and can overwhelm Israel’s defenses, then it’s no longer a country (see the Confederate States of America). There’s no global constitution that wasn’t properly ratified by Ohio or whatever. So, it can’t really be the case that it was formed illegally – it was recognized as British, then recognized as an independent nation called Israel by the United Nations and individually by enough countries so that Israel doesn’t have to fight off the world. Egypt and Syria have tried to claim otherwise in the past, Israel fought them off, and they remain sovereign. The SovCit “logic”, such as it is, doesn’t apply to international relations. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/28 "2019-07-26T19:30:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Ok, but like some SovCits, it is “they are right but nobody would or could give them what they are demanding?” I’ve never heard a SovCit argument that was right, but if their arguments were ever _treated_ as right, it would effectively undo law as we know it (unless we’re somehow deciding that this particular SovCit is a special unique case, which itself is a violation of the concept of equal treatment under the law), and declaring Israel to not be a legal country because of the way it was founded would effectively undo the modern nation-state as we know it (unless we’re somehow deciding that Israel is a special unique case, and I suggest you prepare for war). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/29 "2019-07-26T19:33:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The existence of Israel is about as legal as any modern country. It was approved by the U.N. over the objections of others, and there is really no court that has appropriate jurisdiction to declare otherwise. As a practical matter, they stand ready to, and are quite capable of, defending their country. Possibly with nuclear weapons if necessary. Right, it is as legal as just about any nation. What makes Palestine or Saudi Arabia or Lebanon legal? Hewed out of the old Ottoman Empire by a deal between France and Britain? How was that legal? Ever since Og the caveman the only real argument for legality is “My troops are there and can defend it”. This was proven in those legal cases of "Arabs vs Israel (1948), also Arabs vs Israel (1967) and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/30 "2019-07-26T19:38:15Z")
The claim that so-and-so isn’t a valid country is in fact one that has often been made throughout history. The reason for that claim is generally “because we have more tanks/cavalry/swordsmen/guys with pointy sticks than they do, and we say so”. Sometimes that argument is found to be persuasive, and sometimes it is not. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/31 "2019-07-26T19:55:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The claim that so-and-so isn’t a valid country is in fact one that has often been made throughout history. The reason for that claim is generally “because we have more tanks/cavalry/swordsmen/guys with pointy sticks than they do, and we say so”. Sometimes that argument is found to be persuasive, and sometimes it is not. By the end, one side or the other is usually persuaded. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/32 "2019-07-26T20:02:51Z")
> [@Dahnlor](#): > > Hopefully I don’t need a cite to support the assertion that [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism) wants Israel to vanish from existence. The fact that they received close to 45% of the vote in the [2006 Palestinian legislative election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) would seem so support that a sizable minority of Palestinians agree with that position. I don’t think that logic is very good. People vote for political parties for all kinds of reasons, and often without agreeing with everything that party has ever stood for. As the wiki page you cite makes clear, the top priorities of voters were “1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment.” Given the rest of the exit polling data (e.g., 80% support for peace with Israel), isn’t the more sound conclusion that the people who supported Hamas did so despite its eliminationist views and not because of them? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/33 "2019-07-26T21:04:20Z")
Another point: is there a statute of limitations on what is “legal”? Let’s assume that the 1947 resolution was “illegal.” How far back can we go? Can we go back to an Anglo-Saxon UK because the invasion in 1066 was illegal? If that is too far back, and 1947 isn’t, then what is the limit? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/34 "2019-07-26T21:19:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Didn’t they get the land by buying it from the previous owners? In all seriousness, this is the most shocked I’ve ever been from reading a post on SDMB. Consider that a tribute to your excellent posts on physics. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/35 "2019-07-26T21:52:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Another point: is there a statute of limitations on what is “legal”? Let’s assume that the 1947 resolution was “illegal.” How far back can we go? Can we go back to an Anglo-Saxon UK because the invasion in 1066 was illegal? If that is too far back, and 1947 isn’t, then what is the limit? The limit, like the borders, is what everyone is prepared to recognize and/or go to war over. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/36 "2019-07-26T22:03:15Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > In all seriousness, this is the most shocked I’ve ever been from reading a post on SDMB. Consider that a tribute to your excellent posts on physics. Shocked? Jews did buy land legally after the British took over. [Wiki entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine). That doesn’t have a lot to do with the legality of the state of Israel, which was recognized by both the UN and most of the major powers (both the US and the USSR) which is better than a lot of countries. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/37 "2019-07-26T22:13:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Shocked? I gotta admit, it struck me as vaguely amusing in its potential incorrectness. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/38 "2019-07-26T22:22:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The limit, like the borders, is what everyone is prepared to recognize and/or go to war over. Sure, but this is an argument exercise. The Socratic method, if you will. How long ago is it proper to bitch because someone took your land? 6 months, 5 years, 500 years? What is a principle that would say that 1947 is current enough but that 1066 is not? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/39 "2019-07-26T23:21:43Z")
Hamas softened their stance on Israel when they updated their charter in 2017. They still don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist. ([Cite](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-hamas-document-idUSKBN17X1N8)) > [@](#): > > The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas on Monday dropped its longstanding call for Israel’s destruction, but said it still rejected the country’s right to exist and backs “armed struggle” against it. It’s at least a move from we don’t recognize Israel and are dedicated to its complete destruction. Still that’s the political party that still controls the Gaza strip after the fighting and split between them and the Fatah. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675/40 "2019-07-26T23:31:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Shocked? Jews did buy land legally after the British took over. [Wiki entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine). Yes, and Chinese have bought land legally in San Francisco. But even according to your link, the total purchases were less than 5% of the area of Israel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/israels-existence-is-illegal-therefore-it-should-vanish-focusing-on-one-argument-only/837675.md?page=3)